.455 Webley from 45 Auto Rim

[Egostomus]

Greetings,

I am trying to load some rounds for my 1916 dated Mk VI revolver. The cylinder has been shaved but I have no intention of shooting 45 ACP in this old girl. I bought some 45 Auto Rim brass and purchased the RCBS mold that casts a 265 grain hollow base boolit that is very close to the original boolit design for this cartridge.

My questions are as follows:

1. Is it necessary to trim the 45 Auto Rim brass down to 455 Webley length or can I simply load the boolits in the existing brass without modification?

2. Powder charge? I can't really find much on 455 Webley loads in 45 Auto Rim cases with a 265 grain hollow base boolit.

If anyone can assist me in this endeavor, I'd very much appreciate it.


Vis Superavi Ignarum!

[Cottage Hill Bill]

You can use the brass as is. 5.0 grains of unique with the 265 grain bullet will just about duplicate the original Webley load.

[klcarroll]

Bill has got it exactly right!

5.0 Unique under a 255 - 265 grain boolit has been my "go-to" load for over thirty years now!

If you want a more authentic LOOKING round, you could shorten the AR case; .....But I would advise against it. It is my belief that the larger AR case provides somewhat lower initial pressures than the factory case would with a similar load.

…..And if you ever get tired of the “Old Girl”, ….just give me a call! (Sorry for the self-serving comment: …..Webleys are a sickness with me!)


Kent

[Egostomus]

Thanks, gentlemen! Your information will now allow me to finally shoot my Webley. I haven't got the Webley sickness just yet, but I';m working on it.

Vis Superavi Ignarum!

[Gellot Wilde]

If you use .45Auto Rim in a non-modded .455 do you still have to reduce the rim/head thickness?


Ok, I did some reading...and now have the answer to my own question.

[klcarroll]

The .45 Auto Rim case was designed to duplicate the rim thickness created by a .45 ACP case held in a "Moon Clip"; .....And it will chamber and headspace correctly in any revolver that has been set up for use with the .45/Moon Clip combination. (Like the Webleys that have had their cylinders lathe-turned to that dimension.)

If your Webley has not been so modified, the thick rim of the Auto Rim case will not allow the action to close.

In my opinion, "back-cutting" the rim of the AR case is far too much "fiddley/irritating" lathe work: .....A better option would be to shorten .45 Long Colt cases, or "bite the bullet" (Har! Har!) and buy some of the currently available .455 brass from Hornady.

Under NO circumstances allow yourself to be tempted into "cutting" a Webley that has survived 100 years in an un-modified state!

Kent

[Gellot Wilde]

Thanks Kent

I've got some of the Hornady Mk.II's which are IMHO the best out there...just can't get them here at the moment due to current US restrictions of brass exports.

Compared to what Bertram charge the Hornady brass is cheap...Bertram must make their cases out of a gold alloy or similar for the price they want for them.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel though as I heard from one supplier only this week that they are applying for a licence to start exporting again.

I've kinda been toying with the idea of buying a lathe, but it seems an expensive option plus as you say, it's a fiddly operation back-cutting the rims on .45Colt or .45S&W both of which are easy to get hold of over here.

[klcarroll]

@ Gellot Wilde

How common are Webleys over there these days?

........I know that importation of a complete weapon into the U.S. is a practical impossibility; ....But I am interested in "Junk Guns" from which screws, springs and internal parts can be harvested. (Getting springs and screws into the country is a whole lot easier than importing a receiver!!)

Kent

[Gellot Wilde]

Not that common believe it or not, most "junkers" end up deactivated and sell for silly money.

Finding spares is a real test which must sound crazy considering just how many of the things (Wobley's) must have been made.

They couldn't give them away at one time of the day...makes you wonder where they all went.

This guy sometimes has spares, might be of intrest just to browse his list:-

http://www.amsmilitaria.com/

He's a ex-pat brit, has a pretty intresting inventory...but does tend to list things he no longer has in stock.

[Grapeshot]

Greetings,

I am trying to load some rounds for my 1916 dated Mk VI revolver. The cylinder has been shaved but I have no intention of shooting 45 ACP in this old girl. I bought some 45 Auto Rim brass and purchased the RCBS mold that casts a 265 grain hollow base boolit that is very close to the original boolit design for this cartridge.

My questions are as follows:

1. Is it necessary to trim the 45 Auto Rim brass down to 455 Webley length or can I simply load the boolits in the existing brass without modification?
Yes! The thick rim on the .45 AR MUST be thinned from the front or you will not be able to close the action on an unmodified Mk VI. The ones that were turned to accept .45 ACP use with half or full moon clips can use unmodified .45 AR Brass.

2. Powder charge? I can't really find much on 455 Webley loads in 45 Auto Rim cases with a 265 grain hollow base boolit.
Check with Wolf Publishing for Ken Waters' book on "Pet Loads. He did an article on a .455 Colt New Service using .45 AR brss with the rim thinned from the front to .455 Webly Specs.

If anyone can assist me in this endeavor, I'd very much appreciate it.


Vis Superavi Ignarum!

I Hope this helps.

[Gellot Wilde]

Is there any advantage to using .45 Auto Rim to say .45Colt or .45 S&W as the case to form .455?

[bydand]

Since .455 brass is available here, why bother?

[Gellot Wilde]

I'm talking from a non-USA perspective.

.455 brass is like rocking horse s**t in Europe since the USA ban on brass exports.

I'm totaly with you on buying it though and would if I were on the other side of the pond.

[klcarroll]

Is there any advantage to using .45 Auto Rim to say .45Colt or .45 S&W as the case to form .455?

I can think of two possible justifications:

First, the .455 Webley round has a rim that measures .035". The .45 Long Colt's rim measures .055”, and the .45 Auto Rim sports a rim that is a full .085” wide. Speaking from the standpoint of a lathe operator, the "cut" would be physically easier.

The logical tool to use for this cut would be a cut-off or grooving tool; ….plunging in from 90 degrees. My experience has been that wider "face cuts" of this kind are less likely to wander or deflect; …and personally, I would rather be doing a .050" wide cut than one that was only .020" wide.

Secondly, once you have the rim cut to the correct thickness, the .45 Auto Rim can be used at its stock length, whereas the .45 Long Colt must be shortened in order to chamber in a Webley.

So the .45 Auto Rim requires only one operation to produce usable brass; ...And the .45 Long Colt requires two.

I can see no other advantage, as the head thickness in modern versions of both cases is the same.

Kent

[Gellot Wilde]

That does makes alot of sense, thanks for that comprehensive answer.

[Nueces]

Another point to add to the good poop from Kent. Much of my Auto Rim brass has quite a generous chamfer on the primer side of the rim. Thinning the rim from the front would have to be watched so that you don't end up with too thin an outer edge.

Mark

[The Virginian]

I can think of two possible justifications:

First, the .455 Webley round has a rim that measures .035". The .45 Long Colt's rim measures .055”, and the .45 Auto Rim sports a rim that is a full .085” wide. Speaking from the standpoint of a lathe operator, the "cut" would be physically easier.

The logical tool to use for this cut would be a cut-off or grooving tool; ….plunging in from 90 degrees. My experience has been that wider "face cuts" of this kind are less likely to wander or deflect; …and personally, I would rather be doing a .050" wide cut than one that was only .020" wide.

Secondly, once you have the rim cut to the correct thickness, the .45 Auto Rim can be used at its stock length, whereas the .45 Long Colt must be shortened in order to chamber in a Webley.

So the .45 Auto Rim requires only one operation to produce usable brass; ...And the .45 Long Colt requires two.

I can see no other advantage, as the head thickness in modern versions of both cases is the same.

Kent

I concur since basically you are making a .455 Mark I Webley/Eley case that will be easier to handload. I would however, fire once to fireform and then use .455 dies for the second loading on. .45 Auto-Rim has a larger diameter rim too that will be more reliable for extraction from the cylinder once fired.

[ddixie884]

I believe the AR brass will be thinner at the neck than a cut off .45Colt case, which might require neck reaming.