A Custom Replacement Cylinder???

[klcarroll]

I realize that this might not be the correct forum for my question, …..but since I am looking for the opinion of Gunsmiths, it seems like the logical place.

For over forty years now, one of my more serious character flaws has been an intense, virtually obsessive fascination with Webley revolvers. It was the need to feed an old Mark IV that originally got me into reloading and boolit casting.

Far too many of these fine old revolvers were modified to chamber and shoot the .45 ACP round: …..A round that operates at the PROOF pressure for the .455 Military Rounds! ……That re-chambering may have been an acceptable “wartime expedient” when the choice was an over-stressed revolver or NO revolver: …..But now, 90 years later, it is time to address the issue before any more of my beloved Webleys experience a cylinder failure, and end up on “Gunbroker” as a collection of miscellaneous spare parts!

A modern replacement cylinder, made of properly heat treated “State-of-the-Art” steel, is clearly what is needed here! ……I would keep the .45 ACP chambering, and have the chambers cut to allow the round to headspace even if moon clips were not available. (Like the old Smith and Colt service revolvers.)

I am thinking that the best way to approach this project would be the “Group Buy” format. An aftermarket part like this, that will still require final fitting, is clearly not for everyone; ….But I am sure that on a World-wide basis, “homes” could be found for a couple of hundred such cylinders! (I can’t be the only “Obsessive Webley Nut”!)

I have had few dealings with custom gunsmiths and gunmakers: …Can anyone suggest a craftsman who might tackle this job? (……It will have to be a shop with CNC capability.)


Kent

[MtGun44]

PM John Taylor here - he is set up to make cylinders from scratch.

Bill

[John Taylor]

While I have made more than a few cylinders over the years I don't want to set up to do any others. The last ones I made were for the 1877 Colt in 32 cal. I'm so busy now that I don't think I could find the time to make all the jigs for a different cylinder. I don't have CNC so they are one at a time.

[Piedmont]

I can't help you but if a guy is going to have a character flaw, that is a pretty cool one to have!

[shunka]

You might ask Jay Strite, aka Raven, at CAS City

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=profile;u=7652

He and Hoof-Hearted are part of Walt Kirst's Kirst Konverter Emporium.

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/

They manufacture conversion cylinders & parts for C&B revolvers such as the Rem 1858, Colt Walker, Dragoon, 1851, 1860 etc.

If anyone is interested/can handle such a project, it may be them.

yhs
shunka

[Cap'n Morgan]

Any tool & die shop - or a machine shop worth their salt should be able to make such cylinders. However, you need to do your homework first: Steel grade, heat treating (if any) and tolerances and finish. Todays Machinists seem paralyzed without a detailed drawing or 3-D model.

I once made a cylinder in 45LC for a Webley, on a Bridgeport mill - quite a hassle - Today on a CNC with a fourth axis it would be a snap.

[klcarroll]

Any tool & die shop - or a machine shop worth their salt should be able to make such cylinders. However, you need to do your homework first: Steel grade, heat treating (if any) and tolerances and finish. Todays Machinists seem paralyzed without a detailed drawing or 3-D model.

I once made a cylinder in 45LC for a Webley, on a Bridgeport mill - quite a hassle - Today on a CNC with a fourth axis it would be a snap.


Yeah, .....It appears to me that our thoughts are running on similar lines.

I am a fairly experienced hand with "Solidworks" 3D software, and I spent a number of years designing parts that were produced on a Mazak Integrex; .....So I KNOW that this project would be easily done on a four axis machine.

The problem is getting your average CNC jockey to understand the considerations that are second nature to any experienced Gunsmith.

This is why I feel that a CNC capable custom Gunsmith/Gunmaker would be the optimum case. If I go to a general machine shop, I will inevitably end up trying to bring them "up to speed" on all the various subtleties that relate to firearms.

....But one way or the other, I am going to see this project through!

Kent

[Cap'n Morgan]

This is why I feel that a CNC capable custom Gunsmith/Gunmaker would be the optimum case. If I go to a general machine shop, I will inevitably end up trying to bring them "up to speed" on all the various subtleties that relate to firearms.

I would love talking my boss into taking a job like that, but making gun parts over here takes a lot of red tape. It's simply not worth the hassle for a single order.

[MtGun44]

I have a friend that is a tool and die maker, has two CNC mills, although only 3 axes, and
is a VERY talented S&W gunsmith. His shop rate is $60/hr and he would probably take
the job at shop rate. You want me to ask him?

By the way, he is a champion revolver shooter in several disciplines, too.

Bill

[klcarroll]

I have a friend that is a tool and die maker, has two CNC mills, although only 3 axes, and is a VERY talented S&W gunsmith. His shop rate is $60/hr and he would probably take the job at shop rate. You want me to ask him?



Hey Bill

Your guy sounds like he may be the combination of gunsmith experience and CNC capability I am looking for! ......So YES, I would consider it a great personal favor if you raised the issue with him!

As I mentioned earlier, I have experience designing for CNC production; ......But I have never fitted a cylinder or adjusted the "timing" on a revolver: ......And I don't want to produce an un-usable part that simply LOOKS like a Webley cylinder! (LOL!) .....I am sure that there are several places where a REAL gunsmith would want excess stock left to allow for fine-fitting: ....And I am totally ignorant of those considerations.

$60/hr is pretty darn reasonable, but since I am just recovering from major financial problems, I need to approach a major project like this carefully! ....So there are several questions I would like you to ask when you speak to him:

1) Since I am planning this as a "Group Buy" type of thing, .....is he willing to take on a project that might turn out to be an initial run of 250 pieces??

2) I know that in a CNC operation 90% of the effort (and cost) goes into the initial tooling, setup, and programming: .......Can he provide a cost estimate for the work required to produce "Part #1", and how much of this Setup Cost would he be willing to "bury" in the initial production run??

3) What kind of business relationship would he like to be involved in for any future production runs?


Kent

[MtGun44]

I'll contact my friend. He has made a lot of parts for guns over the years, including some
parts that are currently being sold by big names in the gun industry. I'll let you know.

Bill

[massmanute]

Maybe a dumb question on an out-of-date thread, but what about making new cylinders chambered for .455 Webley? That would restore these old revolvers to original configuration, even if not using original parts.

[kywoodwrkr]

To give folks a fairly good idea of effort involved in making a cylinder, the Ruger Forum has a sticky which details the process.
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54775
When I read conversion, I just substitute replacement.
Granted differences between single action and a Webley, but many similar operations and considerations.
YMMV.

[EDG]

You might want to do an analysis of the strength of the Webley, not just the cylinder but the hinge and locking stirrup et al.
I think you may find that the pistol frame and locking system is the limiting factor and not the cylinder.

[Tokarev]

Any tool & die shop - or a machine shop worth their salt should be able to make such cylinders. However, you need to do your homework first: Steel grade, heat treating (if any) and tolerances and finish. Todays Machinists seem paralyzed without a detailed drawing or 3-D model.

I once made a cylinder in 45LC for a Webley, on a Bridgeport mill - quite a hassle - Today on a CNC with a fourth axis it would be a snap.

Yes, but their cylinders will be $2500-4000 a pop, whereas a competent gunsmith would be able to charge $400 and turn out a profit.
Been there, done that. It always goes like that:

They: what precision are you looking for?
Me: Chambers 0.001", length wise 0.005", other dimensions 0.01"
They: $4000
Me: Why so much when a gunsmith can make it for $400?
They: We are not gunsmiths and need to set up machines blah-blah-blah.

[dmbell502]

Has anything come of the replacement cylinders for the Webley revolvers

[Outpost75]

You might want to do an analysis of the strength of the Webley, not just the cylinder but the hinge and locking stirrup et al. I think you may find that the pistol frame and locking system is the limiting factor and not the cylinder.

Yes, the barrel catch screw is common point of failure.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Too simplistic a solution? Why not just download the .45 to .455 levels and forget the custom cylinders? I've got one, and it works for me. :D

[Outpost75]

Too simplistic a solution? Why not just download the .45 to .455 levels and forget the custom cylinders? I've got one, and it works for me. :D

Give THAT man^^ a cigar!

Current issue of The Fouling Shot has the following pressure tested data from Larry Gibson:

Table -2 .455 Pressure Test Data - Submitted by Larry Gibson, Lake Havasu, AZ

Test Firearm – T/C Contender .45 Colt 10” with strain gage interface to Oehler M43 Ballistic Test System
All test loads assembled in Starline .45 Schofield brass shortened to 0.87” length and rims turned, Winchester LP primer, weighed charges of 3.5 grains Alliant Bullseye throughout.


Accurate 45-240H (252 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.29” – 639 fps, 11,400 psi max.*
· Only one shot recorded a high enough pressure to measure on the strain gage

Accurate 45-260H (269 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.30” – 648 fps, 14 Sd, ES 42, 11,800 psi, ES 900 psi

Accurate 45-290H (295 grs., 10 BHN) .452”, OAL 1.298” – 672 fps, 11 Sd, 32 ES, 12,600 psi, ES 1100 psi

Expected velocity drop in 6” barrel revolver estimated -100 to 150 fps, depending upon cylinder gap.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the cigar. I got a cyber cigar from Bubba50 awhile back--couldn't taste anything. ;)

[justashooter]

I can't help you but if a guy is going to have a character flaw, that is a pretty cool one to have!
it's good to know I keep such fine company.