Newbie having all sorts of troubles

[Budmen]

First let me explain my setup.
I have a turkey fryer 65,000 btu I believe on top of that a large cast iron pot bought from a garage sale (no rust still all black). I use a large dipping laddle I obtained through a friend who had no idea what it for also cast(has minor rust) and about 8 buckets of wheel wieghts a couple pounds of pure antimony beads and a couple pounds of pure tin bar. I use Beeswax beads for flux.

My prediciment

I cast all the wheel wieghts into 1# Lyman ingots with no troubles. Since i am loading for 450 marlin, 45-70, 308mx, 30-06, 30-30 I was trying to reach a goal of lyman #2 with a brinell hardness of 15. My prilimanary ratio started at a rough calculation of .6# of antimony and .3# of tin since i hear you can cast with only 3% tin to save some money to 25# of ww. After an hour of fluxing mixing repeating I get this nasty layer of dross or what i thought was dross. It was a grey and black dust probally 1/4" thick on the whole surface. After skimming the dross and fluxing again i cast into ingots and tested with a lee tester to come out to only a 12bhn. So back to the smelter i went with another .25# of antimony and .18# of tin. Only to produce the same dust again and when re casted it turned out to be 12BHN again..

Is there something i am doing wrong i heat the mixture and then add tin to it then flux like crazy and then sprinkle antimony beads stir flux stir flux stir flux..... I am concerned the "dust" I am removing is the antimony I paid for...Could it be i am just that dumb and my calculations are off that far? Am i picking up containments somewhere or somehow? I do not have a Lead thermometer could i not have enough heat? Ive read and read this and the lasc boards but im coming up empty handed.....

Sorry for the long post but i figure i can help cause allot of questions by explaining everything I can before you casting gurus ask..Any help would be appreciated since I am dead in the water right now and just cant see throwing more and more materials tward this in a sense elliminating the cost savings of casting Thanks for the great resource and any help in advance I have learned to cast with lead and linotype and pure lead and bought #2 from this site it trully is a great thing but know i need help Thanks[smilie=6:

[badbob454]

i dont know how to add straight antimony beads to a melt maybe someone else can help . i use linotype and solder to add to my alloy

[Budmen]

Looking back now i wished i bought the linotype or the hardball casting lead that rotometals sell but hindsight is 20/20 right next time i will but i just cant see wasting what i have thanks

[clodhopper]

It takes a lot of heat to get the antimony to alloy.
There are other here more familar with the process, hopefully one will chime in.

[glicerin]

I've heard that antimony alloys best with tin(in small amounts with lead). Lots of fluxing, try different waxes, charring wood sticks.

[Sgt Petro]

By itself, pure Antimony (Sb) melts at 1166 F. Sounds like you simply are not getting your melt hot enough to blend both elements.

I think you are probably correct in assuming you're skimming off your Sb.

[KYCaster]

Your main problem is testing immediately after casting. Wait 48 hrs. then test, you'll probably be close to your target hardness.

The gray dross....is it really light weight? If so then its just burnt flux. Skim it off and throw it away.

You can add Sb at normal smelting temps., you don't need extreme heat. A search will turn up at least three threads that describe the process.

Good luck.
Jerry

[badbob454]

Looking back now i wished i bought the linotype or the hardball casting lead that rotometals sell but hindsight is 20/20 right next time i will but i just cant see wasting what i have thanks

perhaps you could melt the antimony with a torch and when it is melted add it to the hot @ 750 degree lead melt maybe it will blend .. cross fingers he he :popcorn:

[Suo Gan]

[QUOTE=Budmen;1370212]First let me explain my setup.
I have a turkey fryer 65,000 btu I believe on top of that a large cast iron pot bought from a garage sale (no rust still all black). I use a large dipping laddle I obtained through a friend who had no idea what it for also cast(has minor rust) and about 8 buckets of wheel wieghts a couple pounds of pure antimony beads and a couple pounds of pure tin bar. I use Beeswax beads for flux.
Don't worry about the rust. You will need to flux your pot heavily and I would suggest dry sawdust and scrape the sides of the pot with a piece of kindling. Once this is done add the tin as you wish for your alloy, melt the antimony in a crucible of some kind with a torch, 'alloy' it in the crucible 50/50 with lead right there. Then add that alloy to the pot. I think this will take care of your predicament. The 'dust' you are taking out was your antimony.

I would also suggest not getting into raw antimony and complex alloying in the future as it raises the BS meter to the tedious level from the start. Just think simple right now. There is no need to do anything complex. Run your melt hot, clean your mold good, use a good lube, and find out your rifles measurements and fit your bullet to that.

Have fun with it!! This is the main thing.

[bumpo628]

Next time you could pick up some of the Rotometals Superhard (30% antimony / 70% lead).
That will make your mixing easier.

[Budmen]

Thanks for all the help...
One question when using sawdust is there a special wood i should use or just what comes outta my dust collector for my wood working tools a mixture of red white oak some pine some plywood....

Also when using sawdust wont that containminate the lead real bad or will it just be allot of dross???

So 48hrs will make a difference in my bhn I dont think i ever read that maybe im just forgetting but i will give it a try

And yes i wish i read up on all this before i ordered the pure elements but truth be told never again I just figured it would be cheaper in the long run but if i figure the propane and time im loosing so much......
[smilie=b:

[Mauser Rat]

You are looking for the carbon after the sawdust burns to flux your melt. So any species works (I use a lot of yellow cedar and spruce) because it is the carbon left over from burning it that you want . And you get carbon from ANY wood when you burn it. Sprinkle DRY sawdust on the top of your melt and let it smolder and burn BEFORE you try to mix it down into your pot or you will be visited by the tinsel fairy. Same with that kindling. If it has ANY water in it you will find out what the tinsel fairy is if you do not already know. Wait until the kindling is charred and dry before you immerse it in the lead.

The carbon in the burned flux is what helps the metal to mix back into the lead by reversing oxidation of your metals. Then you can simply skim the dross off the top if you are ladle casting. I have a bottom pour pot and simply leave a layer of char on the surface of the melt to slow down oxidation. It is not a contaminant. It is saving the most expensive parts of your alloy.

Have a good one and watch out for that tinsel fairy. Don't ask me how I know about her majesty,

Kevin

[dragonrider]

What Mauser Rat said but I will reiterate that when you put sawdust ontop of your melt DO NOT mix it into your melt until it has burned to ash completely. Two reasons, it won't flux worth a hoot before it turns to ash because the carbon is what does the trick and second therre is that tinsel fairy thing. No matter how dry you think sawdust is........... IT AIN'T. Any amount of moisture getting below the surface of melted lead will expand into steam 16 hundred times its original volume instantly. That means large amounts of hot lead flying out of the pot in all directions, that can be very painful.
What wood does not really matter unlless you have allergies to certain woods or nuts, if so do not use woods like walnut, chestnut etc, pressure treated wood should also be avoided.

[shotman]

You said "beads" you have alot of surface area and Sb will oxidize, so you are not getting much REAL metal. would be best to get the chunks next time .
as for saw dust cut some of your wood WITHOUT the plywood. It has glue in it and will not make a good carbon flux

[cajun shooter]

Pat Marlin on this forum sells a wood flux that I have used for over 3 years now. It is not sawdust but more like shavings. It has a wonderful smell that my wife loves. He packs a Priority Mail Box so full that I used one for over two years. I even add a small handful after my alloy is fluxed as it protects the mix from oxidation and leaves a nice smell to your casting area. It's well worth the $20 TYD.

[fredj338]

AS noted, antimony is diff to melt on it's own, but easily melts as part of an alloy. I don't think you really need to add much antimony to clip ww to get to Lyman #2. At 9# of ww + 1# of lino, pretty close, melts together nicely & makes it a whole lot easier.

[largom]

Testing for BHN right after casting will give false readings. I have found that "air cooled" boolits require up to 4 weeks to "age harden" and stabilize. For my hunting boolits I mix 60% lead and 40% WW with 1% added tin air cooled and aged.

Larry

[Budmen]

Well i waited for 48hrs like suggested to do yet another brinell hardness test i also took the chance to add 1/4lb more antimony fluxed and fluxed and stirred for 1hr and 15min still got the dust and again got bhn of 12.5 I have some pure lead i think i will try to make up some 30% antimony to alloy later but what can i do now nothing i do raises my bhn and i am wasting more and more pure antimony.........I read all over how people do it but i cannot get the mixture to change maybe ill add another pound see if that changes anything

[onondaga]

Plus 1 on what Larry said. Your BHN12 alloy will age to about 15 in a month.

If you alloy so your bullets drop at BHN 15 they will rise in hardness also in about a month. I think you have already got good results and you should just start casting boolits.

Also when alloying different metals it is easiest to get the highest melt temp metal fluid first and then add metals descending in melt temps. Antimony doesn't just melt right in--- it dissolves slowly into alloy like a cough drop melts in your mouth and there is no way to rush dissolving Antimony into a boolit alloy. It takes patience and stirring helps too.


Gary

[R.M.]

You might want to visit this site. It might clear some issues up.

http://www.theantimonyman.com/

[Sonnypie]

I too have a woodworking shop. But I won't use my collection system sawdust because it has all manners of stuff in it.
So...my thoughts turned to the ground walnut media I use in my tumblers for brass. I tried some of the used at first, and it seemed to work fine.
I think I will look further into using the used media for fluxing, it might be a way to use up the dirtied media.
But for now decided it is cheap enough for me to use the new stuff made with ground English Walnut shells. That worked fine.
I, and my entire shop, has this wonderful smoked smell.
The wife poked her head into the shop and asked if I was burning something.
"Yes." I replied through the smokey haze.
Eventually it vented on out through the roof vent.
But I have some purdy lead alloy, and purdy boolits, for a mere two teaspoons of my media.
(I got it at Petco. It's called lizard litter, and is for terrariums with lizards. Cheap walnut shell media. And no shipping charges. I HATE shipping charges! [smilie=b:)

[Budmen]

Right now i am trying to cast ingots so i can fit the required amount into my production pot. If the ingots are 15 when they drop when i reheat in the production pot wont the bhn go back to 15?

Also when i read through the whole antimony man site it says only ww will age harden and high tin values will age soften? can anyone confirm this or am i reading wrong again.....

I realize antimony take a long time to disolve and I have waited stirred fluxed and waited hrs....The problem is i am still getting this dust matter on top of my melt after all the antimony beads or shot dissolve and no matter what it will not dissolve. I pulled some "dust " or dross of the mixture let it cool and then put it in a spoon and hit it with a torch the stuff turns red but will not melt but the same test with the antimony shot and the antimony turns to a liquid....

Im starting to think i somehow may have got some zinc in the batch but everything i read says zinc would make the mould not fill out so i cast some boolits just to see and they look great except some frosting which i attribute to the melt being so hot trying to disolve the unknown "dust"

Any other ideas other then throw away the antimony and go back to linotype or hardball???

[R.M.]

I haven't looked through the Antimonyman's site for a while, but does he not recommend a special flux? Seems to me he did, and I have no idea what it was.

[David2011]

Don't forget Drillspot.com for polishing media. I got 40 pounds to my door for about $22.00. No shipping charges other than what was built into the price but the price was good.

David

[largom]

Right now i am trying to cast ingots so i can fit the required amount into my production pot. If the ingots are 15 when they drop when i reheat in the production pot wont the bhn go back to 15?

Also when i read through the whole antimony man site it says only ww will age harden and high tin values will age soften? can anyone confirm this or am i reading wrong again.....

I realize antimony take a long time to disolve and I have waited stirred fluxed and waited hrs....The problem is i am still getting this dust matter on top of my melt after all the antimony beads or shot dissolve and no matter what it will not dissolve. I pulled some "dust " or dross of the mixture let it cool and then put it in a spoon and hit it with a torch the stuff turns red but will not melt but the same test with the antimony shot and the antimony turns to a liquid....

Im starting to think i somehow may have got some zinc in the batch but everything i read says zinc would make the mould not fill out so i cast some boolits just to see and they look great except some frosting which i attribute to the melt being so hot trying to disolve the unknown "dust"

Any other ideas other then throw away the antimony and go back to linotype or hardball???


Wheel Weights are an alloy just like you are making! Your alloy WILL age harden. If your "dust" dosn't melt then it's just dirt or oxidized particles. Flux good, stir your alloy good while fluxing. Cast some boolits and then wait one month and test for hardness and shootability.

Larry

[fredj338]

I too have a woodworking shop. But I won't use my collection system sawdust because it has all manners of stuff in it.
So...my thoughts turned to the ground walnut media I use in my tumblers for brass. I tried some of the used at first, and it seemed to work fine.
I think I will look further into using the used media for fluxing, it might be a way to use up the dirtied media.
smilie=b:)
I would probably avoid the old tumbling media. It has lead dust in it from cleaning the cases, very amall particles & adding them to 800deg molten lead & any resulting smoke can't be good for you.

[Sonnypie]

I would probably avoid the old tumbling media. It has lead dust in it from cleaning the cases, very amall particles & adding them to 800deg molten lead & any resulting smoke can't be good for you.

Probably right about that Fred.
Not to mention the other fun stuff it gets in it like brass dust, and polishing media with it's potpourri of who-knows-what.
A spoonful or two of virgin ground walnut shells seems more appealing.

My sawdust barrel has all manners of modern day glues in it from machining MDF and plywood's and glued up oddities made from saw mill scrap.

Even I would recommend NOT using lizard litter from a lizard cage.
No, no, no! 800 degree lizard poo could not be pleasant. :roll: ;)

[Sonnypie]

Don't forget Drillspot.com for polishing media. I got 40 pounds to my door for about $22.00. No shipping charges other than what was built into the price but the price was good.

David

Thanks David. It's always good to know of other sources.
Drillspot corn media. (http://www.drillspot.com/products/499763/econoline_526020g-40_40_lbs_blast_media) 25.89 and 3 day free shipping!
That makes the price.... drumroll..... $25.89! (Probably, maybe plus taxes.) Corn media.

I didn't weigh the Lizard Litter (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752164&utm_source=googleproduct&utm_campaign=2752164&utm_medium=cse&mr:trackingCode=9DC82C64-C881-DE11-B712-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA), but it came in 10 quarts. About half of a 5 gallon bucket. I was happy about it.


:hijack: Sorry Budmen.

Ima Beginner myself. As such, I chose to buy Lyman #2 alloy to get rolling from Rotometals.
I, too, highly recommend you would get your "cracked" antimony from them in that hardener formula. 30% Antimony, 70% lead.
(http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/30_antimony_70_lead.htm)
They do the work and you get something easy for you to work with. It will melt and blend at normal melting temperatures.
I'm a "Fan" now of Rotometals.
And it saves me a lot of the metallurgy headaches. [smilie=b:

Of course, YMMV. ;)

[KYCaster]

Wheel Weights are an alloy just like you are making! Your alloy WILL age harden. If your "dust" dosn't melt then it's just dirt or oxidized particles. Flux good, stir your alloy good while fluxing. Cast some boolits and then wait one month and test for hardness and shootability.

Larry



Yeah, what he said.

CHILL Grasshopper! :roll:

Have you cast any boolits yet? Have you loaded and shot any of the boolits yet?

How do you know your alloy won't work? Don't obsess over things that probably don't matter. Try it and see what happens before you decide you're doing something wrong.

Take a little break from smelting :coffeecom. Cast some boolits, load some boolits, shoot some boolits then tell us what happened.

You might be pleasantly surprised.

Jerry

[canyon-ghost]

Any other ideas other then throw away the antimony and go back to linotype or hardball???



I can think of some. I don't have sawdust for carbon so, I use parafin wax or candle wax (same thing). It works because it's a hydrocarbon. I throw a big chunk ( maybe 1" square)on the surface and let it melt down. When the white smoke starts, I light it with a fireplace lighter(long handled kind). It's extremely flammable, and has orange flames about 12" high until it burns down. When it goes out, there's just brownish black ash on the surface.

I can tell you that wheelweight is good without fussing over. I have less trouble using it than trying to combine an alloy. Adding Linotype got me the kind of mess you're describing once. I know how to beat the hardness factor but, that means water quenching. There's an added danger of using cold water around hot lead. One drop converted to steam at an expansion rate of 1700 to 1, and pop! Lead goes straight up.

But it isn't complicated either. You just use a 5 gallon bucket of water with something submerged in the bottom, old tee shirt, towel, etc, to catch bullets. You can put sponges on the surface of the water or cover with a cloth to drop them gently into the water.

It's a good idea to place the bucket a few steps away from the lead pot too.

You just drop them out of the mold, wipe the mold on a towel at the table to keep water from getting to the lead pot, then pour some more. By the time you finish pouring several hundred, they're cool (it's almost instantaneous anyway) and you can dump the water and roll the bullets out onto the floor or pick them up and seperate from the water.

The hardness is incredible, right then too! Smack one with a hammer, now smack an air-cooled. You WILL see the difference.
As long as you can water quench without major incidents, you can harden bullets.

Ron

[Budmen]

See the problem is the guy who gave me all the lead said he just wanted some (50#) of lyman #2 when I get it done I have cast with just the wheel weights and water quenching not even worrying about BHN for m y 44mag 357 mag 30-30 and other relitivley slow calibers....Which performed great on targets and looked to expand well on Gongs So me personally wouldn't have a problem using them for game. However my deal was Lyman #2 plus he is the man who is testing the lead for me since my Cabin Tree Tester has not arrived yet.... The whole reason I am sweating this is the man asked for his lead so he could get his guns ready for hunting season and he perticularly wants his lyman #2............

[bumpo628]

See the problem is the guy who gave me all the lead said he just wanted some (50#) of lyman #2 when I get it done I have cast with just the wheel weights and water quenching not even worrying about BHN for m y 44mag 357 mag 30-30 and other relitivley slow calibers....Which performed great on targets and looked to expand well on Gongs So me personally wouldn't have a problem using them for game. However my deal was Lyman #2 plus he is the man who is testing the lead for me since my Cabin Tree Tester has not arrived yet.... The whole reason I am sweating this is the man asked for his lead so he could get his guns ready for hunting season and he perticularly wants his lyman #2............

Another way to do it would be to mix magnum shot and tin. Magnum shot has about 4 to 6% antimony.
Just mix 50 lbs of shot with 2.5 lbs of tin and you'll make a pretty close Lyman #2.

[Char-Gar]

I have never tried starting with raw materials. I have always mixed different alloys or added a little time.

I do know that over fluxing and over skimming can remove some of the good stuff from a melt.

Also these lead testers available to handloaders are not all that accurate. The difference between 12 and 15 may just be the tester.

[Budmen]

I think i Figured it out!!!!!!!!

Searching and searching I found this
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-103336.html

This seems to be what I am getting only I let it get past the yellow stage and it turns brown...when I heated it with a torch it turns red and stays that way making red lead......

I ordered a lead thermometer and some superhard from rotometals today this should cure me but what to do with the pure antimony i have left??????

When i get the thermomter I will try melting some lead pure lead and alloying in the antimony at 700 degrees to make some of my own superhard anyone know a good amount to start with how big of a batch or just calculate and go?

Thanks For al the help I think i can do it know! i think i can i think i can i think i can

[Sonnypie]

Well now, Lookie here Budmen. (http://www.rotometals.com/Metals-we-buy-back-s/60.htm)

Give Rotometals a call and see what you can work out. Maybe a trade for your beads.
(Sounds like Lewis and Clark. :popcorn: )

[MikeS]

When you were skimming off the dross, did you save it? Chances are it's high in antimony, and if you still have it, you should try melting it again as some others here have mentioned to try and save as much of it as you can. I always save the dross, and several times I've melted it down, and recovered quite a bit of lead that was mixed in with the 'real' dross!

[Sonnypie]

Another way to do it would be to mix magnum shot and tin. Magnum shot has about 4 to 6% antimony.
Just mix 50 lbs of shot with 2.5 lbs of tin and you'll make a pretty close Lyman #2.

Bimpo628,
Yesterday I got 100 # of Magnum shot for $35 a bag (4 bags). With taxes it came out to $153. xx
So if I add 3# of Rotometals bar tin ($17.99 per), to 50 # of the shot, the alloy price comes up to $2.34 a pound Figuring a yield of 53 pounds of alloy.
RotoMetals is 2.89 a pound for Lyman #2.
But you miss out on the fun of mixing it up yourself.

Or $124.02 for home made (with extra tin) VS: $153.17 for certified RotoMetals alloy.
$29.15 difference. :wink:

Humm... my bags of shot are not looking that appealing right now. [smilie=1: Other than they can be used either way.

Although I did go through one 25# today. I filled up the shot chamber in the shot shell reloader, and smelted down the rest of the bag and added some 95/5 lead-free solder to tin it up.
It produced good boolits. And the hardness appeared to be close to the L-2 I have.
(Comparing one to the other in cup ingot samples, and my shade tree mechanic way of hardness testing.) [smilie=1:

[wills]

Have you checked with The Antimony Man about this?

[gbrown]

I would suggest that you read the thread by Grumpy One under General, Classic Stickies "Toughness of Lead-Tin-Antimony". Some good info in that.