Vertical stringing

[wire nut]

I have been fighting .357 blackhawk for the past 9 months.I would be lucky to get a six inch group with any load that I used whether cast or J word. I fire lapped my barrell this past week and finally got to shoot yesterday.With 158 rnfp unsized with 4.5 gr unique it finally started to shoot a decent group.
I then tried both 141 and 148 gr wadcutters with 4.0 grs bulleyes and 4.5 gr unique. Both loads shoot very pretty vertical strings about six inches long. These were shot from a sand bag at twenty five yds. I guess that I am asking what I can do to stop the vertical stringing. I am not counting out operator error and if this could be it what would cause this. Thanks for any help and excuse my rambling on. Wire nut

[9.3X62AL]

Neither load is known for velocity variations that would set up stringing like that. I've used that 4.0 x Bullseye weight a LOT in 357 Mag plain-based loading, with both solid wadcutters and SWC's (Lyman #358477). It has done very well for me, it's a great small game and rat load. If your wadcutters are hollow-based, BACK DOWN on the powder weights--use 38 Special HBWC data +10% in 357 loads.

Consistency is the key when bench-testing any firearm. Rest your wrists and upper forearms on the bags--not the revolver. Strive to use the same grip tension and finger/hand placement for each shot. Variations of this kind can REALLY throw bullet strikes galley-west.

Best of luck, sir.

[Dale53]

I often shoot my pistols and revolvers off a rest. I have scopes on some of them so when things are working well, I can get some great groups.

Last fall, I bought one of the inexpensive MTM plastic "Pistol Rests" to try out. They are a bit of a pain to adjust for the proper height, but after that is accomplished, they work VERY well. They snap apart for compact storage in the van. I would hate to be without one. I can do very good work using this little rest. The barrel rests against a neoprene padded rest. It does not "shoot away" from the rest. I can sight it with reliability.

I have access to a Ransom rest but the little MTM is so easy to use that often I don't bother with the Ransom Rest. Further, I can shoot most ANY pistol or revolver (or TC for that matter) and don't require a dedicated insert like the Ransome Rest does, etc.

You might want to try it.

Dale53

[MT Gianni]

2nd Dale on the MTM rest. A handy to have item for my load development. Gianni.

[wire nut]

I have an mtm rest but did not use it yesterday. I used a sand bag and rest the front of the frame on the bag. What has thrown me for a loop is that it shot so well with the 158 gr and started stringing with the wad cutters. I shot some more loaded with 148 wadcutters ( acww from a lyman mold unsized) and 3.0 grs reddot and it didn't string as bad.
This gun has been a learning experience. When I slugged the barrell it had a .003 of an inch constriction where the barrell went in to the frame than what it measured at the muzzle. After 36 lapping loads it still has some constriction at the frame but its almost unbelieveable how much difference lapping the barrell has helped accy.
wire nut

[44man]

I had a lot of fun with the MTM rest and my .475. At every shot, the rest would fly over my head.
The only cause I can come up with for vertical stringing is a drastic change in velocity from shot to shot. Why are you shooting 38 special loads in that gun anyway? I would blame it on powder position and go to a slower powder. Shoot .357 loads!

[wire nut]

These are 38 special loads that I load in a .357 case.I will try to find a full house load that will shoot but I have just started playing with it since I fire lapped the barrell. the gun would not shoot a 25 yd group less that 6 inches with anything I tried before fire lapping.I tried everything from lite 38 specials to hot .357 magnum loads and 38 and .357 factory loads. Yesterday I shot a 2.5 inch group with 4.5 grs unique and 158 gr rnfp cast out of acww. wire nut

[44man]

Wire nut, you say you slugged the bore, but did you check the throat size? I would be interested in that measurement.

[Bass Ackward]

These are 38 special loads that I load in a .357 case.I will try to find a full house load that will shoot but I have just started playing with it since I fire lapped the barrell. the gun would not shoot a 25 yd group less that 6 inches with anything I tried before fire lapping.I tried everything from lite 38 specials to hot .357 magnum loads and 38 and .357 factory loads. Yesterday I shot a 2.5 inch group with 4.5 grs unique and 158 gr rnfp cast out of acww. wire nut


Wire,

Just realize that fire lapping is not an end all unless your problem was a constriction. You actually trade one kind of roughness for another. And depending on the abrasive and quantity of bullets fired, you will usually open up another .0005 more as it smooths up to a lead finish. What I am trying to tell you is that odds are, that the gun will get better still. If you shoot a couple hundred rounds of jacketed now, it will get better quicker.

Then .... the true advantage will show you the results of your work. Many people incorrectly believe that fire lapping is an end all, and sometimes, it is, sometimes it isn't. And sometimes they fire lap but simply don't go far enough to maximize the benefit.

Then they get discouraged and end up selling the gun to someone else who ends up enjoying the efforts of their work. The new guy will try different diameters or mixes again that the first guy will not because he continues to shoot what he shot that worked half a$$ed before and he says, not much inprovement. So you will need to slug everything again in a couple of months and pretty much start over, if you want the "maximum" accuracy that gun will deliver.

[wire nut]

44, The throats on 5 cylinders measure .358 to .3585 inch. 1 cylinder measured 3595 inch. After fire lapping the 5 slugged right at .390 and the other was the same. Wire nut

[Lloyd Smale]

9 times out of 10 if your experiencing vertical stringing with a handgun, especially a single action its because of inconsistant grip stenght. Consentrate real hard on gripping the gun in the exact same place and with the same pressure every time. Get a faily good grip on it not a death grip but dont loose grip it either and ill about bet your group will improve dramaticaly

[georgeld]

Wire Nut:
Check your last post. Looks like you made a serious type there.

Problems I've found with stringing were created by barrel/gun contact on too firm
of bag, rest, etc.

When it comes to fouling, lapping etc. Best thing you can do is forget about it until you've burned at least 2000 rnds of hard cast.

Load up a bucket full and take someone along to help burn 'em up playing. Shoot at rocks, or what ever, but, shoot nothing less than 3-500 at a session. Don't even worry about cleaning things up. IF it's too nasty, wear some rubber gloves.

But, shoot lots of ammo. That will slick out just about any bore.

Once the guns got nothing less than 2500 shot thru it. Then clean it up good and start your testing. I'll bet you'll find a lot less to be concerned about.

Wish you well, happy shootin,

[44man]

I shoot most of my revolvers with a bag under the butt. I have tried all other resting arrangements. (I wiggle too much.) One thing I have to do is to make sure the bag under the butt has the exact same firmness shot to shot. If the bag is soft for a shot, it will go high and if the bag is hard, it will go low. It is very hard to do and takes practice. Most shooters will not get away with it. I get my best groups this way but if you neglect the basics, you will string all over the target. I can do it with the .44, .45, .475 and 45-70.
Wire nut, you made a mistake on the throat size too.

[wire nut]

yes type mistake, should have been .3590 for the five cylinders. Thanks for the heads up. Wire nut

[44man]

You have to an expert typest like me----one finger while I search for each letter!

[9.3X62AL]

One positive little quirk of double-action shooting with the revolver is that hand placement and gripping tension tends to be pretty consistent when firing this way. Once the D/A trigger stroke is learned, people are surprised at how well they can place shots shooting in this way. While I don't recommend it for precise targeting or load testing, on average I do about as well unsupported D/A as I do unsupported single action, at 25-40 yards anyway. Response to training, I suppose--my early career days were in the revolver era, and the first 10 of my 28 years were "roller only". Lotta good info on grip consistency above, and I'm not real consistent firing S/A to this day.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with you I can usually even shoot better at 25 da then single action
One positive little quirk of double-action shooting with the revolver is that hand placement and gripping tension tends to be pretty consistent when firing this way. Once the D/A trigger stroke is learned, people are surprised at how well they can place shots shooting in this way. While I don't recommend it for precise targeting or load testing, on average I do about as well unsupported D/A as I do unsupported single action, at 25-40 yards anyway. Response to training, I suppose--my early career days were in the revolver era, and the first 10 of my 28 years were "roller only". Lotta good info on grip consistency above, and I'm not real consistent firing S/A to this day.

[lovedogs]

Sounds like operator error to me. I can't imagine any pistol shooting that badly on its own with any kind of decent ammo.

Try jamming the front of the frame hard into a sandbag. If you do this with good bags you'll burn heck out of them. For this stuff I make one out of an inner tube filled loosely with floor dry, wired shut at the ends. Then put a small loose bag or a couple pairs of wool socks under the butt. Lay your hand palm up and rest the butt on your hand. The idea is go lend support so you can shoot well but to not sit the butt on anything hard as that will cause bounce. And the bounce is always different, which can cause vertical stringing. If you pay real close attention to your sights and trigger pull you should shoot real good groups.

[44man]

Lovedogs, you sure won't fire more then once with your hand under the butt of the .475 without a bag between your hand and the butt.

[wire nut]

Lovedogs, I kid you not. The gun shot that bad with anything shot in it. Its a shame when a 2 inch barrelled gun would out shoot it. Other people tried the gun and they could do no better. Seems to be a problem with the newer rugers.

[lovedogs]

44man... we were talking about a .357 here, not a dinosaur gun.

[9.3X62AL]

Dinosaur Gun.......too funny.

Wire Nut, that is kind of a strange circumstance. Of course, a lot of today's firearms need to be "finished" after they are built--so some aftermarket refinement might be in order. A real shame, that.

[44man]

But I used to LOVE dinosaur meat! It is hard to come by now darn it.

[lovedogs]

Hey, 44 man... maybe you could try one of those Geico lizards. It'd take quite a pile of them to make a meal but maybe you could satisfy your strange tastes with them! O' course, you'd have to find a much smaller pistola to shoot them with if you wanted to eat them. And it'd, no doubt, take a smaller skinning knife, too. Ha-ha, then they'd be calling you lizard breath. That'd be hard to take, wouldn't it? Geez, we better quit. This is really getting perverse.

[44man]

I love it, don't stop now!

[wire nut]

Was talking to a good friend last nite. He bought 2 45 vaqeros that shoots like a dream with 8.5 gr unique. He shoots cass and he was telling me that other people he shoots with were having the same problem as I'm having with the .357's in the ruger

[44man]

Don't feel too bad about the Ruger, my friend has a brand new Freedom in .357 and it is horrible. The best we have shot at 50 yd's with a variety of ammo is around 6".

[lovedogs]

A defective Ruger would be upsetting. Can you imagine how much more upset you'd be if you paid the big $$ for a Freedom Arms and it was a lemon? Surely, either company would fix their defect, no?

Years ago I found myself close to Freedom, Wy. so I made a slight detour to go there. I'd brought money to buy one of their .44's with me. When I asked to see one of them a lady pointed me to a showcase. I asked if I could handle one. Who, in their right mind, would buy a gun without handling it? Well, she informed me that they didn't let people come in to "play" with their guns. I told her I had the money in my pocket but wasn't going to buy anything without handling it. I also asked if it was possible to tour their factory. She was downright rude. She turned me down flat on both counts. 'Scuse my French but I told her she was a damn fool. I walked out and have been a die-hard Ruger man ever since. As far as I'm concerned they can put their wonderful pistols where the sun don't shine. They'd make good enema material!

[cbrick]

The vertical stringing sounds like a grip problem to me. I spent years trying to improve my 200 yard revolver scores and the following list is what helped the most.

1> Grip
2> Trigger control
3> Grip
4> Sight picture
5> Grip
6> Follow through
7> grip

When shooting firearms with a very slow lock time and barrel time, then add in the revolver's grip frame angle and recoil, the consistency of hand placement and amount of grip is critical to shot placement. Simply loosen your grip and the shot will go way high, tighten your grip on the next shot and you have moved the point of impact way down. The more recoil and the longer the range the worse the condition becomes.

Rick

[Dale53]

I have had rather good luck with my Rugers regarding accuracy. I even bought a Vaquero in .45 Colt that shot well. It had a 4 5/8" barrel and I decided I could do better in the cowboy score matches if I got a longer barrel. I ended up with a Ruger Bisley Vaquero and it shoots fine also with both black powder and smokeless. One very nice memory with the revolver is when I shot a fifty yards slow fire 92 with black powder. I was pretty on that day at Friendship, IN and won all of the matches but one (I got beat at fifty yards:roll:).

Understand, this Bisley Vaquero shoots to the sights, as issured, with both black and smokeless. I find that hard to believe. Ruger sure did their job with this one.

I had an older friend who complained to me his Ruger automatic wouldn't shoot and he was going to box it up and sent it back to Ruger. I suggested he bring the pistol over to the club for me to try out. He brought it over, and I rested it over a piece of rolled up carpet (previously used for a prone pad) and shot several groups under an inch at twenty five yards. He couldn't believe it.

Here's the good part. After I did it, I coached him just a bit and before he left he was shooting quite well with that "inaccurate" old Ruger. He just didn't believe that the pistol would shoot, and believed it so strongly that it wouldn't.

Now, I'm not suggesting that your problem is you, but you might want to have your local club "hotshot" give it a try before you get drastic with it.

If you have access to a Ransome Rest with proper inserts, that would be a sure test to see if it is operator error or a gun problem.

There is no doubt that occasionally a pistol gets out of the factory that shouldn't have been shipped. THAT may be true in your case.

Check your cylinder throats. They should be slightly larger than groove diameter for best results.

Dale53

[Dale53]

Another thing:

Years ago, several of us good buddies were shooting PPC with the local constabulary. They had some really good shots on the department (National PPC Champs) so we got good instruction.

We improved, pretty much as a group. Then after a few months, one of the guys hit a plateau and just didn't improve. We moved ahead of him a good bit. He was gettng very frustrated. For some reason, I did not believe it was him. I thought he had some sort of equipment problems. I was interested in the "Whys" and "Wherefores" so I talked him into letting me put his "K-38" on the Ransom Rest.
That revolver wouldn't shoot for beans using his ammo (cast bullets loaded by him). I then shot it with my ammo. The gun routinely shot 3/4" groups at 25 yards. He was using a load similar to mine and they looked good. I asked him to bring a box of his bullets for me to see. Without a doubt, that was the sorriest bunch of bullets that I have ever seen. He had bought a used H&G four cavity bullet mould for their wadcutter (famous design) and someone had absolutely beat that mould to death with a hammer. It was ruined beyond salvage. The bullet haves did not index and sizing the bullets just added to the bullet damage.

I gave him a hundred bullets to try. He loaded them up and overnight was shooting with the big boys. Amazing transformation. One of the really good deeds that I have done in my life (we will NOT discuss the other kind of deeds that I have done...)

Dale53

[44man]

Since I posted, we have had some 3" groups with the Freedom at 50 yd's. He is going to give me the gun for a while so I can take measurements. I have re-worked a Lee bevel base to remove the bevel to test in his gun. I am going to work loads for him. I now have a choice to make these boolits from .3575 to .362.
He also has the Freedom .475 and I have other friends with Freedom .454's. They have been working loads and changing bullets, boolits for years and I outshoot all of them with my BFR's and Ruger's. I love the workmanship and beauty of the Freedom's but have never been impressed with the way they shoot or the ease of loading for them with those short cylinders. Some of their twist rates are just wrong too.
On another site I had a guy say he could shoot 1" groups at 100 yd's on demand with his Freedom. How I would love to have him come over and show me!

[lovedogs]

cbrick has a good point, too. If we can rule out equipment problems sometimes we are doing some little thing like he mentioned that really fouls things up. We can get too familiar with things sometimes and get lax. I remember once I was re-adjusting the sights on a real accurate custom rifle. It commonly shot in about a third of MOA and, suddenly, it was shooting all over the place. After doing a "shooting procedure check" I found I was letting the rear sling swivel stud touch the bag. I repositioned things properly and the gun drove them into nice little groups again. It's funny how sometimes it's just some little thing that fouls us up.

[cbrick]

He also has the Freedom .475 and I have other friends with Freedom .454's. They have been working loads and changing bullets, boolits for years and I outshoot all of them with my BFR's and Ruger's. I love the workmanship and beauty of the Freedom's but have never been impressed with the way they shoot or the ease of loading for them with those short cylinders. Some of their twist rates are just wrong too.
On another site I had a guy say he could shoot 1" groups at 100 yd's on demand with his Freedom. How I would love to have him come over and show me!

I'd love to show you 44man. I haven't yet worked with a Freedom Arms revolver that didn't shoot exceptionally well and that's several of them.

Here is a five shot group from an FA 41 Mag at 150 meters. The high shot was a called flier. This is with a 12x Burris from the bench. Cast bullets of coarse.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1478-8.jpg

Here is 5 shots at 150 meters from my FA 357, 190 gr cast bullets @ 1550 fps, scoped from the bench.

http://www.lasc.us/Feb2006.jpg

Twist rate wrong ??? In most cases FA's twist rate is simply a little faster to accommodate heavier (longer) bullets. What a shame FA doesn't know what twist to use, these two examples would shoot better :-D.

Rick

[lovedogs]

Dang, cbrick! I sure don't want you shootin' at me. You're as good as my lady friend. Her motto is "You can run, but you can't hide!" That's fine shootin'!

[cbrick]

I love the workmanship and beauty of the Freedom's but have never been impressed with the way they shoot or the ease of loading for them with those short cylinders.

I'm a bit confused, short cylinders ?? The 357, 41, 44 and 454 FA's I have worked with all had the same cylinder length and that is the length for the 454 Casull or 1.785". What FA are you shooting with a shorter cylinder and what is the cylinder length of your Ruger's in these calibers ??

Rick

[wire nut]

I haven't ruled shooter error as being part of the problem but when I can shoot better groups with a 2 inch taraus then I can with the blackhawk I have trouble believing that the gun is not part of the problem.Thanks for the tips nad if it warms up this week end I will try try again. Wire Nut

[Nueces]

cbrick,

Methinks you refer to the FA-83's, the original biggies. The FA-97s have cylinders only 1.63" long, not even long enough for a Keith boolit in a 357 case, much less a heavy 45 Colt boolit.

Mark

[cbrick]

Nueces,

hhmmm . . . . Now that you mention it, methinks your right [smilie=1:.

Never have played with the 97 and didn't even think about it.

Rick

[44man]

The one that drives us nuts is the Freedom .475 with a cylinder so short anything over 400 gr's won't fit unless seated deep or the brass shortened and even some of my 400's won't fit. One that just makes it is the Lee but it better be seated to the top of the crimp groove. If a boolit slips a little from recoil it will tie up the gun.
It also has a 1 in 18 twist and shoots bad with heavy boolits. The only one we found to shoot decent is the 350 gr.
Go to a heavier boolit and you have nothing but a .480 because they have to be crimped out on the ogive. Even jacketed bullets have the crimp groove real high to fit and have to be seated deep.
Freedom is just like every other gun, some are exceptional but we have not had any here yet. Not all suffer from a short cylinder but they change calibers and seem to use the same frame and cylinder length.
The .454 suffers from something too and of the five we have fooled with none will do what Cbricks .41 does. All told we have maybe 400 to 500 different loads, powders, primers, bullets and boolits of all types, through these guns and all shoot the same. All the guns have high quality, expensive scopes on them.
I remember the Dan Wesson guns that were winning every IHMSA shoot so I bought several and never had such junk in my life. By far the most accurate revolver I ever had was the Ruger .357 max. Like a dummy, I sold it. I have had Ruger's and S&W guns that wouldn't shoot but had others that were tack drivers.
Cbrick, you have a shooter, no doubt in my mind and if you ever sell it I will call you names.
I never say or have said I don't like them and would love to have a bunch, but only in regular calibers like the .44, .41 or .22. When it comes to the really big bores, there is something lacking.
That is what is messing with our minds, that .357 should shoot so he is bringing it up next week so I can make it shoot.
I think my problem all along is that when I think of a Freedom, I think big, .454 and up and have been disappointed in them. I never wanted to spend those big bucks for a regular .44 or so. No one I know here has a .44, .41 or .22 so I can't comment on them.
Then there is that .357 that makes us stand at the bench and scream!

[44man]

Cbrick, I guess I was sorta right. The smaller calibers need heavier boolits but the larger calibers need lighter boolits which is backwards in the large calibers for hunting.
Looks like I have to find a heavy mold for the .357 to make it shoot.
What weight boolit do you use in the .41?

[cbrick]

Dan Wesson's were winning everything in IHMSA and NRA long range silhouette until FA came along. It was rare to find a Ruger accurate enough and the Smith's while generally more accurate would not take the heavy loads and "shoot loose" in a year or less. Rarely see a Dan Wesson anymore and FA is winning everything.

There was a secret to the DW's shooting so well, forget that removable barrel nonesense. Crank it down tight and leave it. The tension from the muzzle end is part of what made them so accurate but every time you took the barrel off for cleaning or whatever it went back on in a different position and with different tension and didn't shoot the same.

The model 83 is the only FA I've ever worked with and I've had several plus worked up loads for others FA's, never found one that didn't shoot quite well. I have worked up long range loads in 357, 41, 44 & 454 but 83's all. While I have never worked with a 97 neither have I heard of anyone having so much trouble getting them to shoot. Interesting.

Rick

[cbrick]

44man, The 41 I did the load work up for was a friends FA. He gave it to me and told me to make it shoot like mine. I managed to keep it for 6 months and play with it :-D before he wanted it back for a championship match :(.

The bullet I tested most with it was an NEI 245 gr SWC. The guy that owned it doesn't cast (I'll never understand that) so the group in the picture was with LeadHead's 245 TCGC. That bullet shot so well because about 85 or 90% of the bulet length is bearing surface. No idea what lube he uses, I use LBT Blue.

Also in the 41, I used 414 Super Mag brass shortened to fit the FA cylinder exactly to the throat. The groups were fired with virgin brass, NOT sized, primer pockets uniformed with the Sinclair tool and flash holes uniformed, solid Redding profile crimp.

Groups open up more with each successive crimping of the case mouth and groups also depend on uniform bullet BHN. Variation in the hardness of the bullet opens up groups. I wrote about this here:

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

This is sorta off topic, but what is so strange to me is how every time you see an article written on bullet metals, all that is mentioned is about pressure. You never hear much about how bullet design, weight, and strike velocity at the point of the rifling that determines how hard your bullet needs to be or possibly how soft it can be. This makes you a hostage to bullet hardness and certain designs.

If you are increasing velocity on your bullet and you have a long distance to the rifling, your velocity is going to be higher when you strike. In addition, if you have a long bearing area, obturation has formed a grip on the smooth portion of the cone and the base has pressure expanding out that all creates friction as it must size back down which resists the riflings efforts to turn it over. When it does, it erodes the cone in an unnatural direction to line of bullet travel, thus some say too soft of bullets wears the forcing cone. More often than not, it is this resistance the causes striping earlier than it otherwise would occur. A harder bullet not only helps rotation, but minimizes resistance from deformation.

So a wider front band and shorter trail bearing length maximize strength for rotation and minimise friction to resist it. A bullet so designed, like a Keith, can be shot softer than most. Especially in lighter for caliber weights. And for heavy weights, you may need the hardness and more or better lube, not to handle the rotational forces upon impact, but to minimize friction in the cone from that part of the bullet that is not supported by groove diameter and thus not contributing to the drive process.

When a guy goes to an olgival design, he is often unaware that his rifling will make contact down on the olgive thus creating a much wider band than he visualized, so here he has more strength to fight non-rotational friction. A wider nose means less olgive and thus a wider drive band. So weaker designs, may require harder metal to do the same thing as well as heavier bullets. If you don't know to adjust, you go hard and wide on the nose and believe that is the holly grail. How hard and how wide is dependent on your technique and guns condition.

So a person that is unable to be flexible at understanding what needs to change, tends to believe that Keith types do better in lighter weights and olgivals for the heavy stuff. If you don't learn, you become a hostage to hardness and one design.

Now how does all this play into short cylinders and line bore chambered guns. Well, you have less velocity at strike of rifling, no real forcing cone to allow bullet deformation, so you don't need as hard of bullet to do the same thing. Maybe not as big either. If you are inflexible to adjust, you tend to be too hard and it always seems like you need a heavier bullet because (if the top end of the cartridge allows you) you will need more pressure from the slower powders you "learned" were required to achieve the same balance (allow more time and less pressure to fix the problem of deformation) to produce accuracy in other guns. Technique. So you get options to either go to slightly faster powders, or softer bullets, or heavier bullets, less lube, less quality lube, etc.

So a FA can be an entirely new experience to someone that has spent years perfecting accuracy in the same calibers in other guns with forcing cones and such. The problem? A FA looks .... just .... EXACTLY like what they were using before!

It is a whole new cast world, you must be able to think about what conditions you are forced to utilize from the gun, those conditions that you as a reloader are about to create, and be flexible enough to adapt. I believe it is easier to go from the imperfect world (for lack of a better term) of other handguns to line bored FA types, which are more .... rifle like, than to go the other way.

This is a very basic and generalized summary on bullet weight and design that won't pertain to every gun or situation. It can't. You have to know what you are creating to take the proper steps to cure any problems. Like using slower powders for higher velocities. This is just to demonstrate that you may need to expand your repertoire and open your mind to .... alternative possibilities.

[Char-Gar]

My vote goes for shooter error. Try resting for forarms on the bags and holding the pistol in your hands...I would bet the stringing would go away.

[44man]

Well said Bass, very true.
My big problem working a load for a Freedom is that I don't own one and friends bring components or I go to their house and still use what they have but mostly, they load their own. This makes it very hard because I can't use what they need and they can't use what I have. I depend on them to do the research and buy what they need and is a big reason I can't help them much because I am just too busy to do their work.
The most experience I have had with the Freedoms is with the .475 my friend brings out, I don't like it, will never buy one in that caliber. It just does not fit the gun and the use it was designed for.
I want all the rest though but would have to sell all of my old silhouette single shots just to buy ONE.
The .454's are mostly all loaded by their owners with their stuff except for some I loaded with 335 gr LBT boolits I had left and the Lee 300 gr. They brought the powder, etc. None would group to what I would like them to and the primary reason is I don't own them and will not buy anything for them that would be of no use in my guns. The accuracy of the few factory loads they brought out did not impress me at all.
The guns are very picky and just do not like normal for caliber components that I have here. They are specialty guns and need special treatment.
Cbrick has the experience with them and might be my salvation to help my friends and just in case I manage to afford one for myself. I have been out of IHMSA so long I lost all contact so we have been running alone with these guns. I have never been left with one and any money to do the work. They bring them out to shoot and test and take them back home again.
This is about to change with the .357 and I will talk John into getting a mold that works. Unlike the other guys, John is willing to spend the money. I can make my guns shoot because they are in my hands daily and I will devote weeks to make molds or anything else needed. I can't do that for someone else!
Cbrick, what mold does he need for the .357? Can you give me all the load info for it? I could also use load info for the .454 if anyone has what shoots although it is not as important to me.
And remember, I have never said that I don't like the Freedoms (Except the .475.) In fact I love the things, hate to see them leave and I want a bunch of them, always have and always will. I really want the .22 bad! What a squirrel gun that would make!

[cbrick]

Bass Ackward,

I don't disagree with anything in your post. There is a great deal more involved than simple alloy BHN. My article on heat treating is intended as a "why the alloy hardens with heat reating", "how to go about achieving a specified BHN" and stress the point that too hard is not a good thing and exercise constraint when heat treating.

If you would like to author an article referencing the points in your post I would certainly consider it for publishing on lasc.us, the lasc.us web site currently gets over 1.3 million page views per year so your work would get good exposure.

Interested?

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

If you would like to author an article referencing the points in your post I would certainly consider it for publishing on lasc.us, the lasc.us web site currently gets over 1.3 million page views per year so your work would get good exposure.

Interested?

Rick


Rick,

My post was not a criticism of your article, as it was to stimulate thought. This is often an area where I get a lot of questions. Responses from the experienced guys at times, tend to take for granted the knowledge base of others. Sometimes broadening the scope of a discussion can turn a light on for someone else that needs it to tie it all together. I saw an opportunity and I took it.

I couldn't author an article because I don't have all the answers. And an article can't tie it all together, it takes a book after all individual techniques have been described previously. I am hoping Glen's book accomplishes this.

I will keep it in mind as I go along if I think I can ever do it justice.

[Bass Ackward]

If you would like to author an article referencing the points in your post I would certainly consider it for publishing on lasc.us, the lasc.us web site currently gets over 1.3 million page views per year so your work would get good exposure.

Interested?

Rick


Rick,

My post was not a criticism of your article, as it was to stimulate thought.

I couldn't author an article because I don't have all the answers. Although I will keep it in mind as I go along if I think I can ever do it justice.

Responses from the experienced guys at times, tend to take for granted the knowledge base of others. Sometimes broadening the scope of a discussion can turn a light on for someone else that needs it to tie it all together.

[cbrick]

Rick,

My post was not a criticism of your article, as it was to stimulate thought. I will keep it in mind as I go along if I think I can ever do it justice.

I didn't take it as criticism. You brought up some good points and is why I asked if you would like to do an article on it. :-D

I too am eagerly awaiting Glen's book, possibly this year.

Rick

[cbrick]

Cbrick, what mold does he need for the .357? Can you give me all the load info for it? I could also use load info for the .454 if anyone has what shoots although it is not as important to me.

I really want the .22 bad! What a squirrel gun that would make!

Two RCBS moulds that have worked well for me is the 35 cal 200 gr FPGC rifle bullet (212 gr, my alloy) but the best groups and higher velocity is from the RCBS 180 gr GC silhouette bullet, in my alloy its 190 gr.

I have a bullet design of my own planned that I will have Mountain Molds make now that he back in operation.

All groups like the one in the picture and all match brass for the revolver are fired with virgin brass. Groups will get larger with each successive crimping of the case mouth (work hardening). Virgin brass is NOT SIZED. It is trimmed to +- .0005" and not chamfered or deburred, primer pockets are uniformed with the Sinclair primer pocket tool and cut as deep as the tool allows so the primer pockets are flat and uniform in depth. Flash holes are uniformed and a slight bell on the case mouth. Bullets are seated with the Redding Competition Seating Die and seated out as far as possible and still keep the crimp in the crimp groove. It is important to have every bit of the front driving band inside the throat and that bullet diameter is a snug fit in the throats. Solid Redding Profile crimp.

I extensively tested H-108, H-110 and AA #9. They all gave similair groups with the velocity edge going to H-110 and H-108 with the lowest velocity.

I tested most of the primers and its not uncommon to get variation with different primers but CCI 550 made a huge improvement in both groups and velocity.

I recently tested SAECO # 399 (180 gr TCGC) with the same H-110 load I use with the RCBS 180 gr. This was a real eye opener. This bullet stacks five shots one on top of each other at 100 meters and I can't even hit the 150 meter target with it. Past 100 meters it goes to sh*t. This is a two diameter bullet, the front driving band is .004" smaller than sized bullet diameter and if nothing else proved my theory on making the bullet fit the throats because this bullet doesn't. It also leads the cylinder fairly badly, not the bore, just the cylinder. I figure the middle driving band hits the edge of the throat and shaves lead. This bullet could make an outstanding single shot or rifle bullet but it is not a revolver bullet.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[44man]

Yes, it will help a great deal. Thank you very much.