310 cadet martini

[Frank46]

Well I done dood it. For years I've had the parts (except the bbl) for a cadet martini. I recently got lucky on ebone and got a bbl with a nice bore. OK, now for the hard part. I've heard that 32-20 brass can be used to make 310 cadet brass. If anyone has gone through the hoops making the brass I'd like to hear how you did it. The bullet for this caliber is available from RCBS and if the brain cells are working (CRS) is a flat based bullet. The diameter at present is unknown to me. I have not had the opportunity to slug this bbl, so if anyone has some suggestions as to diameters or bullets or loads I'd be greatful. And does anyone like RCBS, Lee, Redding make loading dies. Thanks, Frank

[Bigjohn]

Frank,

If you go to this thread it will have most of the details you need as it is about reloading ammo for these little rifles.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7881

These rifles are currently experiencing a bit of a resurgence especially here downunder and our main sport shooting body holds a postal match for them.

I shoot mine as often as I am able to reload for it and I have a second one undergoing refurbishment at the moment.

You can make your brass from .32/20 brass as mentioned on this site;
http://64.177.205.5/martini/cadet.htm

CBE make the best mold for the projectiles and ship overseas. Jim's mold are shown in the thread at the top of this post.

If you have ANY further questions, do not be afraid to ask and I will answer as best I can.

BTW .320" is closer to the groove diam., LEE did make a die set for an Australian shop who sell them and a mold also LEE made on special order.

Contact; Western Firearms, 2/159 Penshurst St., Beverly Hills NSW 2209 Ph 61+2 9570 4794 Fax 61+2 9570 3162. or JANSA ARMS as per link in .310 reloading thread.

BERTRAM Brass makes the cases for this calibre not converted 32/20 cases, new made.

I could go on further but see how you digest this lot first.

PM address and will send recent Australian Article on loading for this cal. if you wish.
Enjoy your .310" Cadet,
:drinks:

John

[45 2.1]

I've heard that 32-20 brass can be used to make 310 cadet brass. If anyone has gone through the hoops making the brass I'd like to hear how you did it. It works fine, you have to cut the length to match your chamber and the heeled boolit you will use. The heeled boolit should snug into the throat on closing the breech block. You will probably have to thin the 32-20 rim from the front to match the rim cut in your chamber. The rim thickness varies a whole lot on the rifles i've checked, some will take an unaltered rim but most will not.
The bullet for this caliber is available from RCBS This is the one I use and it is a heeled boolit. The hardest part is lubing the grease groove. Plug all but one set of holes on your die and adjust your depth screw so the groove aligns with the die holes. Push boolit into die, apply pressure to lube, then back off pressure. Slow, but not too bad. and if the brain cells are working (CRS) is a flat based bullet. The diameter at present is unknown to me. I'm useing a 0.321" die to lube and size mine. I have not had the opportunity to slug this bbl, so if anyone has some suggestions as to diameters or bullets or loads I'd be greatful. And does anyone like RCBS, Lee, Redding make loading dies. RCBS does (expensive) and CH4D (these are the ones I have and they work fine) does also in the U.S. You can make a crimping die by shortening the bottom of the collet on a LEE factory crimp 32-20 die the appropriate amount also which is a good idea for this cartridge. I understood that LEE ran a custom run along with molds at one time also.

[Frank46]

I would like to thank all whom responded to my query regarding the cadet martini care and feeding. You've given me much food for thought. I already have 32-20 brass that I bought some years ago with the hopes of finding a marlin 1894 in this caliber. Never did find one. But still have the brass. I'll see what lays in my junk boolet box as I may have a soft lead pistol bullet with which to slug the bore and then take it from there. Thanks again, Frank

[leftiye]

45 2.1-

Not only that, but 32-20 is (I might be mistaken, but the .218 Bee was developed from 32-20, and it had -) the same headsize as the .357 mag. and .38 special.

[leftiye]

If you wanted a rimless version, it could possibly be made from .223 brass.

[mag44uk]

in my cadet which fit with no modifications to the rim. I cut roughly to length then found a punch in my tool box which was the right diameter,around .306 is good as the bullety heel is nominally .308.
I used the punch to open out the slight bottleneck. I fireformed the case using 8 grains 2400 then trimmed to final length. I use the RCBS bullet which I buy locally and these are lubed with LLA. No leading so far.
I found I need to size the case slightly in order to get bullet retention. I use a lee 30 carbine die set to do this ( you need to use the correct shell holder for the 32-20).
I then use the Lee universal flaring tool so that the bullets go in with a good push.
My cadet slugs at .321 and the bore in my rifle is pristine-unlike the wood work:roll:
Not shot it a lot yet but on sunday put about 20 rounds into a 3inch circle at 25 yards,standing,unsupported. It was easy to pick a spot on the sand bank at 100 yards and plant the bullet there.
I love this little rifle.
Best of luck with yours.
Tony

[kywoodwrkr]

The 31950 has been used in the 310 cadet as well from what I remember.
The 31950 is the bullet for the old Colt 31 caliber cap and ball and is not a heeled bullet.
Another side note the bullet is real good for the 8mm Nambu as well.
DaveP

[Dale53]

MAG44UK;
Thanks for the specific information. I have a little Cadet that has been rechambered to 32/20 and that should help me get started.

Dale53

[klw]

It has been a very long time since I loaded for one of these so I might get the details wrong. What I remember, however, was that there was a problem unique to this particular cartridge. Took me forever to figure it out.

The were two possibile sources for case dimension information. Donnelley's book was one of them and I just don't remember the other. Berthram used one book to set up the case dimensions. RCBS used the other when setting up die manufacturer. Alas the difference was in the stated case length. So Berthram made their brass by one spec and RCBS made their dies by another.

As bad luck would have it, the shorter of these two was what Berthram used so their brass was to short for the RCBS reloading dies. Fortunately, however, Berthram quality control was so poor that many of their cases were too long. The long cases worked.

I've long since forgotten the exact details. I do remember, however, that sometimes the loaded rounds came out find and sometimes they were a mess. Eventually I miked all the brass in the cartridges that went together properly and realized that there was a case length problem.

All that many decades ago another problem was the absence of exactly the right cast bullet. So you used an undersized bullet of pure lead and hoped that the bullet would bump up. Maybe that is why case length was so important. That you needed a crimp at the right place. Or maybe my memory is just failing.

Now, of course, RCBS make a mould for this specific gun. That might well be money well spent.

Somewhere I have extensive notes on reloading this round. If you really want let me know and I'll dig them out.

But my memory was that this was not a cartridge for beginners.

[trk]

Check this out: http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=14

I have posted recently pictures of chamber casts from two .310 Cadet barrels - one in .310 the other rechambered in .32-20 . Comparing them will show you what you're up against - namely when you get the bullet diameter up big enough it won't fit into the .32-20 case. Two diameter bullet is a working solution.


Top is .308 W.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/456411.jpg

[Boz330]

Most of the info that you need is here. I got the RCBS mold wich is the heeled bullet. I use a 30 Carbine expander then hand seat the bullet in the case and then crimp with a Lee modified 32-20 crimp die. I don't need to resize the brass after firing just flare it. I have been using the Lee liquid alox on the boolits.
I just bought modified 32-20 cases from Buffalo Arms and have some Bertram as well and can't tell any difference in them. For the cost it isn't worth fooling with making them from scratch.
The barrel is an odd number of grooves so you will have to interpolate the measurement by turninig the slug in the mic jaws. Not dead on but will get you close.
Blue Dot has worked very well for me. This is a fun gun, good luck with it.

Bob

[Frank46]

KLW, if and when you locate your notes on the .310 cartridge I for one would be most appreciative of your information. The bore on this bbl has a few rust spots, but nothing serious. In fact it polished up quite nicely with Brownell's Bore Brite.Right now I have so many irons in the fire that it is starting to look like a chinese fire drill. One could measure with either a depth guage or the tail end of a set of dial calipers to get a rough idea of the chamber length and then shorten the
32-20 cases to fit. I couldmake up a shorty lymantype"M" die with expander to take out the bottle nect on the case. I know rcbs sells a heeled bullet mold for this cartridge. But was wondering if a reguler type cast bullet in a small grain weight size has or had been made. Might be an option to think about. Or maybe some of the liter cast bullets the schutzen shooters use in the 32miller cartridge. Just thinking out loud. Course if anyone has a set of 32-20 dies for the lyman tong tool maybe these could be modified to load and size cases for the .310 cadet. Thanks for the help, and keep your thoughts on this cartridge coming. This is getting very interesting. Frank

[klw]

Did this back in 89. No wonder I couldn't remember it.

A reference I had back then which I do not have now was in the January 1989 Handloader Magazine, #137, entitled "Resurrecting A Martini-Cadet."

The Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions put the case length at 1.02 inches. Loaded length of 1.59 inches. At least according to my notes.

The Handloader article put the case length at 1.12 inches

Shorter cases were not long enough for the roll crimp to happen. Long cases yielded abnormal amount of case mouth flairing. Of course that could be fixed by trimming overall brass length.

Went thru all the Bertrum brass and used only cases who length was under 1.055 inches. Why I picked that number I don't now know but the cartridges made from these cases worked. Notes suggest that longer brass has extraction problems.

Used NEI 118.308 PB bullet sized to 0.311 inches. 4 grains of Unique. 1.393 inch over all length. small rifle primers. No problems and no recoil.

The second time I did this, about a year later, I was very carefully controlling brass length and had adjusted the dies to give absolutely no case mouth flairing. As near as I can now tell that eliminated and chambering and extraction problems.

The real trick here was realizing that the two information sources I had had very different numbers for brass length. Off by 0.1 inches. Bertrum used one of these numbers in making their cases. RCBS used the other in making their dies. 17 years ago that was VERY hard to figure out. Also bullet selection way back then was less than idea.

I know that some of these guns will shoot 32-20's without modification. Some will not.

Also now RCBS has a mould.

But I don't know what current brass is like.

*********

Finally I remember that way back in the late 80's some folks were chambering these things to 44 Magnum.

*********
If I live long enough I'm going to have to get one of these again.

[Bigjohn]

Go to work for three days worth of shifts and look what happens! It appears that the debate on this calibre has started again.

I have heard but cannot confirm by experimentation or investigation that the chamber dimensions of these rifles vary. As has been noted here; some rifles will except a .32/20 case unmodified while other rifles won't.
I also have seen the variations in case length published in various articles and personally trim my cases to 1.080" which allows me to use my 130 gr projectile, which has a generous driving band section.

I have ample supplies of SUPER brand cases to shoot both of my .310" Cadets but SUPER no longer make these cases (or anything else). Diferences between the SUPER brand and BERTRAM Cases are noticable but with proper reloading make no real difference.

I a recent article published here in Australia (GUNS Australia January/March 2007), the Author (Marcus O'DEAN) explored some of the problems of reloading this cartridge. One of the problems he encountered was with the available Reloading Die Sets.
IMHO there is no manufacturer known to me who understands the special needs for reloading the cartridge and are still making their die sets to the MODERN cartridge types.
Marcus said in his article; one of the main problems he encountered was with the crimp "Ring" inside the seating die. This "Ring" would continually grab the projectile and pull it from the case as the cartridge was withdrawnn from the die.
This problem appeared with most die sets he tried; SIMPLEX, LEE and CH.

As mentioned and hinted at, by other members responding to this thread the seating die should NOT have any crimp "Ring"; crimp if required should be applied by a seperate die like the LEE factory crimp die.

IMO resizing of the cases should be done using a die like the LEE collet die and have a series of mandrels for different inside mouth diameters.

For my reloading, I use a set made here in Australia by SIMPLEX (which is 20 years old) and adjust the dies so the brass is worked to a minimum. Up to this point in time I have encountered no issues with this die set but this maybe due to my methods of adjustment.

I have used two methods of applying the lube to the projectile both of which are done after the projectile is seated. LEE LA applied by finger (Messy) and dipping in melted Alox/Beeswax (Messy also); I find both prevent leading, are easy to do but the LLA is the better method IMO.

:coffee:

John

[Four Fingers of Death]

Big John, at those sort of velocities wouldn't Lee Liquid Alox be a less messy option?

[Bigjohn]

Big John, at those sort of velocities wouldn't Lee Liquid Alox be a less messy option?

Mick, you are correct LLA is the better option of the two I have tried and it works!

I would be interested to hear from some of the others who talk about the modified LEE 32/20 Factory Crimp Dies for crimping or finally case sizing.

I was only pondering that option this past week myself and planning to order one of thos dies to experiment with.

John.

[Bullshop]

Bigjohn
A method I use instead of modifying the Lee Crimp die is to make a spacer that will slip over the loaded round and bottom on the rim. The other end will bottom on the top of the die.
To use this slip the spacer over the loaded round turn it up side down and slip the boolit and neck into the top of the die. Now pull the press handle to apply the crimp. You have to adjust the spacer to the proper length to get the crimp right where you want it. Once you get the spacer right its a rapidly repeatable crimp systam. I even use this to crimp the midsection of cases to act as a boolit stop instead of resizing cases. This works good when shooting very soft boolits that may be deformed if seated into a tight neck. The Lee FC die is a very versatile tool.
BIC/BS

[Pilgrim]

Kynoch now makes .310 brass. I saw a box of the brass yesterday at the Kynoch booth at the SCI convention in Reno. It looked like a box of 100, maybe more. You can probably get it through Kynoch. Your other option is to contact somebody in Reno, NV RIGHT NOW and have them go over to the SCI convention at the Convention Center and ask somebody to go to David Little's booth and get them. Pilgrim

[Kabloona15]

Greetings fellow cadt 310 shooters. I am beginning to re-load for this rifle and I am trying to sort out the proper powder charges and bullet weights etc. and I could use some advice.

I purchased new 310 brass from Bertram, an RCBS 310 heeled-bullet mould, a set of RCBS dies, and made up some test rounds. I used 6- 8- and 10-grains of IMR 4227 and remmington small rifle primers. I had no way to crimp, so I am open for suggestions here? Lubed by dipping the bullets into Lee Anlox lube.

At the range the 6-grain loads barely made it out of the barrel and left behind lots of unburned or partially burned powder. The 8-grain loads grouped well but were 3-4 inches high at 50 yds. The 10-grain loads were centered on target and grouped 3-4 inches at 50 yds.

So am I on the right track here, or should I look for better propllant (e.g., Red Dot, 2400, etc.) for these 310 loads?

Thanks, Kabloona15

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Just thought, for those that need them, I'd add the method I use for making a heeled bullet for my 10.4x47R Vetterli-Vitali. I use .429 bullets, and after sizing/lubing them, run them down part way in a smaller sizing die, just to the band I use as a stop band. I had to open up a smaller die to get the perfect diameter, but this is no problem, if the right die isn't available, there are guys who make custom sizing dies on this forum.
Morgan

[Boz330]

Greetings fellow cadt 310 shooters. I am beginning to re-load for this rifle and I am trying to sort out the proper powder charges and bullet weights etc. and I could use some advice.

I purchased new 310 brass from Bertram, an RCBS 310 heeled-bullet mould, a set of RCBS dies, and made up some test rounds. I used 6- 8- and 10-grains of IMR 4227 and remmington small rifle primers. I had no way to crimp, so I am open for suggestions here? Lubed by dipping the bullets into Lee Anlox lube.

At the range the 6-grain loads barely made it out of the barrel and left behind lots of unburned or partially burned powder. The 8-grain loads grouped well but were 3-4 inches high at 50 yds. The 10-grain loads were centered on target and grouped 3-4 inches at 50 yds.

So am I on the right track here, or should I look for better propllant (e.g., Red Dot, 2400, etc.) for these 310 loads?

Thanks, Kabloona15

Try 7.6gr of AA#9. A friend that shoots a lot of Cadet says this meters well and shoots to the sights. I haven't tried it yet so use caution.

Bob

[BAGTIC]

45 2.1-

Not only that, but 32-20 is (I might be mistaken, but the .218 Bee was developed from 32-20, and it had -) the same headsize as the .357 mag. and .38 special.

The .357 Magnum and the .32-20 do NOT have the same headsize.

[Kabloona15]

BOZ330: What is the trick to prevent the over expansion of the case neck when seating the RCBS 310 cast bullet into a Bertram brass case? It appears that the "heeled" neck of the cast bullet from the RCBS mould is too large and as a result it enlarges the case neck diameter to the point where the finished round will not chamber. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Kabloona

[Kabloona15]

BOZ330: Tried AA#9 and RED DOT both with good results. Thanks! Now I am dealing with over expansion of the brass case neck when seating cast bullets from my RCBS 310 mould - seems the narrower "heel" end of the bullets is too large and over expands the case neck.
Thanks, Kabloona

[NoDakJak]

I finally have a few results to report on the new group buy mold for the .310. The boolits are acww. The shanks measure .306/.307 with the rest measuring .320/.321.
I used new Remington 32.20 brass to make the cases. I trimmed the cases to 1.070 and then chucked them in the lathe and faced the stamping from the case and then finished thinning the rim from the front with a triangular file. The chamber in the rifle was used as a go/nogo gauge. Once you do a few you get the knack and it goes quickly.
Reloading is simplicity itself. I simply full length size in the 32.20 die and then expand them in an old 30 Carbine die. The first ten cases were from an older lot and I was able to seat the boolits with strong thumb pressure. They fit tight enough that it required the use of pliers to pull them back out of the case. No crimp required or desired. The next fifty evidently had slightly thicker brass. I started the boolits by hand and then used a simple little arbor press to seat the boolits. I finger lubed the boolits after loading with Johnson Paste Wax. It quickly dries hard and doesn't have a tendency to pick up dirt and grit.
I used the RED DOT data that was supplied by BIG JOHN for my first loads.
3.5 grains of Red Dot averaged 1,022 fps and left a clean and very shiny bore. The group wasn't anything to shout about.
2.8 grains of Bullseye averaged 966 fps and was quiet. The bore was clean but the group poor.
3.4 grains of GREEN DOT averaged 1,035 and the group was excellent. The bore was clean.
3.9 grains of PB averaged 1,096 and left the bore VERY clean. The group was almost as good as with Green Dot.
3.6 grains of old Unique averaged 1,012 fps. This is where things went to pot! Group was very poor. Ten shots left dense black fouling and when this was removed it was found that this load had provided severe leading. Since the velocity is in the same range as the other loads I surmise the leading was caused by the increased friction from the black soot. Someone correct me if I am wrong about this. If I increased the load to 4.0 grains it would probably raise the pressures enough to cause it to burn clean. I will probably come back to it later but there a dozen other powders that I want to test first.
Lots of testing to do and I still need to finish the new stock. I'm shooting it without a fore end at this time. Have fun! Neil

[NoDakJak]

I managed to get out to the range yesterday and tested two more loads. The first was
3.5 grains of ZIP with WSP primers. Velocity was 1,006 fps and the group was medicore. I think that I will drop this load two tenths grain and try again.
3.2 grains of 231 averaged 979 and gave by far the best group of any loads tested. Five shots in 15/16" with three of them touching. That is at 30 yards where most of my small game shooting occurs. There was no leading. Nada!
Lets hear from some of you other Martini shooters. Neil

[358wcf]

Great to see the interest in these fine little rifles- I own 3 of these beauties, and find them a great deal of fun!
#1 is a Westley Richards cadet that was a gift from my wife (love her DEARLY) back in 1976- had it rebored by a 'smith in San Gabriel, CA, rechambered for the 357 Magnum. Williams sights finished the job- a magnificent little rifle, it has taken uncounted ground squirrels, skunks, porcupines, possums, and 6 California Blacktail deer! Every one a one-shot kill with factory 158gr HP ammo- I've been playing with the 200gr FN GC RCBS bullet and 2400 powder, but have run out of sight elevation to stay on the paper at 100 yds- 50 yrds is great. Note- I just got a NEW Lyman 66 receiver sight designed for the Martini Cadet off evilBay, and plan to get it installed to fix the elevation limitation- wish me luck!
#2&3 are BSA, one has the windage adjustable rear sight, the other does not.
Looking to rebore the adj. sighted one to 357 Maximum soon, if I can find a 'smith interested in the job- contact me by email if you know of anyone! Please!?!
Fixed sight one will be kept original, and I plan to get the Buffalo Arms brass and cast some of the RCBS heeled projectiles-

An interesting note on the Westley Richards- the chamber is tight enough that loaded rounds with cast bullets won't chamber easily- UNLESS if run them through a sizer die after loading! Strange, but it works well- seems to "iron out" the finished round with no other changes.

358wcf in Concord, CA

[Bigjohn]

358wcf, Welcome to the fold. The little Cadet rifle can be very addictive. With your rounds that won't load, what is your case length?

If you are belling the case mouth, don't put too much on; you only want enough to allow the boolit base to start entering the case.

Keep on going and let us know how you are getting along.

John

[Myshot]

After you have loaded the round, take the spindle out of the sizing die and then run the loaded round into the sizing die. This crimps the case onto the bullet and it alighns the bullet. Once this is done there should be no chambering problems. Just like the 22 rimfire. I have found it improves accuracy as well. I have been doing this for three cadet rifles without any problem. this advice can also be sought from Bruce at Bertram bullets and Jim at CBE. ADI 2205 and 120 outside lubed bullet from Blackhark cast bullets group 1 1/2-1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. The 128 grn heeled bullet from the same manufacurer does not group quite as tight. 2205 is a dirty powder as it leaves unburnt powder in the barrel and action. I am trying some AP70 next. I found AS30 too hot and accuracy was no good.

[Nevek]

I am starting to reload my 310 Cadet. I have the dies I got from Australia a few years back. I got the 32-20 starline brass. and lead bullets healed bullets. I have trimmed the neck and started reload process. But I need to know powder measure amount. Any ideas?

[john.k]

Depends on the powder......Trailboss works OK ,for starters,using about 4 1/2 gr.......What gun do you have .....there is a difference in groove diameters .....the 1st delivery guns ,have a .316 groove,all the 2nd model BSA s have .320 groove dia,as do replacements barrels ordered from Greeners in the 1920s.(the shallow groove barrels wore too quickly)......If you have a tight fitting firing pin and use hard bullets ,you can use 30 M1 loads for 2000fps+ ......but be warned ,these loads will lock up the block/ firing pin hole if its loose enough to extrude the primer..

[samari46]

Kinda surprised when I saw this thread and realized I started it back in 2007 13 years ago. And used a different handle as well. My cadet is a bitsa, bits of this and that. However the action and complete stock work are all original, the only difference is the barrel. Frank

[Skippy303]

You might be interested in some information on the 310 cadet we have found out the hard way and might be of interest.

Cases are readily available from Bruce Bertram his website is https://bertrambrass.com/ I also believe Huntington’s are an agent for Bertram brass. These case’s last a long time I tried making cases from 32/20 I gave it up not worth the effort.

Cast bullets used are universally CBE’s https://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/ their 320-120 it is the correct heeled bullet it’s base is .310 and the driving band is 320.5 from my mould, shoot as cast lubricated with Lee liquid Alox. I use range scrap with about 1% tin for casting I have tried linotype, Lyman no2 and could not tell the difference so its range scrap and 1% tin for me. CBE’s website has a very good description of the 320-120 mould they also have some very good 303b moulds have a look at 315-218GC and 315-240GC. Both of these moulds work very well in Long Tom’s and Lee Medford’s.

I only use Trail Boss start a 3.5 then go to 4 and finally 4.5 grains, 4.5 is a bugger to load as it fills the case to capacity so I use 4 as do most of us do, some use 3.5 surprisingly 4.5 is the most accurate but as I said it’s a bugger to load 4grains is almost as accurate. Make sure you small pistol primers. Best Trail Boss other loads for the 32/20 5.5 g with any 115 to 120 grain bullet and SP primers. With the 308, 30-06 and 303B with any bullet over 160grains start at 10grains and stop at 13grains if you do not find an accurate load between those charge weights you will have to try something else.

Lee make 310 cadet dies and an auto prime shell holder the major concern is the Lee bullet seating die does not crimp we have found a mild to medium crimp is best, so I and the majority of us use SIMPLEX Master dies they crimp the bullet. Several of my shooting friends have learnt the hard way about Lee bullet seating dies they had to purchase a separate SIMPLEX Master Bullet seating die so now they can crimp. Next time you look at a Lee bullet seating die look if it has machined flats on the side of the die body flats means it crimps no flats no crimp so you have to buy a separate bullet crimping die.

http://simplexreloading.com.au/