Had a thought, Blackhawk 454 casull???

[Big Ryan]

Simple ?...I have a ruger 45 colt bisley. Thinking about getting a second cylinder for it and reaming it to 454casull. Can the BH Bisley frames handle 454 pressures, or would I have to upgrade to the redhawk frame? Currently the strongest factory chambering in the Bisley BH I could find online is the 44 mag with a max sami cup of 36,000 where as the 454 casull has a max cup at 65,000. So I was wondering just how much pressure is the BH frame rated for? According to HP White laboratories the Ruger .45 Colt destroys itself at about 65,000 CUP. Any info would be much appreciated Cheers, BR

[Piedmont]

Blackhawk six shot in .45 will handle up to about 32,000 psi safely.

[GARCIA]

Destruction would normally be the cylinder.
IMHO you see the likes of Bowen,Linebaugh, Clements and all the other high end smith's using the blackhawk/bisley as a starting platform for the bigs guns.

Should be able to do it no problem with a custom cylinder.

There is a guy that swapped out a super redhawk 454 cylinder into a regular redhawk platform over on the Ruger forum.

It all deals with cylinder strength IMHO.

Tom

[subsonic]

You would not be able to do it with a six shot xylinder. The cylinder is too thin. 5 shot no problem.

[Potsy]

Again, no prob for a custom 5 shot cylinder. Before I laid out the cash I'd try going to 28-32,000CUP with my .45 Colt.
Oh the places you'll go. With a lot less recoil. Not much stuff in FL you won't shoot plumb through with it either.

[Big Ryan]

Ok, so everyone is concuring that the Bisley BH frame is more then strong enough, its the cylinder that is not, right? Who would any of you recommend to make such a custom 5 shot cylinder at a reasonable price? .....Posty, I shoot everything in FL with a 223, so I know the 45colt is more then sufficent. This is not a matter of the 45colt not doing the job, its a matter of having a kewl custom 454 bisley for target shooting and possibly IHMSA shoots, without dropping $2500 on a FA. Plus I really like the Bisley grip angle alot more then other pistols that shoot the 454, like the redhawk, the BFR, or taurus. :redneck:

[subsonic]

Look at a BFR. Probably cheaper than the cylinder.

[Ben]

Big Ryan:

I once read where Ruger took their Super Redhawk in 44 mag and converted it to 454 Casull for trials. On the 1st round fired, the 454 Casull round destroyed the gun. Back to the drawing board for Ruger with completely new metallurgy, etc.

Ruger sternly warns against any attempt to convert one of their 44 mag revolvers to 454 Casull.

My initial thoughts on all this is that if you'd like a nice 454 Casull, you ( for your own safety ) would be better off buying a factory pistol that has been built, tested, and has a nice " safety margin " for the Casull cartridge.

With these kinds of pressures in the 454 Casull ( 57K CIP ) ( as you can see in Ruger's early testing and catastrophic revolver failure ), you may only get one chance to " get it right."

I pulled this paragraph ( below ) from this link, you may want to look at it :

http://www.sixguns.com/range/454_super_redhawk.htm


Yes the Super Redhawk even though it is chambered in .454 Casull, and even though both Freedom Arms and Taurus use five-shot cylinders, will be a true sixgun with six cartridge holes in the unfluted cylinder. I know the question will be asked so we will handle it right now. NO! The .44 Super Redhawk should not be re-chambered to .454. When I called Ruger and asked them what changes were made to accommodate the newer, higher pressure cartridge, they informed me of two major changes. The steel used in the KSRH-7454 (Model number assigned to the Super Redhawk .454) is of a higher grade than that used for the .44 Magnum model, and the heat treating is different. Neither of these can be duplicated by any gunsmith that would convert the .44 to .454 and Ruger, of course, will not convert any existing guns to .454.

Ben

[Potsy]

A HA!!
I'm much better at this game once I've figured out were leaving practicality out of the picture!

Hamilton Bowen at Bowen Classic Arms did some action work on my Bisley and put a set of his target sights on it and I'm very happy with it. He can also build you a 5-shot custom .454 (or .475 Linebauegh or .500 Linebaugh).

It does get expensive though. I think (too lazy to look on his sight) his 5-shot conversions run around $1500 on your gun (there are those whose work is probably as good, who are somewhat cheaper). The expense comes in with needing to fab a whole new cylinder and not just ream the old one. Plus, on .475's & .500's the cylinders are larger diameter, requiring the cylinder window to be enlarged (not sure about the .454). Not to mention action work, target sights, etc.

I've thought about one of his .475 conversions, we've got more grizzlies and buffalo here in TN than ya'll do in FL (wink wink).

Hate to plug another site, but do a little digging on the Ruger Forum. There's a pic from just about every custom Ruger 'smith somewhere on there.

[Ickisrulz]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy a BFR. Aren't they pretty much like a very nice Super Blackhawk for under $1K?

[Big Ryan]

I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy a BFR. Aren't they pretty much like a very nice Super Blackhawk for under $1K?

Plus I really like the Bisley grip angle alot more then other pistols that shoot the 454, like the redhawk, the BFR, or taurus. The BFR feels too much like a super BH to me. The grip angle stinks IMO, and it ends up biting my knuckle on the trigger guard when shooting magnum cartridges. If you ever compared the grip of a Bisley frame to that of a non-bisley BH you would see where Im comming from. After readin Ben's last post, Im wondering now if there is any difference in the steel quality between the 44mag bisley & the 45 colt bisley? I own both, and would be using the 45 colt frame for the conversion because of the barrel diameter. Does'nt Gary Reeder use Bisley frames for his 454 conversions? Sure looks like it to me? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245946641

[Big Ryan]

Ok, after seeing Gary infact does do these conversions, I decided to give him a call. He used to live right next door to my grandfather 20yrs ago when he lived in FL, so I know him failry well. Anyways, he said that the Bisley frame is more then strong enough for the conversion, but as ya'll mentioned the cylinder is not, nor is the factory barrel. He said a custom 5 shot cylinder would be installed and all internals replaced to cope with the rotation on the 5 shot, Plus a new stronger SS barrel in standard factory contour up to 8" in length. All for $600 using my pistol. :grin: Thats $350 for the cylinder & internals & then $250 for the new stronger barrel. If I want a Octagon barrel it would be $500, so I would be looking at $850 total then. He said that the super redhawks have a strong enough factory 6 shot cylinder & barrel that all is required to do with them is a simple cylinder rebore job. So, the conclusion is I can get this done with my pistol, Which was $500, and be at $1100 for the total investment. Not to bad I think for a custom revolver. Ofcouse the octagon barrel and a good porting job would bump me up into the $1500 total investment. Still not too bad considering these pistols quite often bring 2k or more on the auction sites. He said it would take 6-8 weeks. I would'nt mind going with one of Gary's custom GNR based rounds (Like the 510GNR), but If I keep with the 454 idea I can still shoot all these 45 colts I have loaded up. :-D

[boatswainsmate]

Look at the bottom of the page
http://www.customsixguns.com/sixguns.htm

[Big Ryan]

Look at the bottom of the page
http://www.customsixguns.com/sixguns.htm

LOL, That woulda saved alot of searching. Thanks boats! Man, Thats kewl, he even does .475 & .500 Linebaugh Bisley Conversions.:p ....One final question though, I see these barrel bands at the end of some of the ruger custom revolvers, what exactly are they used for?, or are they just for aesthetics?
http://www.customsixguns.com/sixguns/Linebaugh%20063a.jpg

[boatswainsmate]

This guys are theone's to ask that question
http://singleactions.proboards.com/index.cgi

[Nueces]

Look closely at how that Ruger muzzle band is fitted and see that it's rear flange lies against the end of the ejector housing, keeping it from taking flight after the puny little fixin' screw shears under recoil.

Mark

[subsonic]

If youre doing this, why not just go 5 shot .45 colt? You can match the casull with cheaper components. You are limited only by cylinder length, not case length because you can use a boolit that gives the same internal case capacity as the .454 when using .45 colt brass by simply placing the crimp groove further toward the base of the boolit by the difference in case length. OAL will stay the same, as will case capacity. And you said you already load for .45 colt.

[Big Ryan]

If youre doing this, why not just go 5 shot .45 colt? You can match the casull with cheaper components. You are limited only by cylinder length, not case length because you can use a boolit that gives the same internal case capacity as the .454 when using .45 colt brass by simply placing the crimp groove further toward the base of the boolit by the difference in case length. OAL will stay the same, as will case capacity. And you said you already load for .45 colt.

Yes, but the 45colt brass is no where near as thick or strong as 454 cases. Thus you can safely push the 454 much faster & much flatter at longer distances without the worry of case failure.

[BCall]

Did you read this article? I don't think you would have any trouble with modern 45 colt brass, unless you intend on loading beyond what is considered safe.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24

[shooting on a shoestring]

"Yes, but the 45colt brass is no where near as thick or strong as 454 cases."

Not being sarcastic, but are they really?

I'd like to measure one or a couple. I just ran out to my bench and measured the following for case thickness. No means a complete list, just what was in easy reach for me at the moment. I don't have any .454 cases.

RP 45/70 0.011
Hornady 45/70 0.0115
Win 45 Colt 0.011
Starline 45 Colt 0.012
Win 45 ACP 0.011
Win 44 Mag 0.011
45 Shceofeld 0.015
RP 30/30 0.011
unkn .308 0.016
unkn .243 0.016
win .357 0.012
Win .38 0.012

I wonder just what the neck thickness is on a 454 Casull.

[Big Ryan]

Ok, so lets assume that the 45colt cases now adays are just as tough as the 454 cases,(And they prob are). To shoot them at peak performance and match or even get close to what the 454 can do I will still need to get a custom 5 shot cylinder made, and all the internal parts to deal with the 5 shot rotation, plus the new barrel. Reeder says the factory barrels are not rated to handle anything over 45k as they are to weak at the bottom rear of the barrel... Sami specs say the 454 cartridge is max cup at 65k, but Reeder told me today that they are closer to 72k. If im going to have a custom made cylinder done up to shoot the stronger 50k colt case loads then why would'nt I just get it done in the 454, then I could shoot both the high perform 454's and 45 colts right?...PS Thanks for the link to that article BCall, it was a good read.

[BCall]

Your welcome Ryan, I also thought it was interesting when someone posted it a while back.

And you are correct about the 5 shot cylinder and barrel though. The big thing I suppose is the cost of brass. It used to be alot more expensive than Colt brass, and even now it's quite a bit higher. Rougly $35/100 for Casull compared to $21-22/100 for Colt brass, both Starline. But if a man is spending $1100-$1500 for a revolver, I suppose brass expense isn't as big of an issue.

[tek4260]

Reeder gave you a great price and you should go with it if you want a 5 shot 454 custom.

The Bisley you have, loaded right(and safely) will surprise you when compared to a 454. Not claimed velocity, but actual chronographed velocities.

The BFR is an option to be converted to Bisley if it is a D-Max. The newer JT is different than a Blackhawk. Ruger Bisley parts will bolt up to D-Max revolvers.

[Big Ryan]

Reeder gave you a great price and you should go with it if you want a 5 shot 454 custom.

The Bisley you have, loaded right(and safely) will surprise you when compared to a 454. Not claimed velocity, but actual chronographed velocities.

The BFR is an option to be converted to Bisley if it is a D-Max. The newer JT is different than a Blackhawk. Ruger Bisley parts will bolt up to D-Max revolvers.

Ya, the problem is trying to find one of the older DMax's, and when you do they usualy want $1500-$2000 because now they are considered a collectors item. If Im gonna go that route I might aswell buy a FA in 454 in be done with it. This one is not too bad http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=246483241 If I sold my Bisley and bought this dmax I'd be out about the same amount of $ at first, but then I would have to get the bisley grip conversion for it, so I would be right back up there in the $1500 category. The way it sits now with using my bisley and having Reeder do the work, I will have $1100 into the total investment.

[rbertalotto]

I have a 454 Casull Freedom Arms:

http://images59.fotki.com/v460/photos/2/36012/9508180/P1010005-vi.jpg

I've hunted bear and deer with this revolver and been successful a number of times.

I also have a Rossi Puma Winchester 1892 in 454 Casull:

http://images56.fotki.com/v127/photos/2/36012/9578412/DSC_2600-vi.jpg

I'm a huge fan of the 454. Back in the day I met and spent an hour talking guns with Dick Casull at a SHOT show. One of the best hours I ever spent in my life.

All my 454 brass is at least 10-15 years old. And it is MUCH thicker than my 45LC brass. Both in the bass and the web.

The Freedom Arms revolvers are more than just a cylinder with one fewer holes. The metal that is used, how the grain is structured and the absolute minimum tolerances are all taken into account to handle a 65K load.

When I first got involved with the 454 I was into the "power" thing. I loaded them to the max. Destroyed scopes, my ears and my wrists! I started loading down the SOB. Much more fun to shoot and kills 375 pound black bears just as well. Deer go down like hit by lightning.

Lately I've been taking 454 brass and cutting it down to 45LC size and loading it to 44 Magnum pressures and shooting them in my Ruger BH and Marlin 1884. Just a bit less velocity than the 454 but a lot less recoil and muzzle blast. I don't think the paper targets, beer cans filled with water or the bears and deer will notice the difference!

[Ed K]

One option is that the market is a little soft on FA 454s: you do not need to spend $2K+ to get one. Your finished Reeder gun will be in the ballpark of a nice used one. Maybe @ $2400 list price a FA may not be considered as holding its' value but at half that I do not see how you can get hurt. I will say that the Reeder price seems more than fair for the work involved but custom work is expensive by its' very nature and at the same price (range) the FA may be the better value.

[c.r.]

Who would any of you recommend to make such a custom 5 shot cylinder at a reasonable price? redneck:

David Clements does a 5-shot conversion using the factor barrel for the .45 Colt.
http://www.clementscustomguns.com/rugerrevolvers.html

scroll down about 2/3rds down the page and look for "5 shot 45 Colt conversion utilizing factory barrel:"

His price for this package is a bit less than the cost of a full blown 5-shot conversion. I suggest talking with Mr. Clements to find out the in's and out's of the conversion. I'm also sure many of the other quality SA smiths out there will perform the same conversion for a similar price.

I will also suggest that if you're going to jump into a custom, don't cut corners to save a few 100 bucks. spend the extra money to get exactly what you want. you're going to have to wait a while for the gun to be built (can be up to a year and half for a custom from some of one man shops, i've even heard of over 2+yrs in some case) and i doubt you'll ever second guess spending the money, but you may regret not getting exactly what you want. When you choose a quality Smith, you'll never regret spending the money.

there's much more to building a quality 5-shot revovler than just fitting a 5-shot cylinder.

jmho,
c.r.

[Big Ryan]

Ya, but all that is doing is making your 45 colt 6 shot into the stronger 45colt 5 shot cylinder. Its utilizing the same barrel because its the same shell. That conversion is not making it a 454 or any other caliber. And for $1150 using your gun, OUCH!!. Heck for basicly the same procedure Reeder is charging $600 for, clements is charging $1995, thats more then a few hundred dollars. Im sure his work is worth it in his eyes, and a few others, but I would not consider those kinda of prices to be reasonable. I think for what Im after, Reeders work will be more then sufficent, and his prices are more then reasonable, they are realistic. Dont get me wrong C.R., I truly appreciate your suggestions & input, and I will def give him a call to see how he justify's his cost. Clements just seems to be a bit too proud of his work for my needs is all.

[918v]

If you convert a BH to 454, the gun won't last. It may hold up for a couple hundred shots, but endshake will soon appear, the frame will stretch, and the forcing cone will erode. FA uses better steel than Ruger. Furthermore, field grade FAs can be found for around $1000 used... a much better deal.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have an FA 454 and a custom 5 shot Bisley 475 and would go with a BFR..
The first time.. Not a racecar like the FA and not the cost of a custom...

[Whitworth]

Groo here
I have an FA 454 and a custom 5 shot Bisley 475 and would go with a BFR..
The first time.. Not a racecar like the FA and not the cost of a custom...

Great advice!

[subsonic]

I'm wondering how long it will be before someone starts making Bisley frame castings that fit on BFRs.

[Whitworth]

Not likely, unfortunately. It's a lot of work. Easy on the D-Max framed BFRs as it is a bolt on, but the newer ones require a lot of massaging.

[softpoint]

My suggestion: Skip the Ruger, and find a clean used FA. When Ruger and Taurus started producing 454's, factory loads were reduced considerably from what the original FA factory loads were. I've had both a Ruger Alaskan and a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454. Loads that were not even max in my FA would not extract in the Rugers I don't load my 454 to it's max most of the time anyway, but it also happens to be the second most accurate revolver I have ever owned. The most accurate revolver I have is another FA in .44 magnum. Scoped, the .44 has shot a few 3 shot clusters around and an inch at 100 meters, the 454 has shot a couple of 1.5 inchers at the same distance. I am sure they won't do that every time, nor can I hold that well all the time, but that is far better than my Rugers have done. And I have a lot more Ruger revolvers than FA guns.
While I am sure the conversion would be accurate and doable with a five shot cylinder, you can probably find a clean, used FA for less than 1500. I have no experience with the BFR revolvers, but they do get good reviews from folks here. JMHO:p

[subsonic]

Not likely, unfortunately. It's a lot of work. Easy on the D-Max framed BFRs as it is a bolt on, but the newer ones require a lot of massaging.

I mean, what would it take to make bisley frame castings meant to fit the bfr, not modified ruger frames. Or just cnc them from scratch....

[frankenfab]

Plus I really like the Bisley grip angle alot more then other pistols that shoot the 454, like the redhawk, the BFR, or taurus. The BFR feels too much like a super BH to me. The grip angle stinks IMO, and it ends up biting my knuckle on the trigger guard when shooting magnum cartridges. If you ever compared the grip of a Bisley frame to that of a non-bisley BH you would see where Im comming from. After readin Ben's last post, Im wondering now if there is any difference in the steel quality between the 44mag bisley & the 45 colt bisley? I own both, and would be using the 45 colt frame for the conversion because of the barrel diameter. Does'nt Gary Reeder use Bisley frames for his 454 conversions? Sure looks like it to me? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245946641

I have a .500 Linebaugh built on a SBH, and had this exact problem. I learned that if I squeeze the grip much harder with my lower fingers, keep my elbow locked, and let my whole arm move sideways under recoil, my knucles never get rapped.

[Frank]

softpoint:

Scoped, the .44 has shot a few 3 shot clusters around and an inch at 100 meters, the 454 has shot a couple of 1.5 inchers at the same distance. I am sure they won't do that every time, nor can I hold that well all the time, but that is far better than my Rugers have done. I have no experience with the BFR revolvers, but they do get good reviews from folks here. JMHO :-P

Yup, BFR's are just :awesome:

BFR 45/70 100 yards
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4229

[tek4260]

Big Ryan, also notice that those in the know here(not me, the old hands at customs) always seem to be shooting 475's and 500's and generally share a distaste for the 454. You might consider asking why before you jump on a 454 over something a bit bigger.

[Racer X]

Hamilton Bowen stated in his book "The Custom Revolver" that some smiths do not like building 454s on the Blackhawk platform due to the insane chamber pressures. In his book he states (I paraphrase) that the chamber pressure of a 454 running at 65K PSI is probably exponentially harder on the gun than a hot-loaded 5-shot 45 Colt running at 55K PSI.

The Freedom Arms guns are designed and built to handle 454 pressures...Blackhawks are not. Furthermore, there are not many of us who could stand shooting enough of the 65K PSI 454 loads to become proficient with the gun.

I agree with the above posters that if you are set on getting a 454, get a Freedom Arms. They are stronger guns than the BFRs or any Blackhawk conversion in 454. The 454 chambering is also the most widely available Freedom Arms gun on the used market, mainly because people buy them and realize it is too much gun for them.

[frankenfab]

I still have my FA .454, but if I load it up to its full potential, (why own a Lamborghini and putts around in it?) it's not that much fun to shoot. The recoil is very nasty and snappy to me. I haven't had any trouble with accuracy, nor can I detect any wear on the gun, and it is an older .454 (says "Freedom Arms Casull" on the side).

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'd be getting a BFR in 45/70, same or better performance, less pressure. The old Gubbermint round does it all while just loafing!

[Whitworth]

Hamilton Bowen stated in his book "The Custom Revolver" that some smiths do not like building 454s on the Blackhawk platform due to the insane chamber pressures. In his book he states (I paraphrase) that the chamber pressure of a 454 running at 65K PSI is probably exponentially harder on the gun than a hot-loaded 5-shot 45 Colt running at 55K PSI.

The Freedom Arms guns are designed and built to handle 454 pressures...Blackhawks are not. Furthermore, there are not many of us who could stand shooting enough of the 65K PSI 454 loads to become proficient with the gun.

I agree with the above posters that if you are set on getting a 454, get a Freedom Arms. They are stronger guns than the BFRs or any Blackhawk conversion in 454. The 454 chambering is also the most widely available Freedom Arms gun on the used market, mainly because people buy them and realize it is too much gun for them.

The FAs are definitely not stronger than BFRs in .454. There is actually more beef in key areas of the frame on the BFR. The BFR's cylinder is also bigger. The price is a bit more bulk. Both the BFR and the FA are built from 17-4PH steel (frames and cylinders), so they are going to be really difficult to hurt. Not that it matters as they are both extremely strong revolvers.

Also, as a sidenote, the SRH in .454 isn't giving anything up in the strength department. The testing it was subjected to by Ruger is mind numbing. Despite the six-shot cylinder, it was built from Carpenter steel and is exceedingly strong. Sticky extraction was a machining issue, not an issue with strength.

Yup, the .454 is an unpleasant round, loaded to spec (62,000 psi is the SAAMI max). I personally prefer the .45 Colt. That said, if you are going to put up with the recoil, might as well step up to the .475 Linebaugh. It's definitely a bigger hammer.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I just noticed that the BFRs in 30/30 and 45/70 have been advertised in a magazine here at a considerable discount. I don't know if it was a misprint, I will check tomorrow.

[jwp475]

Hamilton Bowen stated in his book "The Custom Revolver" that some smiths do not like building 454s on the Blackhawk platform due to the insane chamber pressures. In his book he states (I paraphrase) that the chamber pressure of a 454 running at 65K PSI is probably exponentially harder on the gun than a hot-loaded 5-shot 45 Colt running at 55K PSI.

The Freedom Arms guns are designed and built to handle 454 pressures...Blackhawks are not. Furthermore, there are not many of us who could stand shooting enough of the 65K PSI 454 loads to become proficient with the gun.

I agree with the above posters that if you are set on getting a 454, get a Freedom Arms. They are stronger guns than the BFRs or any Blackhawk conversion in 454. The 454 chambering is also the most widely available Freedom Arms gun on the used market, mainly because people buy them and realize it is too much gun for them.



Both the FA and the BFR are both made out of the same material (PH 17-4). The cylinder thickness is about the same, but the frame of the BFR is thicker, thus giving the overall strenght to the BFR