Bye Bye Bevel Base

[Ben]

I'm no fan of bevel base bullets. I've always believed that the bevel based design doesn't offer the gas seal that a conventional plain based bullet does. With that said, I do like the Lee 158 gr. RF, 38/357 mold design. It is a design with the right nose shape and meplat size, an adequate lube ring, and a nice crimp groove. Problem is , right now, Lee isn't offering the mold as a plain based design.

So , I decided to take matters into my own hands and see if I could get " the best of both worlds ". A design that I like without the bevel base.

I removed the bevel base with a 23/64 " drill bit on my drill press and ended up with what I think is a very versatile, accurate cast bullet design for the 38 Spec. or 357 Mag revolvers.

I like it. My Marlin 1894 , 38 Spec. CBC loves this bullet. My Colt Officer's Model Match shoots this bullet well also.

These Lee 158 RF's below have been sized to .358" , the lube ring filled with my own lube and then tumbled in LLA.

Ben

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Lee%20158%20RF%20Plain%20base/0057865.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Lee%20158%20RF%20Plain%20base/007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Lee%20158%20RF%20Plain%20base/006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Lee%20158%20RF%20Plain%20base/001.jpg

[376Steyr]

I have a reamer sitting in a box waiting for me to do the same thing to a couple of Lee moulds. My gripe about the bevel base is it messes up my QC inspection of freshly cast bullets, as I have trouble seeing the difference between a good bevel and an improperly filled out one. I too wish Lee would offer the six cavity without the bevel.

[Ben]

376Steyr

That's 2 of us wishing for the same thing !
I didn't mention it but my work was done on a 2 cav. mold
and I only removed the bevel base on 1 of the 2 cavities.

The bases on mine now are nice and clean, sharp and square.

Of course when running your bullets through your
lube - sizer, you don't have the lube leaking around the plain
based design like you do the bevel base either.

If Lee would make the 158 RF in a plain based 6 cav. mold, I'd jump on it .

Thanks,
Ben

[Bret4207]

You guys (guys-ez?)theory in BB matches up with mine. It' harder than heck to tell if theres a ripple in the BB area and I think that's part of the reason I never got as good grouping with BB as with FB or GC.

Nice job Ben, and as usual your photography is superb.

BTW= I have a 35-180GC GB 6 banger that is an over grown version of that design. Absolutely fantastic in the 35 Rem and Whelen!

[dragonrider]

Finer than frog hair Ben,

[GP100man]

Ben

I got a 6 banger just waitin for ya ????

As I read this thread I relized I too have trouble seeing a good base, beveled that is .

[leadman]

I had an early Lee 2 cavity for this boolit that had a flat base. I then bought the 6 cavity and it had the small bevel base. The bevel base shot better than the flat base!
Don't know why, but that is what happened. Sold the 2 cavity.

[kmag]

I have always liked flat base boolits best. Never saw a bench rest shooter win a match with bevel base bullets, in fact never saw a bench rest shooter using bevel base bullets. But I have two 10 cavity H & G molds both are for 148 gr. wad cutters. One is a 50 flat base the other is a 50 bb. The 50 bb groups tighter than the flat base. This was not a one time occurrence by one person using one gun, but by me and 5 friends that I loaded for. We shot these boolits for 5 or 6 years in 4 to 6 combat matches a month back in the 70's. I don't know why they shot better same brass same powder charge and primer. That is the only bevel base boolit that I have found that I like.

[JRR]

Good job eliminating the bevel. There is another solution to this problem that some may try.

A Hornady gas check can be attached to the base. If you put a gas check onto the bevel and push the boolit through a Lee sizer, the base will be swagged into a shoulder shape with the check firmly attached.

This doesn't work very well with the larger calipers because the percent of bevel to diameter is less.

I have done this many times.

Jeff

[Wally]

Good job eliminating the bevel. There is another solution to this problem that some may try.

A Hornady gas check can be attached to the base. If you put a gas check onto the bevel and push the boolit through a Lee sizer, the base will be swagged into a shoulder shape with the check firmly attached.

This doesn't work very well with the larger calipers because the percent of bevel to diameter is less.

I have done this many times.

Jeff

Glad you mentioned that--I do the same using Freechex Aluminum home made Gas Checks...works very nicely. Ditto with the .38 Cal Lee 158 SWC-TL. You can also use it with the .38 Lee 148 WC-TL--if you want to load them in the .357 Magnum . Also works with the Lee .41 Cal 210 SWC-TL & the Lee .44 Cal 240 SWC-TL using .44 Cal gas checks.

I have found that the .38 Cal Lee 158 RNF w/ a GC is very accurate in my Marlin 1894C.

[Old Caster]

I have Ransom rested Saeco 068(bevel) and 069 (flat) base bullets several times to see if there is a difference. I did it 10 shot one time, then 20 shot and then 25 shot groups. While the flat won each time, the groups were so close that I wouldn't be so bold as to declare it the winner. I am now torn between not wanting to take a chance to it is so much easier to load a bevel that I vasilate back and forth and don't have a favorite. It depends on which day you ask me. Obviously other bullets may differ but I think which bullet it is, is way more important than whether it is bevel or flat which is why a bullet from a cheap mold might shoot better than an expensive one.

[legi0n]

I also removed the bevel from a 6 cav 358-158-RF mold using a cordless drill and lots of due diligence.
The result is quite appealing [smilie=l:

the wrinkly looking patterns on the boolits are reflections of stuff in the mirror finish the sizer put on the lead.

http://members.shaw.ca/le_r0umain/Lee_358_158_RF_no_bevel.jpg

[Bret4207]

I had an early Lee 2 cavity for this boolit that had a flat base. I then bought the 6 cavity and it had the small bevel base. The bevel base shot better than the flat base!
Don't know why, but that is what happened. Sold the 2 cavity.

Ya gotta wonder, was it the base or was there some dimensional difference that made it shoot better? Things like that keep me awake some nights.[smilie=6:

[jlchucker]

When you see the Lee 158 gr RNFP depicted in certain catalogs (Midway comes quickest to mind) it's shown as a plain-base boolit. I recently bought one of these to make up some boolits for my Rossi carbine. A couple of months ago I cast up some Lyman 358156's, and then some of the Lee's. I quickly found out that I had a bevel-base version of the Lee mold. Long story short, they shoot OK at 50 yards, but I'd really prefer a plain-base like they advertise. Reading this thread makes me want to alter my Lee mold. I wish Lee would have their vendors advertise what they are currently marketing, or actually make what their suppliers are showing.

[MikeS]

I have Ransom rested Saeco 068(bevel) and 069 (flat) base bullets several times to see if there is a difference. ...

Not quite on topic, but I have a question for you. I too have both SAECO #68 & 69 boolit moulds. My #69 was made by Redding, my #68 is older, pre Redding. The 68 has a rounded grease groove, and the 69 has a flat bottomed grease groove that seems very shallow. The 68 I have also has a sharp edge where the tip of the boolit goes to the tapered body, and the 69 it's rounded off much like I've seen other 68's (H&G, Mihec, Lee, etc.) Are your moulds both identical other than the base, or are there other differences as well?

Below is a picture of the two SAECO boolits, along with the Lee #68. The Lee is the left most boolit, the SAECO 68 is in the center, and the 69 is on the right.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_177914e52717413d0d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1916)

[Old Caster]

Mike, In order to answer your question correctly, I attempted to measure the depth of the lube groove but that was next to impossible so I put an 068 into the 069 cavity, and they looked identical except for the base. The bevel is pretty mild on the 068. I have a Lee 6 cavity group buy copy of the 069 Saeco and the big difference is the point of the Lee is smaller and the groove is a curve whereas both Saeco's are almost square with slightly angled edges. The Saeco's would probably hold about twice the lube though I doubt that it matters. The lube groove is in the same place on the Saeco and Lee. I have tested the Lee in the RR and the Saeco's were better but I would like to do it again with more shots to be sure becaue the difference was small, and of course different pistols might prefer the opposite.

[Ben]

jlchucker:

I wish Lee would have their vendors advertise what they are currently marketing, or actually make what their suppliers are showing.
_______________________________________________

A phone call to Lee to tell them that very thing just may be in order..............

Lee Precision (262) 673-3075

[Hurricane]

Is there any real difference between the Lee, Lyman, or RCBS versions of this 358 RF boolit? The Lyman and RCBS boolit molds are plain base. Is price and mold material the only differences?

[Old Caster]

I think it would be said price, material and quality. In some cases the quality is not necessary so the cheaper is on order. If you are competing and want to have a chance to win, then cheaper is not such a good idea.

[jlchucker]

jlchucker:

I wish Lee would have their vendors advertise what they are currently marketing, or actually make what their suppliers are showing.
_______________________________________________

A phone call to Lee to tell them that very thing just may be in order..............

Lee Precision (262) 673-3075

I did call them on the day of that first casting session. They referred me to their own on-line ad, which clearly depicts a bevel base on their current boolit. Trouble is, the vendors may not have updated their own ads. After reading the postings on this thread, I have to wonder why Lee changed their design to the bevel base. It would appear that most prefer a flat base. While the bevelled ones worked OK for plinking once I got them cast, I will be altering that mold before my next casting session. Thanks for the phone number, though.

[MikeS]

I know with rifle bullets (jacketed) that boat-tailed bullets supposedly shoot better than a flat based bullet, I wonder if the bevel based boolits have any aerodynamic advantage similar to a boat-tailed bullet?

[Cherokee]

My 358-158 RNFP Lee bullets are cast from WW+Tin and weigh 168 gr. Although BB when cast, by the time I run them thru my Star sizer nose down, they are plain base - the bevel is gone. They are very accurate in my 357 Mag's.

[whitewolf68]

I like what you've done there Ben. I liked it so much that I went and tried it my self without great success. Let's just say I am glad I have a Lyman 358665 on order. Guess tool and die is not my bag. LOL

[mroliver77]

I like what you've done there Ben. I liked it so much that I went and tried it my self without great success. Let's just say I am glad I have a Lyman 358665 on order. Guess tool and die is not my bag. LOL

Uh Oh!!!! How bad AJ? Mebbe it is something for me to practice with my lathe?
J

[softpoint]

I know with rifle bullets (jacketed) that boat-tailed bullets supposedly shoot better than a flat based bullet, I wonder if the bevel based boolits have any aerodynamic advantage similar to a boat-tailed bullet?
Actually the boattail bullets have better long range flight characteristics, but that appears to be the only advantage (long range matches) while flatbase bullets often give the best accuracy in benchrest rifles.
I have removed the bevel base in a Lee 6 cavity 200gr. .45 acp mold with an exacto knife, and the results were good. just go slowly if you do this, and even if you scrape out a tiny bit too much, it won't matter, as the sizer will fix it. I wasn't concerned so much about accuracy difference here, but the messy bullet sizing in the rcbs sizer. Had this been a tumble lube boolit, I wouldn't have cut the bevel out. I also have the 158 gr. Lee mold ,and haven't found the small bevel on that mold to be as much trouble. :coffee:

[whitewolf68]

Me thinks the front mold is toasted. I gave up after that. I was gonna order just the molds from Lee Precision and salvage the handles. If you want the blocks I'm ok with that.


Uh Oh!!!! How bad AJ? Mebbe it is something for me to practice with my lathe?
J

[crabo]

I think we need a NOE 6 cavity group buy for this mold in a flat base. I'm in, anyone else? I really like 6 cavity aluminum molds for getting the lead out.

[whitewolf68]

I'm up for one Crabo. Sounds good to me and it would solve a lot of problems people have with the dreaded BB. :D


I think we need a NOE 6 cavity group buy for this mold in a flat base. I'm in, anyone else? I really like 6 cavity aluminum molds for getting the lead out.

[crabo]

I am kinda surprised there is not more any interest in a group buy of this mold. Maybe we need to put the idea forth in the group buy forum.

[whitewolf68]

I agree with you, I'll follow your lead Crabo. I'm a newbie here...


I am kinda surprised there is not more any interest in a group buy of this mold. Maybe we need to put the idea forth in the group buy forum.

[BAGTIC]

Can't think of any logical reason a flat based bullet would seal tighter than a bevel bases one. A bevel base will load easier and not having a sharp acute angle at the junction of the base a bullet side there should be less risk of that sharp 'corner' being deformed during the reloading process.

Never see a target shooter using bevel based bullets? What do you think boat-tails are.

I think it is as much tradition and old shooters' tales as science.

[Echo]

Can't think of any logical reason a flat based bullet would seal tighter than a bevel bases one. A bevel base will load easier and not having a sharp acute angle at the junction of the base a bullet side there should be less risk of that sharp 'corner' being deformed during the reloading process.

Never see a target shooter using bevel based bullets? What do you think boat-tails are.

I think it is as much tradition and old shooters' tales as science.

Boat-tail rifle bullets are machine made - Target versions are made with extremely accurate dies and process that produce uniform products. Cast boolits, on the other hand are made with less-precise equipment, less-precise alloy, and less-precise operator input. BB cast boolits have the possibility of the BB NOT being uniform in the complete circumference, and if present, would lead to inaccuracy.

[crabo]

I bought a Lee 6 banger 158 RF just so I could try to take the bevel out.

I found out that a "T" sized drill bit is .358 and I bought one today for $5.50. I ground a flat on the tip so I wouldn't nick the lube grooves. I just ran the drill bit by hand, with it held in a pair of vice grips because my tap handle would not hold it.

It cleaned up fairly well, but I am going to spend a little more time on it. I am thinking I will chuck it up in the drill press and rotate it by hand. At that point I may lap it a little. The boolits dropped fairly well, even though I did not polish it or try to get a good finish on the new cavities.

[tomme boy]

Flat based bullets are more accurate than a BT or BB bullet because the gas escapes all at once. If the crown is messed up at all, The gas is not going to be even all the way around the bullet. So the heal or BB or BT is still in the bore as the gas is escaping. This can apply forse to the side on the bullet causing an imbalance. The FB bullet is a short range bullet. It does not like to come down threw the transsonic range. They can become really unstable. The BT bullet is a little more forgiving on this.

[Char-Gar]

I did call them on the day of that first casting session. They referred me to their own on-line ad, which clearly depicts a bevel base on their current boolit. Trouble is, the vendors may not have updated their own ads. After reading the postings on this thread, I have to wonder why Lee changed their design to the bevel base. It would appear that most prefer a flat base. While the bevelled ones worked OK for plinking once I got them cast, I will be altering that mold before my next casting session. Thanks for the phone number, though.

I avoid bevel base bullet like the plague so I don't have a mold that needs to be modified. But, if I did, I would.

Folks who make things make them to sell. If the distributors and customers want BB bullet molds that is what Lee will make. It doesn't matter if BB molds suck.

Most folks who shoot cast bullets buy those worthless commercial "hard cast" with bevel bases and crapola blue wax lube. They think those just must be good because that is what the commercials make and sell. So, when they decide to buy a mold, they just follow suit.

It is a case of ignorance driving the market. Happens all the time, in many areas.

[rsrocket1]

This is what I see from the Lee site:

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/358-158-RF.jpg
I've been using this picture to choose the profile of the boolit mold.
It sure looks like a clear view of a bevel base to me.
I guess its the vendor's fault.