I Am Puzzled...

[BCB]

I am puzzled by some of the groups I shot this afternoon…

A Blackhawk and the 45-270-SAA and SR-4756…

I would pick 3 chambers at random and load them side-by-side…

Without fail, the 1st round would stay in the 2.5 inch circle, but the 2nd and 3rd round would stay there also, but about 180° from the 1st round. The 2nd and 3rd round would touch and two the groups showed the boolits almost in the same hole…

The group would be at the 2” mark…

I wonder why the 1st round was so radical in ALL cases?...

Is it “setting” something in the Blackhawk and the next 2 rounds take advantage of that?...

Baffled…

BCB

[BeeMan]

First shot after loading goes one way, the the next two cluster together. Random chambers selected for the 3 shots. Sounds like a change in grip, though a mechanical play aspect could still be inferred.

Added: is 4756 position sensitive? Could recoil be shifting the powder in the case?

[subsonic]

See if you can duplicate it at will. Does shooting a cylinderful produces less than 2" with only that first shot out? My guess is that it's first shot syndrome. Shooter related - not gun.

But really, we're all just guessing. You're the one with the gun and ammo. Load 3, but not in a row. Spin and dont look. See if you have the same result with some empty cylinders in there to surprise you.

[stubshaft]

Better lubricity of the lube as the barrel warms up. Had a similar problem with Felix loob. I woould get vertical stringing as the lube warmed up in the barrel.

[Matthew 25]

I vote change in grip, load one round at a time and try.

[BCB]

A few of pics...

Targets are not oriented as they were pinned to the target holder...

The two targets that indicate only 2 holes actually have 3 hits. Two go into 1 hole...

I think they are too consistent to be a grip difference...

It is always the 1st round and I am shooting off of sandbags. I don't lift the handgun from the sandbags between shoots...

I am going to try the "powder is location sensitive later today...

Thanks...BCB

[44man]

Does the sandbag "set" after the first shot? Any change in the rear bag will string shots. It gets tighter so it will change barrel rise.
Several other things to look for;
Case tension, is it different from case to case?
Are the last two shots caused by moving boolits out from recoil?
Powder position of course.
Grip pressure, are you holding the gun tighter for the last two shots?
Are you using magnum primers? If so, stop using them, they move boolits out too much before a good burn. That changes case capacity.
Soft boolits? They cause fliers.
Hard lube that doesn't work until the barrel warms?
I have used Felix from day one when it was first posted at Castpics and it has increased accuracy in every gun. It will not cause stringing even when the gun is blazing hot. The stearate raises the melting point.
Alox? It burns and leaves ash in the bore that can dry out between strings of shots. It can be tamed a little with beeswax. I have always thought it is the worst ingredient ever to put in lube.

[BCB]

Thanks for all of the replies so far…

There are sure a lot of variables to deal with…

I think with the consistency of the group being shot, it has to be something mechanical with the handgun—although, maybe not—more a bit later…

It is highly unlikely that different neck tension, different boolit weights, boolits moving under recoil (checked this one), lube problems, etc are causing the problem…

The odds are just too great that any of the mentioned deficiency would only occur with the 1st round OR with the next 2 rounds. Either order could be the culprit…

As far as the sandbags goes, I was beginning to second-guess myself so I took the ol’ Security-Six in 357 to the range and shot four 3-shot groups. Filled the cylinder with 358429’s loaded with H-110 and then Lil’Gun. The groups averaged around 1.25” center to center. So, it doesn’t seem to be my technique or the sandbags…

But, I did start to increase the charge of SR-4756 to the starting charge recommended by felix in another post, that being 12 grains with the 45-270-SAA (283 grains). I am now starting to get groups more triangular in shape than the ones previously mentioned, but 2 are still very close with the 1st one wild—by 180°…

I think the 180° is a clue also…

Yet, I still find it hard to believe that the problem could have been from a light load—still the consistency of the 1st shot always being the radical one…

I also loaded 4 rounds and fired the first one at a can and then shoot a 3-shot group. The groups stayed more triangular that way. It is that first shot that is doing something. I happens everytime the cylinder is opened and then reloaded...

Still a mystery…

But, I must admit that this Ruger has been the most difficult to get to shoot well of any of the 4 other ones I have…

I wonder how much distance there should be between the rim and were it would contact the handgun when the cylinder is closed... Could that be a problem?...

And so it goes…

BCB

[subsonic]

Your last question about how much space should be between the back of the case and breach face has merit. That is "headspace" on a revolver. It should be tight enough that a high primer will hang up. There is a spec for this on the ruger form. Look for IBOK for the blackhawk from iowegan. You will have to be a member with so many posts to access this.

If the cases are moving when the firing pin hits them, they usually will not fire...

Conversely, as the cylinder rotates the recoil sheild's taper should catch any cases that have backed out and push them in or hang the gun up if they won't go all the way into the chamber.

[subsonic]

Here's something else to try. Load one round at a time using different chambers ( with empties in the others) and see how it groups. Repeat after shaking powder to the back of the case near the primer and then try A few with the powder shaken forward in the case against the base of the boolit.

[stubshaft]

Along the same line you can load a marked chamber and see if their is any change as this would eliminated alot of the variables.

[Lloyd Smale]

my guess is grip too. Most people have a tendency to lightly grip the first shot and then grip the hell out of it after that.

[44man]

Yes, there is nothing wrong with the gun. It is just DIFFERENT.
Control is not there yet.
But why not try a different powder? I have to wonder if that is not the problem. Try Unique or 231.

[BABore]

Agree with Lloyd. Your going from loading the three rounds to setting up for the first shot, Hand position or pressure is different than the next two shots. Next time, load 4, shoot the first one off target, then shoot for group with the last 3. Bet it goes away.

[Multigunner]

The first shot being out of groupings was a fairly common situation with .30 long range target rifles in the 1930's and to some extent in modern times.
They got around this by firing one round into the ground before begining the competition, to begin the match in a "one round dirty" bore condition.

Metal fouling was the major factor but powder fouling also had an effect.

To prevent sudden shifts in zero and inconsistent groupings most competition shooters of the 20's and 30's would not clean the rifles bores at all during the season. Often they had to replace the barrel after each shooting season due to the corrosive primers and effects of firing despite accumulated metal fouling.

Snipers also sometimes chose to not clean their rifles bores unless they could fire several rounds before taking the rifle back out into the field.

The British added mineral jelly to the formula for Cordite because without it Cordite burned too clean and a microscopic layer of burned on carbon fouling had been found to reduce adherence of metal fouling.
They had also noted the tendency for the first shot from a clean cold bore to go far outside the grouping of subsequent shots.

The .303 Savage cartridge originally used a .310-311 bullet, same dia as the British .303 bullets, but the bore of the .303 Savage rifles had a much tighter bore of .3085-.309.
In early testing they found that the first couple of shots went far outside the subsequent groupings and that when slow fired with barrel allowed to cool off between shots groups were terrible.
They figured the better accuracy of the last shots of a long string was due to the barrel expanding with heat of firing which loosened up bullet to bore fit reducing friction of the oversized bullets.
They then went with a nominal .30 bullet of .309 or less. Accuracy then settled down remarkably with much less variation from first shot to last.

The .303 designation for the .303 Savage had been a marketing ploy to begin with, to cash in on the association to the .303 British and avoid the shadow of the .30-40 and .30-30 cartridges both of which were also used in Lever Action hunting rifles.

Just how well this could tie into the above described situation of the revolver is hard to say,
but you can expect that the bullet would always behave differently in a clean cold bore than in a bore with even slight fouling coating the surfaces.

[Larry Gibson]

What is your "cone of fire" with that load with 10 or 12 shots using all the chambers?

Three shots is not enough to get a statistical reference or enough to adequately assume any "confidence" that the results are the grouping capability of that load. Looking at all the targets and assuming no sight change then the cone of fire with that load appears to be slightly larger than the target or slightly smaller if orientation was corrected. Orienting the targets over each other would probably represent a cone of fire comparable to the 10 - 12 shot group. Based on that I would say the 3 shot groups are just random dispersion that may or may not show a pattern. As long as the shots land within the cone of fire just "hold hard and shoot straight".

Wht you might do is mark or identify each chamber and shoot a minimum 7 shot group with each chamber using the same load and sight setting. Use 6 targets of the same kind as you've done but keep them oriented as to where on the target dot the point of aim was. That will show you the group dispersion, if any, differences that exist between the different chambers. it also will indicate if one or more chambers might be "more accurate" than the others. Those can be used for precision shooting if needed, like used for the 1st shot on game.

As noted though, a changing grip can cause the group patterns as described if the revolver and you can shoot a cone of fire with a consistent grip half the size of the 3 shot groups shown.

Larry Gibson

[BCB]

Many of the post verify what I have already tried prior to my original post…

Different powders: 2400, 300-MP, AA#5, AA#7, AA#9S, AL-8, Blue Dot, Bullseye, Green Dot, H-110, HP-38, 4227, Lil’Gun, SR-4756, WC-820, WIN-231, Unique and Trail Boss…

Different chambers—yep, even fire 4 rounds. One at a can and the other 3 at a target. Still very minimal accuracy. No 2 in one hole and one someplace else, but not good accuracy…

Grip problem. Ain’t going there as I shoot a Security-Six, Single-Six, Super Redhawk and a T/C 445 SM. Not an accuracy problem with any of them…

Recoil fear? Naaa, the SRH with a 429650 and a maximum charge of H-110. And the 445SM with a maximum charge WC-680 or H-110. Both make the 45 Colt seem easy…

Boolit sizes: As cast, 0.454” and 0.452”…

Lube: Alox and Carnauba Red…

Primers: CCI-300, CCI-350, and Tulammo Large Pistol…

Random chambers...

The only thing I haven’t tried that is within the reloader's grasp is a different boolit. But, in all honesty, I hate to spend the money for a new mold as I think the problem is mechanical with the handgun…

(Although a jacketed bullet might be worth a try as I can get a box of 50 for much less than a mold.)…

Headspace? Don’t know as I have not gotten any numbers from other sites as to what the gap should be between the back of the cylinder and the face of the handgun. It looks awfully great to me. I primer that is seated above flush will not make it difficult to turn the cylinder…

This is the first Ruger that I have had such problems with. Accuracy is still acceptable, but it will never be as good as the previous Rugers that I just mentioned…

I will keep reading and thinking…

I don’t expect “bench rest” accuracy, but I do expect it to shoot as good as my other handguns…

Never traded a handgun in my life, but this one is approaching the edge...

Thanks all…BCB

[subsonic]

Is the sight loose?

[BCB]

Is the sight loose?

I am sittin' here grinnin'!!!

I never gave that a thought...

Guess I only think 'scopes can be loose...

I will check that the next time I get the courage to grab the Blackhawk...

BCB

[dvnv]

You said Blackhawk in your first post...later mention opening the cylinder. Is Blackhawk correct?

You said 180 degrees off, does that mean on the horizontal? Is it always to the same side? Which one?

One the mechanical side:
If it is a Blackhawk, have you tried a different base pin?


On the shooter side:
Have you tried without the rear sandbag?

[felix]

Send the gun to the 44man. I have a few, in fact quite a few, say about 90 percent of them in the closet, that need his expertise/experience. ... felix

[BCB]

You said Blackhawk in your first post...later mention opening the cylinder. Is Blackhawk correct?

You said 180 degrees off, does that mean on the horizontal? Is it always to the same side? Which one?

One the mechanical side:
If it is a Blackhawk, have you tried a different base pin?


On the shooter side:
Have you tried without the rear sandbag?

It is a Blackhawk and if I mentioned opening the cylinder, that was not meant to sound like a double-action revolver...

It is 180 degrees in any direction...

The base pin is difficult to put in and out. Worse than it ever has been. I tried cleaning it thoroughly, but it is still difficult...

I didn't use a rear sandbag. Only a mouse pad to keep the grips from sliding on the table...

BCB

[felix]

Ah! Do NOT let the gun touch that pad! ... felix

[Multigunner]

It is a Blackhawk and if I mentioned opening the cylinder, that was not meant to sound like a double-action revolver...

It is 180 degrees in any direction...

The base pin is difficult to put in and out. Worse than it ever has been. I tried cleaning it thoroughly, but it is still difficult...

I didn't use a rear sandbag. Only a mouse pad to keep the grips from sliding on the table...

BCB
A very slightly warped arbor pin could be the problem.
I've made replacement cylinder pins for several low end revolvers due to cylinder binding. you could see the difference in the fit between cylinder face and breech as the pin caught and rotated throwing the axis out of whack.

One badly beat up pull pin DA .38 wouldn't put six rounds in a washtub due to bent pin and poorly finished cylinder face.
After reaming out the axis hole and making an oversized pin, I turned the face of the cylinder flat and perpendicular then set the breech back a thread. result was an amazing improvement in accuracy, far better than one would expect from a low cost snubbie .38. Better than most high dollar snubbies for that matter.

[44man]

It is a Blackhawk and if I mentioned opening the cylinder, that was not meant to sound like a double-action revolver...

It is 180 degrees in any direction...

The base pin is difficult to put in and out. Worse than it ever has been. I tried cleaning it thoroughly, but it is still difficult...

I didn't use a rear sandbag. Only a mouse pad to keep the grips from sliding on the table...

BCB
AAAHHH, Felix is correct! you are bouncing the grip from a hard surface. DO YOU NEED A BILLY CLUB?
Clean the cylinder pin and hole, then put some STP in the hole and on the ratchet. Turn the cylinder as you install the pin to distribute lube.
You need bashed from shooting from a hard surface! [smilie=1:
MOUSE PAD!!!! HA, HA, HA, HA!

[BABore]

Bag the bbl close to the frame and put a bag or rolled up towel under your wrists. The butt should have nothing but air under it for the entire recoil cycle. Also be careful that the ejector rod tab does not hook the front bag during recoil and that your trigger finger doesn't touch the side of the frame/trigger guard. It's a good idea to have a spotter when developing bench technique. Have them watch the gun's recoil pattern and work to keep it consistent.

[felix]

Might do mo'betta' with hands on the towel, not wrist(s) on the towel, rolled up or not. Recoil should be up and clear everything, straight off of the rolled up towel. ... felix

[BABore]

Might do mo'betta' with hands on the towel, not wrist(s) on the towel, rolled up or not. Recoil should be up and clear everything, straight off of the rolled up towel. ... felix

My rolled up towels aren't that skinny and catch both wrist and hands, but yeah, like you said.:bigsmyl2:

[BCB]

Well, I tried some of the techniques on holding the handgun and shooting and I think there might have been some improvement…

Here is why I think that.

No, the groups didn’t shrink to “benchrest” accuracy, but I certainly don’t expect that from a factory wheel gun…

I shoot at a target that I print from my printer and it has a 2.5” circle. Since all of the targets printed have the circle at the same location, I can hold the targets together and hold them toward a light source and see all of the boolit holes…

Well, I took three different weights of powder charge using the same powder and loaded the cylinder up with the three rounds of the 1st weight and then three rounds of the 2nd weight…

I fired the 1st three at a target, then put a new target up and fired the next 3…

I then put another target up and using the last 3 rounds, it fired at it…

I put the 3 targets together and held ot the light and all but 2 of the boolits within the 2.5” circle—the 2 that didn’t were not more than ½” away from the circle edge…

I do know that part of my inconsistency is absolutely due to my eyes. I have a hell of a time using open sights as many do as the age factor creeps into the picture…

I know this is part of the problem as I have a SRH that is ‘scoped and it can put three 429650’s into an inch, center to center, or a bit greater at 50 yards. One point to look at with a ‘scope…

But, I do have a few more rounds ready to go the my range a bit later this morning so we shall see if I can continue to place them in the 2.5” circle…

Thanks all…BCB

[BCB]

Is the sight loose?

After trying different holding techniques, I did see an improvement as I mentioned, but not necessarily with tightening the groups…

So, I did check the sights, but I bit more thorough….

They actually move left and right a bit when pressure is put on them by fingers…

I checked my other Rugers with adjustable sights, and the Security-Six moves ever so slightly, but barely visible with the unaided eye…

The SRH and the Single-Six rear sights are pretty much rock solid…

So, I do think it is a mechanical problem with this handgun…

The rear sight moves, plain and simple. The recoil is placing it at a different location. Maybe the 1st shot sets it and then when I remove the cases after they are fired, I am placing my hand again the rear sight and that moves it to another location…

Don’t know, but I do know that part of the problem is the rear sight…

The pic, not too good, shows a wooden match stick that I wedged under the rear sight. Groups stayed near 1.5” at 20 yards and that is acceptable for me…

Now if I can just repeat those groups with the match stick in place, the problem may be solved for the most part…

Then, I will need to figure out why this sight is moving. Maybe the screw for vertical adjustment is too short and not enough threads are catching. Or maybe the spring that applies tension to the sight is not strong enough…

Hate to have to have a match stick under it…

I will continue to continue…

BCB

[subsonic]

I really like my Bowen rear target sight on my Bisley. $80 or so. Repeatable clicks, fits tight, and presents a great sight picture.

It's not the "rough country". You could probably drill and tap your existing sight for a set screw like the rough country uses to apply pressure opposite the elevation screw.

[BCB]

I really like my Bowen rear target sight on my Bisley. $80 or so. Repeatable clicks, fits tight, and presents a great sight picture.

It's not the "rough country". You could probably drill and tap your existing sight for a set screw like the rough country uses to apply pressure opposite the elevation screw.

I looked at the sight you have and it seems the same as the Ruger one but it must fit better to not have slop sideways. Is that why it doesn't move...

And, I looked at the "rough country" and does it require some gunsmith work to install. Maybe like drilling and tapping for a set screw...

That would be out of my scope of things I wish to attempt..

Still, with the match stick under the rear site, I shoot good groups today...

Very acceptable to me...

BCB

[subsonic]

The target sight fits TIGHT. I had to use a file and gently remove some casting lines in the sight cutout in the frame. No big deal, minor stuff. About 5min of work at most. Then it is a snug fit and does NOT move. Some guns do not even need the filing. Nice clicks and great sight picture as a bonus.

The Rough Country requires the same fitting. The Rough Country sight has 2 screws for elevation adjustment. One allows the sight to travel up like most sights, the other is a set screw that pushes against the frame cutout putting everything in tension - works like the spring on your factory sight, but will not allow movement once tight.

I was suggesting that you could drill and tap your existing factory sight to provide that set screw to push against the frame and lock everything in place. Just pop the sight out and drill another hole in front of the elevation adjustment screw hole. Tap it and install a set screw to push down on the frame.

I like the Target sight better than the Rough Country. My best advice is to buy the Bowen Target sight and be happy!