Marlin closing down

[foxtrapper]

As per Johhttp://www.reedercustomguns.net/forum/index.php?id=2839n Taffin

[Murphy]

Damn it is about all I have to say,

Murphy

[Canuck Bob]

Wow, that is sad. Hopefuly it is only to get thier factory in order.

[lbaize3]

Man, I will miss buying marlin firearms new in the box....

[Ben]

If that is true ? ? ?........and you own a Marlin ( or a few ), I guess we all know what this means for the resale prices on Marlin firearms.

Ben

[mpbarry1]

Nooooooo! Are we going to have any US gun makes left in a few years? @$#@!$#%

[bearcove]

As per Joh http://www.reedercustomguns.net/forum/index.php?id=2839n Taffin

see if that works

[bowfin]

Nooooooo! Are we going to have any US gun makers left in a few years? @$#@!$#%

We need to have more CEOs like Bill Ruger Sr. who actually wanted to make firearms, and not just run a bottom line in a ledger book.

Like so many companies, it appears the board room thought that the "drones" who actually make the products are easily replaced. I bet they still don't know any better. It takes good people to run a good organization, and not just at the top. Privates, offensive linemen, and production people are as important as generals, quarterbacks, and CEOs.

[bearcove]

Sounds like an excuse to close it down. There are pleanty of people out there that could deal with QC issues.

[bowfin]

Sounds like an excuse to close it down. There are plenty of people out there that could deal with QC issues.

I don't think they would have moved the whole plant from Connecticut last year if they intended on closing it this year.

I do think the Freedom Group is plagued by dunces much like those who almost put Smith & Wesson into the grave. They have played musical chairs with H&R, Remington, Bushmaster, Thompson/Center, and Marlin. They have done all sorts of "streamlining" that has disrupted ahalf dozen work forces, and the chickens have come home to roost.

[Artful]

I hope the come back with all in good order.

[mpbarry1]

I was just wondering about marlin. I kind of have an obsession with getting a 32-20 lately. so i packed up a years worth of american rifleman and took them camping at anthony lake this week. I didn't see a single ad by marlin in them. might have missed one, but they weren't obvious. They also weren't in the yearly roundup of company offerings.

The Freedom Group is a symptom of a bad business model plaguing our county. Larger companies in theory have an economy of scale which should make them more efficient. Reality is that opposite is true. small companies are more adaptable, and are easier to steer. they also have a lot more loyalty from the employees, customers and leadership.

If the freedom group scares you, just give some thought to ATK which owns 80 percent of our component companies. That ought to scare the h e double toothpicks out of ya.

[waksupi]

Hopefully they will relocate to this area. There has been a real push here to bring in more firearms companies. Another one opened here this past couple weeks, to join at least a dozen main suppliers, and that many again custom jobbers.

[Frank46]

Been at many a gun show and always saw marlins around. Last show was saturday and although not looking for a marlin actually did not see a lot for sale. Maybe the dealers are sitting on them to see in which direction the prices of the older pre remington go. My guess is up. I have about 5 marlins and all are keepers. I had heard of quality issues about the newer ones and that may have been the reason for taking the marlin plant off line. Or at least until they get their act together. Frank

[JesterGrin_1]

Even if they do get there QC issues straight and produce a good lever gun once again they have done major harm to the name up to this point.

[altheating]

I thought Remington had purchased Marlin and several other brands and moved all of the production to the Ilion NY facility? I know a while back there was an article in our local paper stating they were putting on more people at the Ilion location to handle the merged lines. Maybe it fell apart.

[starnbar]

There is a rumor going around at the Carolina remington plant about marlin coming south maybe yes maybe no.

[Swampman]

Marlin isn't closing down. They are just sorting things out.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

semantics at play: they are not closing down, they just aren't building rifles for the forseeable future.

Rich

[dualsport]

I'm surprised nobody sees this as a good thing. They have chosen to stop putting out inferior products, which means loss of income. This tells me they are investing in protecting the Marlin reputation, an example of long term thinking. Yes, it's unfortunate it came to this, but considering the facts I'd call it a good and wise move. Hopefully they will iron out the issues quickly and be back in business better than ever. Meanwhile the used Marlin business will go crazy.

[Swampman]

semantics at play: they are not closing down, they just aren't building rifles for the forseeable future.

Rich

They've already said for the rest of 2011.

[JesterGrin_1]

And this is just for Lever Guns.

[bearcove]

The idea that you can shut down a new plant and then just start it up later and produce a quality product is questionable. They already lost a lot of the employes that knew what they were doing. Do you think laying off the rest for a while will help?

[bearcove]

And this is just for Lever Guns.

That is the only thing they make of much interest. Think they can turn it around competing with Savage making bolt guns?

[bowfin]

I'm surprised nobody sees this as a good thing.

Because if the management couldn't keep a good product from going bad, then I have very little confidence that they can turn a bad product back into good.


They already lost a lot of the employes that knew what they were doing. Do you think laying off the rest for a while will help?

Exactly. I sure wouldn't want one of the North Haven rifles after all the employees learned that they were losing their jobs. In a perfect world, those employees would have kept making the best rifles they could as a matter of personal pride. Then again, in a perfect world, they would have kept their jobs.

[Swampman]

Nobody's getting laid off.

I hope they quit making Marlin boltguns. We already have the Remington 700.

[smoked turkey]

Seems the bottom line drives everything. It is like someone posted above, we need CEOs at the helm of these organizations that are gun people who like guns and want to make guns and that understand gun people. I think a lot of the bean counters and CEOs of some of our gun and component companies don't even like guns. As long as they make a profit all is well. To them they would just as soon make anything. Whatever whether it is cans of beans, lawn mowers, etc. The only thing that matters is the bottom line.

[JesterGrin_1]

I have nothing against Remington 700's as I have a couple of BDL's from the 50's. But the Marlin XL Rifle will out shoot them and is a fine rifle. Especially for the cost. They also have a nice action and trigger to build from just as you would a Savage. Same threads.

Marlin XL-7 with a Shaw 24 in 1-14 Twist 35 Whelen barrel in a Boyd's Thumb Hole stock.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/Marlin%20XL-7%20build%20to%2035%20Whelen/35Whelen4.jpg

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the music you hear is "Taps" not "Reveille"...

Rich

[10 ga]

I'm in the market for a lever 22rf. Was aiming for a 39! Now it's a Henry for sure, handled a few Henrys at the range and in the shops and they seem like good rifles. Might get a Henry dirty 30 too, as the only CFs I have are 17s and 222. 10

[Ziptar]

I really do hope they get it together, I hope this isn't it for Marlin but, I've just been looking through FGI's 8Ks, 10Ks, and Quarterlies.

I can't say I have allot of hope but, I'd love for them to prove me wrong.

These guys have acquired too many companies, they are trying to gobble up too much of the pie, at the same time trying to get it all tied up in neat little efficient boxes, and are overreaching way too much. For cripes sake, they just bought "Mountain Khakis". Forget the pants... Fix the Marlins.

The first one I opened was dated 3/25/2010 and was the announcement of a "strategic rationalization
decision", This is were they had the bright idea to close North Haven and Move production to Ilion.


On March 25, 2010, Freedom Group, Inc. (the “Company”) announced a strategic rationalization
decision that will result in the closure of its manufacturing facility in North Haven, Connecticut (the
“Rationalization Decision”). The Company notified affected employees of this decision on March 25, 2010.
The Rationalization Decision is expected to provide improved efficiencies that are expected to
ultimately result in lower costs to customers and end users. The closure is expected to be completed by the
end of June 2011.

http://www.ziptar.com/images/1.jpg

They never actually do the math to figure out the return on investment of the $8.4 Million via the " provide improved efficiencies that are expected to ultimately result in lower costs to customers and end users" statement.

(rrrriiiiggghhhhhtttt.....)

http://www.freedom-group.com/2010-Marlin8-K.pdf

In the 2010 Annual 10K Filing they mention.....

Marlin is conducting remediation activities at a former facility in New Haven, Connecticut. Costs for remediation are at not expected to be material.

However there is no cost estimate, the item is repeated verbatim in Q2.

http://www.freedom-group.com/2010-10-K.pdf

It's hard to tell how the implementation of the “Rationalization Decision” is going for them. In the Q1 and Q2 reports as they lump the costs of relocating both the Marlin North Haven, CT and Bushmaster Windham, Me plants together.

From the Q2 Report:

http://www.ziptar.com/images/2.jpg

http://www.freedom-group.com/FGI-2011-Q2.pdf

Later on is where we get a glimpse of trouble brewing, pages 25 & 26, I snipped them together for ease of display here.

http://www.ziptar.com/images/3.jpg

The Q2 report was filed on 6/30/2011, at that point the transition was barley complete, production at Ilion had not yet or barley started, and find they were already 10% over original cost estimates. In addition they state "We have experienced certain transition delays and start up inefficiencies as part of our consolidation efforts;"

The last bit of that almost doubled me over with laughter.


Management continues to expect economic and operational benefits from these strategic decisions.

To paraphrase my Irish Immigrant Grandfather, You can "continues to expect" in one hand and (insert defecation euphemism here) in the other and see which one fills up first.

I think one of their "Forward Looking Statements" in both the Q1 and Q2 reports pretty much sums it up.


Achieving the benefits of our acquisitions will depend in part on the integration of products and internal operating systems in a timely and efficient manner. Such integration may be unpredictable, and subject to delay because the products and systems typically were developed independently and were designed without regard to such integration. If we cannot successfully integrate such products and internal operating systems on a timely basis, we may lose customers and our business and results of operations may be harmed.

Congratulations Boys!! You can take that one out the "Forward Looking Statements" section, that one is in your rear view mirror now.

As has become all to common in the last 40 years as the "Financialization" of America has increased, it's stereotypical almost.

Some bean counter(s) somewhere put together a spreadsheet and figured out they'd make $x amount of profit by shutting down New Haven, CT liquidating assets and staff, moving and setting up production in Ilion NY.

Unfortunately bean counters and spreadsheets don't live in the real world. They live in an academic / financial bizarro world where the math is always right, nothing ever goes awry, and everything goes according to plan. They use phrases there like "strategic rationalization decision", "direct product management", and "six sigma strategies". They like to talk about "improved efficiencies" but, they have no clue how its done in practice.

I'm really looking forward to their Q3 filing to see how this is all working out of them.

So far they it looks me like:

10% over cost estimates for moving production, and it wasn't even under way yet.
Paying an as of yet determined amount for remediation at the closed plant.
Lost one full quarter of sales due due to to halting production and moving it.
Warrantied / Refunded (most of?) the production from the new plant since starting up.
Ceased production again at the new plant for at least the rest of the year.
Lost customers and business.
Harmed (if not entirely murdered) The Marlin brand and its operations.


I think by the time the Q3 comes the original $8.4 Million cost is going to look a whole lot bigger. I'm willing to bet there are quite a few within the company that are wishing the "strategic rationalization decision" had never seen the light of day.

These finance types never seem to remember the law of diminishing marginal returns and further are unable value anything that is unquantifiable.

[bowfin]

Very interesting, Ziptar.

Thanks for posting that and doing the interpreting.

It looks like the axed the wrong guys when it comes to saving money.

[whd45]

I guess I will have to start looking for an older Marlin now. I like the old guns anyway.

[bearcove]

Biggest problem is they look at making guns as the same as selling chickens.

Any fool can kill a chicken.

[Matthew 25]

ziptar, thanks for that effort, that took some time.

[markinalpine]

Thank you, Ziptar. I started to look at just one of their PDF reports, and my eyes crossed!:veryconfu
I appreciate you taking the time, and I agree with your analysis.
Kind of like the way some of those in Goobermint think they know how to run our lives from Washington, DC. [smilie=p:
Mark :coffee:

[mustanggt]

This isn't a new incarnation of Cerburs Capital is it??? Those are the guys who ran Chrysler farther into the ground and then the government had to bail them out. You don't think this might be where it's headed do you??? Can you imagine the firearms industry going the way of the auto industry??? Too many conspiracies are coming true these days, makes me go hmmmmm.

[Gtek]

Probably have Lean Sigma in place, works great for "A bolt" in "B hole" for the ants. Does not work wher fit and feel is a learned skill. Gov. IDIOT types, I have a shingle, I know the world. I am surrounded by them 40+ a week, get them outside the box and it gets really crazy. I have seen a lot of papered ones over the years and they are usually the ones that pee on the floor when it thunders! Gtek

[Ziptar]

You are welcome everyone on the financial reports stuff. I am a bit of a financial / economics geek but, I am by no means a professional, wouldn't want to be either.



Probably have Lean Sigma in place, works great for "A bolt" in "B hole" for the ants. Does not work wher fit and feel is a learned skill. Gov. IDIOT types, I have a shingle, I know the world. I am surrounded by them 40+ a week, get them outside the box and it gets really crazy. I have seen a lot of papered ones over the years and they are usually the ones that pee on the floor when it thunders! Gtek

The problem with the shingled / credentialed types is in their world all swans are white. When they are confronted with black ones they, return to their spread sheets and charts (after they pee on the floor), recalculate everything, come up with the same numbers, and always make the same decision in the end:


"Our years of academic training and our advanced degrees tell us that what we have been doing thus far is what should work. If what we have been doing thus far is not working then we should keep doing what we are now, just more of it."

I believe that is the crux of their production issues. They are trying to consolidate the production of products from the several manufacturers and their wide array of models that they have purchased into a very few production streams.

In this case "A Bolt", "B Bolt", "C Bolt", "D Bolt", and "E Bolt" into "F Hole", and now they are going to make pants to boot.

It would be like a company buying Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota and trying to build all of their models on the same single production line.

Never going to happen.

Unfortunately, the fate of Marlin now rests in the hands of the very same people that broke it.

Their acquisition cost is $48.1 million for Marlin. Using the estimate of 10% thus far for production transition cost over runs that puts the Marlin Transition at $9.24 Million. There is an impairment charge in the 2010 10-K of $2.7 million on the sale (if it ever happens) of the North Haven property, there are the remediation costs for North Haven, The loss of 3/4 of a year of Marlin Annual sales (which I've not yet found figures for previous years to estimate with.), the cost of warrantying the Ilion production, the cost of refunding the Ilion production which are retail refunds for sales of rifles made at wholesale prices, and finally the cost of the quality improvements and or retooling (if they can be made) during this new shutdown.

My fear is at some point, the bean counters are going to add it all up and decide the most cost effective thing to do is to shelve Marlin production entirely and sell the rights to the name to some other producer (most likely outside the U.S.).

[largom]

Most companies today REQUIRE college educated idiots for managers. Paper smart and common sense dumb. I have nothing against a college education but a person that has worked their way up thru the ranks knows more about running the company than the new guy off the street with a degree in his pocket for experience. Same goes for officers in the military!

Larry

[wiljen]

That does suggest that the guy who got the lever with no rifling in the tube awhile back wasn't a single unfortunate event. When you completely close up shop in order to fix QC issues, they aren't small issues.

[6pt-sika]

I have nothing against Remington 700's as I have a couple of BDL's from the 50's.

Sorry but ya don't have any 700's from the 50's they didn't start production until 1962 !

Now you may have some 721's or 722's from the 50's as those were made from 1948 until 1962 or so !

[6pt-sika]

While I feel sorry for the folks that lost their jobs when Marlin H&R moved to Ilion , I can't say I really feel sorry for the present crowd !

They had a fair amount of time to get their s..t straight before they made "the BIG Move" !

Now with that being said I own a fair amount of firearms that were produced by Marlin AND Remington . And I expect I will acquire more as time goes on !

HOWEVER they WON'T be factory new ones unless I can find 30+ year old rifles new in the box !

For Marlin's I expect 1980 or so would be about as new as I would consider . Granted I have one 444 that was made in 2001 . But unless I have a major change of opinion that will be the baby of my Marlin accumulation !

As to Remington my newest was made in 1995 or 1996 and I doubt very seriousely if I purchase ANYMORE new Remington's , but rather will gravitate to the 721's , 722's and early 700's .

So with ALL THAT being said , if they come back into production as they project thats good and fine for the gun industry as a whole and for the state of economy in this country .

But ........................... if they fail to restart I'm not going to loose any sleep either !

[6pt-sika]

That does suggest that the guy who got the lever with no rifling in the tube awhile back wasn't a single unfortunate event. When you completely close up shop in order to fix QC issues, they aren't small issues.

When you close up shop to "fix" QC issues that means you had virtually NO QC to begin with !

[tonyb]

You come china, we build rever action for rou.

[jhrosier]

I bought a new Marlin 1894 stainless .44 mag a couple of years ago.

QC was not good at all. Razor sharp edges, metal chips inside action, Would not lock up unless bolt was pushed closed by hand, rear sling swivel stud was about 1/8" off center of stock. The fit and finish of the stock and metalwork was just barely acceptable.

I wouldn't ever buy another new Marlin unless I could check it out before laying down my hard earned cash.

Jack

[tomme boy]

I remember a few years back a few people were giving out the warnings about this Freedon Group. They were saying they had a lot of Anti's behind in the shadows that are major investment holders. They had the names of the investors, the groups. These were all backed completely by antis. I wish I would have saved the info as I can not recall where I was actually reading it. But it was all put together to shut down the gun business.

You know the back door way of doing all things in Gov't these days. So just how many companies have they closed down?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

IT IS AMERICA THAT IS SHUTTING DOWN.

BvT

[Freightman]

IT IS AMERICA THAT IS SHUTTING DOWN.

BvT
Hate to agree with you on that but I am afraid you are right sad to say.

[Ziptar]

IT IS AMERICA THAT IS SHUTTING DOWN.

BvT


Hate to agree with you on that but I am afraid you are right sad to say.

I'm not disagreeing with you but, it's bigger than that, "Financial Innovation" has reached every corner of the globe.

The only winners of the "Globalization" game are the large multinational corprations and the money changers, there is not a population, society, or country that have derived any benefits from it.

Luckily for us, All things eventually end, unfortunately for them they run out of acreage to strip mine.

[truckmsl]

IF this is true, I wonder what it'll be like getting parts for our Marlins?

[DukeInFlorida]

Bushmaster got moved to the Illion plant.... As part of the Freedom Group.

Just a few weeks ago, Dick Dyke announced the opening of Windham Firearms in Bushmaster's old location. They have rehired 50 of the previous 70 employees. Guess what they are going to be making......

BLACK GUNS......

[bearcove]

It will cycle back to small business supplying the demand and the corps will sell off the company logo when thats all thats left

[bydand]

Maybe future Marlins will have a "Made in Japan" label A friend has one in 45-70 and I didn't see ANY QC problems with it.

[MtGun44]

If another entrepreauner can make better Marlins than the Freedom Group, they will be
successful, if the market is really there. IMO, the world is shifting to black rifles. All the
youngsters today are being trained up on M4s and M16s, and want one when they go home.
Not too many western movies made any more, essentially none on TV, so no kids are seeing
a kind of rifle that they would some day like to buy.

Historically, when Johnny comes marching home from war, he wants a rifle like the one he had
in the Army (or Marines, etc.). Bolt rifles took over in hunting after WW1, and semi-autos made
a big dent after WW2. AR15s and AR10 clones are filling a lot of hunting and shooting roles
these days. Every one of them sold is one less of another type not sold.

My guess is that the lever market is steadily shrinking. Henry, Rossi and Uberti are providing
a lot of lever guns.

I have been worried all along that somebody like Soros with deep pockets would buy up all
the gun companies (total value is comparitively small) and just shut them down. That is the
scary part. The good news is that if there is a void, somebody will fill it. We might lose the
old names, but are likely to have new ones like Henry (reincarnated old name).

Bill

[Gee_Wizz01]

I am afraid I see a more vile ending of this problem. Maybe Marlins made in Japan or Brazil (Have you seen a Rossi Rio?) is a possibility, but there goes another "Made in USA" product. My real fear is the UN gun treaty. It doesn't have a prayer of getting through our senate at this time, but that doesn't matter if we don't produce firearms here in the U.S., because we wont be able to import them if other countries sign on to the treaty.

G

[Leadforbrains]

I have been worried all along that somebody like Soros with deep pockets would buy up all
the gun companies (total value is comparitively small) and just shut them down. That is the
scary part. The good news is that if there is a void, somebody will fill it. We might lose the
old names, but are likely to have new ones like Henry (reincarnated old name).

Bill

I would not put it past someone like soros who plays with countries currencies and ruins whole economies for his own financial gain to do just what you said.

[altheating]

Ok, I just spoke to an employee who works at the Ilion plant. He said that the reports of a shut down of Marlin is absolutely false. He said that they are currently consolidating the production to one specific area in the plant. Right now they are being made at numerous places throughout the factory and they need to get it all in one place to make production more efficient.

[MtGun44]

Thanks Al, one real insider fact is worth 1000 internet rumors.

I wish them well, I like my Marlins.

Bill

[Ed in North Texas]

Thanks Al, one real insider fact is worth 1000 internet rumors.

I wish them well, I like my Marlins.

Bill

There will still be folks profiting from the rumors. I've noticed several GunBroker ads mentioning how Marlins will soon be rare. I hope the word gets out soon. I don't begrudge people making a profit, unless they know what their ad copy says is false.

And I like my Marlins too!

Ed

[Gtek]

GeeWiz- The UN treaty goes around the Senate. That is why they (the anti's) love it. We as a free republic will be told what we will do. Some buy gold, some buy silver, I buy brass. My return will be better. If you want to make an ANTI shake and rattle tell them this - If things get really bad someone else will be eating your food and caring for your women! Instant big eyes-LOVE IT. Gtek

[bowfin]

Right now they are being made at numerous places throughout the factory and they need to get it all in one place to make production more efficient.

It sounds like the move from North Haven wasn't well thought out:

"We're here with all the Marlin stuff we got from Connecticut. Where do you want it?"

"Oh, I don't know...where ever you can find room, I guess... What's with all them handle thingies in the boxes?"

"They're called levers. I'm betting we put them on some of the rifles."

"We're going to make rifles with handle thingies?"

"Maybe, I think...I haven't looked at any of the blueprints yet."

"Why not?"

"We didn't bring them along."

[Leadforbrains]

Thanks Al, one real insider fact is worth 1000 internet rumors.

I wish them well, I like my Marlins.

Bill

A big +one!!!:drinks:

[1Shirt]

Am glad I have two, and wish I had 20. Will probably not be able to afford a new one regardless of cal, and used will be out of sightl!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[JesterGrin_1]

Now I may have to hold on to my Marlin 336 Cowboy in 38-55 for awhile. :)

But I would never part with my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 or my Pre Safety Marlin 1894 in 38/357Mag. :)

[Swampman]

Marlin isn't closing down and production continues on a daily basis.

[Ed in North Texas]

GeeWiz- The UN treaty goes around the Senate. That is why they (the anti's) love it. We as a free republic will be told what we will do. Some buy gold, some buy silver, I buy brass. My return will be better. If you want to make an ANTI shake and rattle tell them this - If things get really bad someone else will be eating your food and caring for your women! Instant big eyes-LOVE IT. Gtek

The UN Treaty goes around the Senate? I know Dear Leader believes he is a dictator who can do anything he wishes, but how does a treaty get ratified (and thus a binding law) without being submitted to the Senate for the ratification vote? Dear Leader could try imposing parts of the proposed treaty via Executive Order, but that can easily be over-ridden by Congress, not to mention court action on the basis of the newly discovered 2d Amendment.

Agree on what to buy in case. I'm putting money into reloading stuff and ammo. Necessary items and good trading material.

[Bomber]

I'm in the market for a lever 22rf. Was aiming for a 39! Now it's a Henry for sure, handled a few Henrys at the range and in the shops and they seem like good rifles. Might get a Henry dirty 30 too, as the only CFs I have are 17s and 222. 10

Henry makes a fine American rifle. I purchased a Big Boy in .45 colt this summer. I've put about 500 rounds through it. Great rifle. Looks really good too.