Low FPS loads ?

[brstevns]

I know this may sound a little silly, but how well do low FPS loads work with PP? I am thinking 1200 to 1400 fps.

[303Guy]

Good question. I have done it a test tube only and the patch came off just fine at the muzzle but the bore was quite rough. I've also had patches stay on intact at low velocity when using a wad - which was the filler, that being wheat bran. Wheat bran filler is not a good idea for light loads using fast powders. But a proper felt wad under the boolit or a smaller case with wheat bran should do it. A 30-30 would be perfect, I should think. A very heavy for caliber boolit helps keep velocity down and peak chamber pressure up.

Here's an example of a light load with a wad. The paper might look a little 'ruffled' but the dirt was scrubbed off the recovered boolit under running water using a toothbrush.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/Patched143gr.jpg

[pdawg_shooter]

I can not see a reason for paper in low velocity-low pressure loads. The whole reason for paper is to get jacketed velocity and accuracy from cast. If I am going to load 1200 or 1300 fps I will lube and load and save the time and effort of patching. Anyone can load at 1200fps with bare lead.

[brstevns]

What if you have a couple 100 already patched and no others?

[barrabruce]

2.4 grains bulleye with a tuft of dacron and a PP 170-180 grner will give you about 500 fps in a 30-30.

The patch comes of in a big strips in mine and you can see it sort of unroll FooF off.
The bullet is a grey blurr.

Don't know why y'd bother!!!
Could use it for ?????

Plain lead with a rub of car grease of ear wax'd be just as good and no troubles.

I just melt mine back down.

Barra

[geargnasher]

I can not see a reason for paper in low velocity-low pressure loads. The whole reason for paper is to get jacketed velocity and accuracy from cast. If I am going to load 1200 or 1300 fps I will lube and load and save the time and effort of patching. Anyone can load at 1200fps with bare lead.

+1

If you do it right, you can get 1200 fps with PURE bare lead.

Gear

[303Guy]

But the question still remains - can it be done? I think it does pose new challenges but it can be done but my attempts were not accarate but then I went about it the wrong way. With my worn bore I found a minimum velocity/pressure that would confetti the patch which was closer to 1500fps but it worked. A harder alloy might work at lower velocity and pressure or a load that leaves the patch intact could be tried. Mine were not intentional.

[brstevns]

Looks as if it is one of those try and see things. It does sounds as if it can be done.

[longbow]

As an observation, the BP guys do it all the time with great success.

Most BP loads for PP boolits are quite low velocity in comparison to smokeless PP boolit loads.

If it works for them it should work for you. Agreed that you don't need PP boolits for low velocities but if that is what you have and want to load light what can it hurt?

[DIRT Farmer]

I have started playing with the idea when it was ask some time back. In my Gibbs and Volenteer .451s I have gotten away with shooting some much lighter castings than they were designed for. I have yet to figure why I need 550 grains of lead to practice at the 100 yard range behind the house and both guns roar at full load, gotta consider the folks next door (1/4) mile away.
What I have found is reasonable results at around 1000 to 1200 fps in the ole Savage 2 grouve 303 but need more work.
Why do it, #1 because I can #2 quiter load, see above. #3 why use all of that powder just to kill a piece of paper. #4 to see if I can get a 600 to 700 fps load with the lyman 313-249 85 grn for squirellhunting with a paper patch (why, see #1). And yes they are a bear to patch.

[geargnasher]

Sorry for the tangent, BR, didn't mean to question the question. I just fired a few popgun loads in my .45 Colt NEF last night to test patch sizing and pressure, used five grains of Unique to launch a 340-grain, .448" slug wet-patched with notebook paper, then tried a few more dry-patched and without lube. The wet patched one carried the patch about 15 yards downrange, the dry patched ones made confetti at the muzzle. I think low-velocity stuff should probably use dry patches to minimize sticking to the boolit. just like the BP people do.

I'm guessing this boolit was going 550-600 fps.

Gear

[longbow]

DIRT Farmer:

I cast and patched up some smooth 100 gr. boolits for .303. They were bad enough to patch. 85 gr. must be even worse!

I am going to try some about 125 to 130 grs.

Longbow

[brstevns]

Sorry for the tangent, BR, didn't mean to question the question. I just fired a few popgun loads in my .45 Colt NEF last night to test patch sizing and pressure, used five grains of Unique to launch a 340-grain, .448" slug wet-patched with notebook paper, then tried a few more dry-patched and without lube. The wet patched one carried the patch about 15 yards downrange, the dry patched ones made confetti at the muzzle. I think low-velocity stuff should probably use dry patches to minimize sticking to the boolit. just like the BP people do.

I'm guessing this boolit was going 550-600 fps.

Gear

Hey not a problem, I am always interested in what others have to say. That is one of the things that makes this forum so great.

[brstevns]

DIRT Farmer:

I cast and patched up some smooth 100 gr. boolits for .303. They were bad enough to patch. 85 gr. must be even worse!

I am going to try some about 125 to 130 grs.

Longbow

You should try 22 cal 55gr bullets now we are talking fun!!!!!!

[longbow]

No thanks!

I don't mind the 180 gr. .30 cal but much shorter gets to be trouble for me. Add in smaller diameter too... I don't think so.

Keep us posted on the low velocity experiments. I bet they work just fine.

Gear:

Were those smooth or GG boolits sized to suit? Just wondering if GG if that maybe helped hang onto the patch a bit. I have always wondered about the patch lapping the lube grooves as it won't cut so makes a bit of a flap that has to tear. At high velocity likely no problem.

[303Guy]

I went down to 141gr for a lightweight plinker. That's pretty small for patching. Patching a 121gr 25 is not too bad as it has reasonable length.

BP paper patching seems to be a different animal altogether. Black powder has a very rapid initial pressure rise it seems. Much faster than smokeless but the peak pressure is much lower.

[geargnasher]

Longbow, they were Lee .457-340-RF, sized .453" and then .448" in push-through sizers. This is a new mould, it has much larger/deeper grease and crimp grooves than the old style, and the meplat is larger, so lots of groove left after all the sizing. You might be right about the dashed-line cuts. These soft boolits didn't cut the patch much at all, though, the recovered patches basically unwound in flight, tearing only a chunk or two out.

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

.448 is too small for any 45cal rifle I have seen unless you are loading black powder.

[geargnasher]

Pdawg, it's a .45 COLT, and it has a grossly oversized chamber and throat. Throat is .458", chamber is .484" where the boolit body sits, and .495" at the case head. It does have a large-for-caliber groove at .4525", bore .4465". As of two nights ago it shoots 1" at 50 yards with two wet wraps of notebook paper, 50/50 WW/roofing lead air cooled, lubed in a .458" H&I die, then pushed through a .457", and 24 grains of Reloder 7 (compressed upon chambering, unsized, fireformed cases and no crimp), and a CCI 300. Dirty, but very accurate.

Gear

[DIRT Farmer]

Today I shot three five shot patterns with the lyman SWC for the 32 S&W long. The first was as sized .314 (all were lubed, all I had under the bench) and 3.5 grns of Green Dot. The fit as patched was very tight in the throat of the Mk 4 Savage 2 grouve, and two of my cases were ejected with the case mouth no longer square. I would have never though it would streach the case mouth. The patern was three inches at 20 yards.
#2 was sized to .309 (all wraped with lined note pad) loaded with four grains of Green Dot WW LP primer. 20 yards three in appx one inch two flyers opened to four inches. PP was about 50% intact with rifling impressed all the way around, full length of the patch.
#3 was as above with five grains of Green Dot, 20 yds, three in two inches, two opening to five inches. No patch fragments found.
They worked down the barrel no lead. Next I will resquare the case mouths and see if that would help. Five in an inch at 25 would definatly be a small game load. I was not bad wraping the lubed castings, and they were quiet enough for back yard. The noise leval was between a 22short and standard volicity long rifle. By the way, this casting would not hold on a five gallon bucket with the muzzle stuck in it neckked unpatched. I think it will work with some more trials. Then find out if it will knock a squrriel out.

[brstevns]

PP loads would be for a 45/70 Marlin 1895GG