Dacron filler with XMP 5744 & .45-70?

[GrayFox]

I've been reading about the use of a dacron puff filler with 2400 in the .45-70, and I'm wondering if anyone uses this filler with 5744 with charges in the 24-28 grain range? Even with a heavy crimp I've gotten more unburned powder than I'd like with 400 grain boolits and I'm wondering if the dacron might help to reduce that? All comments will be appreciated. GF

[Larry Gibson]

GrayFox

I ran a test using several fillers and several powders in the 45-70 with 413 gr commercial cast bullets. I measured the velocity and pressure with an Oehler M43. The test rifle was a Siamese Mauser with a 24" barrel. I found using 25 gr of 5744 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler gave excellent accuracy at 1226 fps and 22,400 psi(M43). Accuracy was 1.45 moa at 100 yards. The same 25 gr load of 5744 w/o the dacron filler went 1166 fps with 18,400 psi(M43). accuracy was 3"+ moa. There was still some unburned powder with the dacron filler but not near as much as with out the filler. Obviously the dacron filler increased the ignition consistency as evidenced by the increased velocity and psi along with less unburned powder.

Increasing the amount of powder to increase the psi to still a safe level in TDs while using the dacron filler further reduces the amount of unburned 5744. Also I found that a 3/4 to 1 gr dacron filler is quite enough and increasing the dacron to over 1.5 gr resulted in an accuracy loss.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

Absolutely correct.

The "prevailing opinion" that such powders as 2400 and 5744 "don't need" fillers or other such techniques is simply horse feathers. They MAY not need them, but on the other hand....it's a mighty good idea to give fillers a try in any load with relatively quick-burning powder.

I rarely use anything other than dacron, although on occasion some Cream of wheat and even BLACKPOWDER have found their ways into use as fillers.

Dacron doesn't always improve the load, but better results occur frequently-enough to make NOT trying it a very foolish omission.

[GrayFox]

Gentlemen: This is exactly what I was looking for and is typical of the great responses/support I have found on this site. Thanks again. GF

[Maven]

GrayFox, Nothing against fillers or the above adivice, but you may want to try 7/16" paper disk over your charge of 5744 v. the same charge with a dacron filler. In short, you cut the disks with a 7/16" arch punch from those annoying subscription cards that come with magazines & some newspapers. Use a dowel or golf tee to push the disk firmly atop the powder charge and seat your CB. Store the loaded rounds with the bases down/CB's up. This has worked for me for years.

[GrayFox]

Maven:

I'm assuming from your experience that such a think wad creates no danger of a ringed chamber, or am I missing something? GF

[Maven]

GF, First of all, it's not a "wad," but a .002" - .003" disk of paper. And no, the risk of a ringed chamber is probably on a par with using dacron. Secondly, 5744 is designed for reduced loads and as such, really doesn't need a paper disc or dacron tuft to improve its efficiency. In fact, the only instance in which I got lots of unburned 5744 was using Accurate Arms' recommended load for a given CB in the .357mag. (no filler of any kind).

[hornsurgeon]

not 5744, but i use a 1gr tufft with 5gr of unique and a 350gr boolit. great gallery load.

[Larry Gibson]

GrayFox

The "card" (it fits into the "wad" definition in my references) can work well in single shot rifles and where the ammunition is not "handled" a lot such as carried around in a belt or jostled in a vehicle over back roads while hunting. Under those conditions and when used in a repeating rifles where rounds are in the magazine and under the effects of recoil the wad can come loose allowing powder migration around the "card" causing ignition problems and the "card" being left in the bore. Using a dacron filler alleviates all of those potential problems.

The "card" works for Maven under the conditions he uses such and that's fine, no arguement from me. It's just that many years ago when I used a wad I had the problems, as mentioned, under the conditions I used such loads in. After going to the dacron filler I no longer have had those problems and have had nothing but success, most often resulting in increased accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

"The 'card' (it fits into the "wad" definition in my references) can work well in single shot rifles and where the ammunition is not "handled" a lot such as carried around in a belt or jostled in a vehicle over back roads while hunting. Under those conditions and when used in a repeating rifles where rounds are in the magazine and under the effects of recoil the wad can come loose allowing powder migration around the "card" causing ignition problems and the "card" being left in the bore."

Yup, Larry's absolutely right. The thin paper disks/wads I use are for ammo. that's stored with the primer's down and used shortly after it's loaded. Moreover, it's always single loaded in my Marlin #336 to eliminate the problems mentioned above.

[nanuk]

Maven, just so I am clear, you have an airspace between your card wad and your boolit base?

at 0.4375 diameter, they may not offer a "Tight" fit/seal and thereby alleviate or at least mitigate the risk of a ringed chamber?

Can you give us your load, and roughly how much of an airspace is left?

thanks.

'nuk

[Maven]

nanuk, The so-called wads are, or should I say were, a tight fit in the full- or neck-sized .45-70 cases. Tight enough to require a short pc. of dowel or golf tee to seat them atop the powder. The charges was 26gr. and 27gr. AA 5744 + 345gr. - 405gr. CB's sized to .459". When I ran out of the very pricey 5744, I used 17gr, and 18gr. WC 820 (AA #9) with those same .002" - .003" paper disks/wads. Although it is/was possible to dislodge the disk with rough handling or even improprer seating (of the disk), I took every precaution to avoid that. They were loaded, placed primer down/CB up in the proper storage box, taken to the range, loaded through the loading port, and fired. The disks disintegrated on firing, leaving a very fine dust and nothing else: No chamber ringing, bulged cartridges or anything else to suggest excess pressure. Do I still use the disks? No, for three reasons. First, I've used up all of my 5744 and WC 820 so there's no need for extra reloading steps (cutting out the disks + seating them). Second, I found no real gain in accuracy attributable to the disks. Third, I've switched to Unique (13gr. and 14gr.), which isn't position sensitive and, on occasion BP, which fills the case. Both give outstanding accuracy in the Marlin (Microgroove) #336.

[161]

In the basement I found a bag of 100% polyester filler. It says nothing about Dacron. Is this Dacron or something else?

[Larry Gibson]

The "stickey" about 4 threads up from this one explains how to use the dacron/polyester.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=109280

Larry Gibson

[161]

OK, I found a bag about the size of a 4 lbs. powder keg. Should last a day or two I'd guess.
Thanks

[fourarmed]

You have received good advice, but it is always useful to test both ways in your gun. In my cousin's 45-110 Sharps replica I found that 5744 did much better without dacron. Smaller ES and smaller groups. Seems anomalous, but that is what happened.

[beemer]

With 5744 in my 45-70 I had different points of impact with different powder positions. I use a 7 tenths of a grain fluff of dacron to keep things consistant.

Dave

[rockrat]

I use 5744 in my TD, but I use grits as a filler. Card wad on top of the powder, then fill with grits so it is compressed about 1/8" when seating the 425gr boolit. Velocity with the filler load went up about 55fps and accuracy wise, groups shrunk by half

[mstarling]

Dacron fill is not necessary with AA5744. I use it with out in cases as large as .470 Nitro Express and achieve good groups.

I do use a filler with RL15 and jacketed projectiles in that chambering. If you use a filler ... be aware that can result in ringing the chamber if not used properly!

[bubba.50]

no experience with wads in the manner in question but 5744 burns very dirty in my buffalo classic no matter what boolit/lube/gr.weight charge i use. shoots good though.