M1 Garand question

[abunaitoo]

I was shooting my M1 with a new load I'm working on. I was using a 2 round clip.
At 50yds it was dead on, 1 1/2 or less groups.
At 100yds I noticed the first shot was 3" low, the second shot was dead on. I shot 3 groups with the same results. Low first shot group and dead on second shot groups were 1" to 2".
Shooting was done, shoot, spot, shoot, spot, look for shells and pick up clip.
I do think I need a little more powder to get more consistant cycling.
This is with cast bullets. With jacketed no problem.
Has anyone else had this happen????
Any ideas what maybe the cause????

[d.thomson]

I think mabey the barrle is cooling off to much between 2 and 3 shot I get this with my m14 5 shot groops the 6 shotis always a flier7,8,9,10 shot are within 1/2 inch, but between the 5th and 6th, the 10th and 11th, the15and16, if you get what I meen try shooting 3 or 5 shot groups and see what happens. Just my 2 cents. Regards Dave T.

[garandsrus]

abunaitoo,

If you are getting honest and consistent 1 to 2 inch groups at 100 yds with a Garand using any bullet, consider yourself lucky! The rifle just doesn't shoot any better than that.

You might try loading using an 8 round clip and see what happens to the group.

What bullet and load are you using?

John

[hydraulic]

You're getting l and 2 inch groups at 100 yds with cast bullets? You don't need a new powder, you need a new ruler.

[abunaitoo]

The load I'm working with is a Lee 180/309 bullet GC, 32 gr of IMR3031 with a dacron filler.
I'm using a 2 round clip. Shoot one round, sight, shoot the next, sight, look for brass and clip. I shot three sets of two. 100yds.
I think my ruler is just fine.
The first shot of each set were about touching, but 3" low. The second shot of the set was in the "X" about 1" to 2", but not as close together as the first shot.
At 50yds I can almost make one hole.
For some strange reason this Garand has always shot great. I've got three of them and this looks the most used of the three, but out shoots the other two by a bunch.
I'm thinking that I need more powder. Sometimes the cycling does not feel consistant. The clip may be holding back something that is causing the bolt to stay closed longer. Makes no sense to me, but can't think of anything else.
Is this fun or what???:-D

[garandsrus]

Abunaitoo,

You can always up the powder charge and see what happens... I would also load the rounds in an 8 round clip to see if the difference in point of impact is due to manually cycling the bolt for the first round. If it is, then you at least know if the problem is with the first or subsequent rounds.

Once you have identified the problem, I would suggest you search Jouster (http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/garand/garand.pl) for the same thing. If you don't find a match, you can post your results.

John

[BruceB]

My M1 displays the same first-round flyer with cast boolits, and so does my M1A. Jacketed rounds do not display this phenomenon.

There's definitely some sort of variation with the first round. Also as abunaitoo describes, if the first-round holes could be combined on a single sheet of paper, they'd form a pretty consistent group of their own...and again, the same applies to the M1A. All my shooting is from 8-round clips in the Garand, and mag-fed from the M1A.

Note that virtually all my '06 and 7.62 NATO cast-boolit loads use dacron fill, so powder positioning SHOULDN'T be a factor...but maybe it still is.

Something about the positioning of the operating parts, following manual closing of the bolt, seems to affect the point of impact. I try to let the bolt slam with absolutely no impediment from me, but I'm sure there's less bolt speed even when I draw the op-rod as far back as it'll go before releasing it (compared to closing speed in semi-auto operation). Everything functions freely, and the bolt(s) clearly close completely.

Research continues.

[Bodydoc447]

Try shooting from a 8 round clip and see if there are two groups, one from each side of the clip. I have noticed feeding differences depending on how I load the 8 rounders. Perhaps this is the source of your separation of the first and second shots.

Doc

[abunaitoo]

I'm glad someone else had this happen to them. I'll try some 5 and 8 round clips and see what happends.
I just knew my ruler was working!!!!!

[hydraulic]

abunaito: I'm sorry for that smart-ass remark about your ruler. I didn't mean it to come out that way. It's just that my M1 cast groups are significantly larger at 100 yds. than 1 or 2 inches. I shouldn't cast stones at people who can shoot better than me.

[Safeshot]

Do you cast bullet shooters that shoot cast bullets in the M1 rifle have trouble with lead build up in the gas cylinder?

[BruceB]

Do you cast bullet shooters that shoot cast bullets in the M1 rifle have trouble with lead build up in the gas cylinder?


Absolutely not, in my case.

Some time back, a yaer or so, I fired over 600 consecutive cast-boolit rounds through my M1 over a period of weeks, with NO cleaning whatever. The rifle functioned just fine through the entire marathon. When I decided to strip it down for cleanig, it was mostly due to curiosity.

The gas system was free of any sort of metallic fouling. I may as well have been firing jacketed ammo, because all there was in the cylinder and on the piston/op-rod was carbon fouling.

This experience echoes my results in many other gas-operated rifles over the years, but I'm now much deeper into cast-bullet rifle loads than I was in earlier times.

I use .311" boolits, cast from straight wheelweight alloy and dropped in cold water from the mould. Felix lube or LAR-45's lubes supply the slickum for the loads. Most loads use dacron fiber filler. All loads for M1 and M1A now use CCI 34 (military) primers.

[redneckdan]

i use WCWW and just enough IMR 4895 to cycle the action. I get one or two flakes of lead on the piston face in 100rds.

[hydraulic]

I use 40 grs of 4831 with 311413. Cycles the action doesn't lead the gas works.

[abunaitoo]

I started my cast bullet M1 Garand adventure with H4895. Ended up using 35.0gr, no filler, 309/180GC Lee. Shot great. Very consistant. 1" to 2" at 50yds and 3" to 4" at 100yds. I think I needed more powder to get the groups smaller, but ran out of powder.
Just so happens I got #10 of 3031 for cheap(estate sale), so thats why I'm using 3031.
I think IMR4895 is a better powder for the Garand. But the way it's shooting, I think I'll stick with the 3031.
I shoot about 60 to 100 rounds through it at the range. Other than the carbon on the op-rod face, nothing. No lead. Same with the barrel. Not a sliver of lead.
I don't know what it is, but this Garand shoots way better than my other two. I guess I just got lucky.

[georgewxxx]

Read my M-1 article in these things Beagle put together,

I'm not trying to toot my horn, as the groups listed are quite big. I was just trying to get the action to cycle. To refine each powder/ bullet combination to get the smallest groups of all the boolits tested would take forever. These function tests were done on 5 different rifles. 1800fps was all that was needed to get complete function. The light flat nosed 32-20 bullet worked with no problems at all. Remember we cast bullet shooter are basically experimenters. If my tests help you, I've done my part. I agree with what been stated, I'd be in cat heaven with 2" groups at 100yds...Geo