Expansion Testing

[buyobuyo]

I'm interested in testing the expansion of the MP 359-125-HP boolits that I've been casting and loading in 9mm, so I've been saving gallon milk jugs and 2qt juice containers (two are the same dimensions as a milk jug, but the plastic feels thicker).

However, I have no idea how many would be sufficient and was hoping someone here could lend some insight. I would hate to go out and blow through everything and have to start over. Right now, I have 4 milk jugs and 4 juice containers.

If it helps any, my loads chronograph at ~1075 FPS at 7 ft from the muzzle.

[303Guy]

This is one way of doing it.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-887F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-580F_edited.jpg

I used wool furniture padding packed into containers and saturated with water. It's reuseable but the containers take a beating.

[Dannix]

This should give you an idea, and good reading too. I don't remember the milk jug of water to inches of ballistic gelatin penetration ratio off the top of my head, sorry. I'd save the juice container for fun reactive targets.
http://www.theboxotruth.com

[JeffinNZ]

PETER! That's a jacketed bullet in that photo! I'm shocked.

[para45lda]

Busted!!!

[303Guy]

Sorry. [smilie=1: It's the ones I was testing back in the dark ages. The only boolit tests I've done were into fine soft sand.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-610F.jpg

You need a special container for sand and it isn't quite the same. I did do a comparison of expansion in the sand and wet wool.

[buyobuyo]

Thanks for the comments. I understand there are plenty of ways to skin this cat. I empty a gallon of milk and 2qt of juice every 1-1.5 weeks, so I figured I would start out with those as there's no extra cost.


After some Googling, it seems that the general consensus is 3 gallon jugs is pretty close to the same as 12" of ballistic gelatin, and from what I could find a lot of factory 9mm HP ammo is around 15" of penetration in ballistic gelatin.

I went out to the range this morning to do some plinking with the .22s, so I figured I would give this a try. On my first attempt, I didn't find the boolit. I aimed too high and the boolit had a little bit of an upward trajectory. As far as I can figure, it flew into oblivion after exiting the third gallon jug, but some shrapnel damaged the 4th gallon jug and first 2qt juice container. For the second round, I placed the 4 juice containers in front and the surviving 4th gallon jug at the end. The second round I captured in the 4th juice container.

What I recovered weighs 122.6gr and a size/lubed boolit weighs 129.2gr. However there is basically no expansion. An unfired boolit measures 0.262" at the point where the recovered bullet is shortened to, and the recovered bullet measures 0.340".

Apparently, my load is a bit too anemic to get the HPs to expand. It is my load for USPSA matches, and does great for that. I'll try some hotter loads at sometime to see if I can get it to expand. My alloy is 50/50 clip/stick weights with 50/50 solder to bring the tin up to 1.5%. I water drop the boolits which hardens them to 20-22 BHN. Air cooled the alloy run around 7.5 BHN.

I'll see about taking/posting pictures of the recovered boolit later.




This should give you an idea, and good reading too. I don't remember the milk jug of water to inches of ballistic gelatin penetration ratio off the top of my head, sorry. I'd save the juice container for fun reactive targets.
http://www.theboxotruth.com

Thanks for the link. I've read most of that site before, but it has been awhile.

[Jailer]

Build a Fackler Box (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fackler+box)

[stubert]

Did you try the soft alloy yet? It might work good, it would be the easeist thing to try.

[buyobuyo]

Stubert, the 50/50 alloy is what I'm using. However, if I run it air-cooled, I get really bad leading. That's why I'm water dropping the boolits.

[snuffy]

My alloy is 50/50 clip/stick weights with 50/50 solder to bring the tin up to 1.5%. I water drop the boolits which hardens them to 20-22 BHN. Air cooled the alloy run around 7.5 BHN.

Do you seriously expect a boolit THAT HARD to expand? That boolit is brittle, if you finally drive it hard enough to get it to expand, it'll simply shatter, blowing off the nose.

Air cool them, then try it again.

Then, if you're serious about checking expansion AND seeing a wound cavity, try this system.

http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

Then you'll see this;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0379.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0378.jpg

those boolits are the MP cramer 45 acp 200 HP boolits. The top pic is the round HP, the next is the penta HP.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0383.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0382.jpg

Left is the round HP, right the penta point. Weight retention was nearly 100%. Alloy is pure lead with tin added via lead free solder, 95% tin-5%
antimony. At 2# per 100 pounds of pure lead- 2%.

here's a few I cast from the mold when I first got it-AC. That's range lead about 12 BHN. It too expands in the test tube media. That media is a soft wax that can be re-molded in a new paper tube, used again, as many times as you need.

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/cannont2ifolder/websize/IMG_0345.JPG

[buyobuyo]

Snuffy, if you can push a 7.5 BHN boolit at 1k+ fps out of a 9mm, I would love to know how you're doing it. My attempts resulted in ridiculous amounts of leading. According to published pressure numbers, I need a minimum BHN of around 17.

[snuffy]

Snuffy, if you can push a 7.5 BHN boolit at 1k+ fps out of a 9mm, I would love to know how you're doing it. My attempts resulted in ridiculous amounts of leading. According to published pressure numbers, I need a minimum BHN of around 17.

Well those 45's were at 925 without any leading. If your boolits fit, AND you have the proper lube, I see no reason why you're getting leading.

I just loaded some hot 9mm with that same alloy, 125 lee 2r round noses using a max load of power pistol. I'll shoot some tomorrow or Tuesday to see if they lead. And how accurate they are. CZ-75b will be the launch platform.

If you HAVE to have 17 BHN, then forget about expansion like I got, not gonna happen.

[buyobuyo]

9mm and 45ACP are two completely different beasts.

Standard 9mm can run up to a max pressure of 35000 PSI, whereas standard .45 ACP maxes out at 21000 PSI, according to SAAMI specifications. According to pressure data in Lyman 49 and Cast Bullet Handbook 4, I'm already exceeding maximum .45 ACP pressure by ~4000 PSI at 4.0gr of Unique. If you're running PowerPistol in your .45 ACP rounds, you're most likely running around 7gr. This puts you in the high-16000 to low-17000 PSI range, and a 12 BHN boolit will work.

For comparison, .38 Special has a max SAAMI pressure of 17,000 PSI, +P goes up to 20,000 PSI, and .357 Mag peaks out at 35000 PSI.

[gray wolf]

Very well done SNUFFY
Nice Pics., nice bullets, nice test,
Thanks

[fecmech]

Buyobuyo--Don't get hung up too much on the pressure thing. I've run 35kPSI in the .357 and .44 mag with very good accuracy and no leading with ACWW's at about 12 BHN. I also agree with Snuffy in that you won't see any expansion with 17 BHN bullets.

[303Guy]

... you won't see any expansion with 17 BHN bullets.Unless you anneal the noses. Stand the boolits in water and all that.

[fredj338]

After some Googling, it seems that the general consensus is 3 gallon jugs is pretty close to the same as 12" of ballistic gelatin, and from what I could find a lot of factory 9mm HP ammo is around 15" of penetration in ballistic gelatin.
Thanks for the link. I've read most of that site before, but it has been awhile.

In my testing, water is about 1.5X the penetration of balistic gel, so you'll need more than 4 jugs to reliably trap the bullet. I find water quite "hard" on bullets, & bullets that expand in water often will not in gello oir wetpack (my preferred exp test media).
The HP design & alloy have a lot to do with expansion. For low vel, say 800-1000fps, a wider/deeper HP works better. For higher vel impacts, a shallow cup point holds up better. I like 25-1 alloy but a 50/50 pure lead & clip ww can work for the higher vel cup point stuff. A 17BHN bullet wil not expands, even w/ a large/deep HO, it may frag the nose, but not expand.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-251.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

[firefly1957]

With most pistol loads a single jug is enough then stop bullet with something like old telephone books behind jug. The water will expand slug and the books/paper ect. will give you an idea of power leftover. Note wet paper makes a terrible mess to clean up I quit using it years ago. If you want to see the bullet paths look at discount store for cheap jello/gelatin mix and refrigerate it in gallon jugs. shooting single water filled gallon jugs length wise stops some pistol bullets.

*** safety notice do not have hard object even wood behind jugs! I was shooting my S&W model 29 into a water jug lengthwise on the ground with a stump behind it for safely catching slug. My load was near Maximum WW-296 powder and Speer 200 gr. hollow point bullet at over 1600 f/s. Upon shooting the water filled jug blew to pieces and my friend who was 5 feet behind me said you shot me! I turned and there was a large red mark in the middle of his forehead and the expanded slug was between his feet on the ground!

[fredj338]

^^^ IME, a single water jug doesn't stop any expanding bullet, you need at least 4 to guarantee recovering the bullet. Wetpack is far easier to use IMO. Soak newsprint or phone books, bundle them in 6-8" thick stacks & then duct tape them together. Careful shot placement allows 5-6 pistol shots in one 12-14" stack of phone books. Toss the whole thing away after tha. Certainly less cleanup than splattered jello.

[firefly1957]

fredj338 I did not say it would stop the bullet I use paper or phone books for that the water is to test initial expansion try it, it works well. Jello is biodegradable, I made a terrible mistake with a can of spray insulation that would not work and shot it with the .223 now that was a mess to clean up!

[fredj338]

fredj338 I did not say it would stop the bullet I use paper or phone books for that the water is to test initial expansion try it, it works well. Jello is biodegradable, I made a terrible mistake with a can of spray insulation that would not work and shot it with the .223 now that was a mess to clean up!

I have used a gal water jug backed by wet phone books, works ok, but wetpack is better IMO. Any dry paper is going to skew the result as dry paper is quite hard on a bullet. I've also done it the reverese, 4-6" of wetpack backed buy water jugs.

[buyobuyo]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'll do some more experimenting and what happens. First will be trying to push the rounds faster. Then I'll see what I can do with softer boolits and/or a different powder.

I may also try some experimenting with a different capture techniques. A corn starch/water mix would be interesting to try because it can be mixed so that it flows like a liquid but will solidify with pressure is applied. I'll have to look into how much corn starch costs the next time I'm at the grocery store.

[firefly1957]

GOOD LUCK and enjoy the tests .

[fredj338]

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'll do some more experimenting and what happens. First will be trying to push the rounds faster. Then I'll see what I can do with softer boolits and/or a different powder.

I may also try some experimenting with a different capture techniques. A corn starch/water mix would be interesting to try because it can be mixed so that it flows like a liquid but will solidify with pressure is applied. I'll have to look into how much corn starch costs the next time I'm at the grocery store.
Stop water dropping & they should expand fine if they are no harder than say 12BHN & little to no antimony.

[44man]

I don't know guys! I have shot deer with 50-50 boolits, oven hardened to 20 BHN and expansion was violent, penetration complete and a pile of ruined meat.
I really don't think BHN will tell you much, alloy is more important. You can make 1000 alloys with the same BHN and each will do something different in game.

[BABore]

I don't know guys! I have shot deer with 50-50 boolits, oven hardened to 20 BHN and expansion was violent, penetration complete and a pile of ruined meat.
I really don't think BHN will tell you much, alloy is more important. You can make 1000 alloys with the same BHN and each will do something different in game.

That's cause guys that say water dropped 50/50 WW-Pb won't expand have most likely never tried it.

[fecmech]

That's cause guys that say water dropped 50/50 WW-Pb won't expand have most likely never tried it.

OP is talking 9MM@1100 fps, aint gonna happen with 17 BHN boolits!

[303Guy]

You can make 1000 alloys with the same BHN and each will do something different in game. Just when I was hoping to simplify things!:roll:

[BABore]

OP is talking 9MM@1100 fps, aint gonna happen with 17 BHN boolits!

Really?

50/50 Water dropped to produce a softer inner core and hard exterior of 20 bhn. 50 yards, 1/2" OSB target board. 75 yards, soft, damp, loam. 400 grain boolit fired from 480 Ruger at 1,251 fps muzzle velocity. No hollow point.

I would imagine that velocity was down in the 1,100+ fps range at impact.

[45 2.1]

OP is talking 9MM@1100 fps, aint gonna happen with 17 BHN boolits!

Already has happened... in the 9mm at 1050 fps or so. This is all about the correct alloy and boolit design with water dropped boolits.

[fecmech]

Really?

50/50 Water dropped to produce a softer inner core and hard exterior of 20 bhn. 50 yards, 1/2" OSB target board. 75 yards, soft, damp, loam. 400 grain boolit fired from 480 Ruger at 1,251 fps muzzle velocity. No hollow point.

I would imagine that velocity was down in the 1,100+ fps range at impact.

BA--Respectfully, pretty much anything expands in dirt, even lino.


Already has happened... in the 9mm at 1050 fps or so. This is all about the correct alloy and boolit design with water dropped boolits.
What 17 BHN alloy and boolit design would that be??

[45 2.1]

What 17 BHN alloy and boolit design would that be??

50/50 WW & Pb waterdropped (about 20 BHN) out of a MiHec or BRP 9mm 125 gr. HP mold. Expands quite well in critters. If you refine your testing, you'll find the expansion cavity in clay mimics that in flesh with about 40 to 50% less penetration depth than in flesh.