Win 300 Mag Armor Piercing Reloads Photos

[Rocket Man]

Are AP bullets legal to have?

Are they legal to target shoot?

I bought some AP full metal jackets about 30 years ago. They are jackets only with no lead inside. I fill them with lead myself. I have several sizes from 160 to 185 grain. I shot some AP bullets at several metal targets just to see what they would do. I used 160 grain bullets for all the targets.

The AP bullets will go right through 1/2" thick Hot Roll Steel and Cold Roll Steel real easy at 100 yards.

AP bullets go through 3/4" Hot Roll Steel. It almost will not go through 3/4" Cold Roll Steel the bulge on the back side of the metal is 3/16" high.

AP bullets will not go through 1" Hot Roll Steel or 1" Cold Roll Steel.

The photo shows what happens to Cold Roll Steel = CRS at 100 yards with a 160 grain bullet. The hole is 3/4" diameter 7/16" deep. The bulge on the back side of the 1" thick steel is only about 1/32" high.

At 400 yards the AP bullets go right through 1/4" and 3/8" Hot Roll Steel like nothing. The bullet is so fast it doesn't even shake the 1/4" thick steel plate 8" diameter I had it tied to a fence with a piece of wire. The hole in the 1/4" plate looks like someone drilled a 5/16" hole with an electric drill. I put 3 holes in the 1/4" plate and I though I missed it all 3 times the plate never moved.

I cut this piece out with a band saw then I used the milling machine to square up the sides. It makes a nice paper weight on my desk. This was done about 1983.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/mikeweaver/AP2.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/mikeweaver/AP3.jpg

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/mikeweaver/AP1.jpg

[zuke]

That would be a conversation piece alright!

[LuvMy1911]

I have no idea if AP rounds are legal... Maybe someone with more knowledge will offer their insight.

However, I like your paperweight! Very nice!

[Stampede]

This is what a 200 gr. AP 308 bullet (300 WIN MAG) on a Leopard tank fuel tube does (14mm thick wall). I tested this about 3 years ago. :-)

A clean hole in both sides.

I can reload these bullets but can't buy complete (Factory)rounds

Peter (Stampede)

[nicholst55]

Depends on 1) caliber, and 2) whether factory ammo or handloaded. Any cartridge that the ATF deems a "handgun" cartridge - big NO. You know, cartridges like .308 Winchester, 7.62X39, .223, etc. Cartridges like .30-06, 7.62X54R, 8X57, .303 are okay.

Factory loaded ammo is okay, but you can't load any, sell, give away, or trade.

Make sense? About as much sense as any of the ATF's other totally arbitrary rules.

[Rocket Man]

I did a web search and found this. http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html

According to the law AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo.

It also says,ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))

The term 'armor piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core not the loaded ammo.

There is nothing in the law that says you can not reload AP ammo into a different caliber bullet. The law deals totally with what AP AMMO is, who can manufacture and import it. The law says nothing at all about reloading.

[scb]

Are AP bullets legal to have?

Are they legal to target shoot?

I bought some AP full metal jackets about 30 years ago. They are jackets only with no lead inside. I fill them with lead myself.

I think, at least to my mind we are talking about 2 different things. What you are describing is a full metal jacketed bullet. All most all AP bullets I'm familiar with have a hardened metal penetrator.

[stubshaft]

+1 - All "black tips" I've shot have a tungsten penetrator core. The thing that defeats steel is velocity.

[phaessler]

+1 scb, most AP has some kind of hardened core, tungsten, carbide or the like... I crossed paths with some old 8mm AP, was serious stuff, and its not uncommon to make center punches out of pulled .50BMG AP bullet cores, really hard stuff in there.
Most FMJ rifle has lead cores ? Something in the Geneva Conv. perhaps?

[Rocket Man]

Read the defination of the law, it says AP ammo is Full Metal Jacket or Core.

The bullets I was shooting are full metal steel jackets copper plated on the outside with NO core inside. I dip them in Muratic acid for 30 seconds, then dip them in water stir around a few second, then heat them to remove the water, then brush in some flux, then fill them with lead.

I shot some 150 gr, 165 gr, 180 gr hunting loads at the same steel targets the bullet just splatter on the surface of the steel. It makes a very nice clean spot on the steel like is was polished but NO hole. Copper jacket lead bullets will not go through the steel.

[CWME]

Nice paperweight!

[scb]

Read the definition of the law, it says AP ammo is Full Metal Jacket or Core.

OK so you're more interested in the political definition than the real definition.




Copper jacket lead bullets will not go through the steel.

Really

This is a PAPPER jacketed boolit at 100 yds. .75" thick steel.

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/100_1039.jpg
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/100_1041.jpg

But I'm probably wrong as you obviously are "the" expert on the subject.

[phaessler]

Copper jacket lead bullets will not go through the steel.

Hmmm... I have in my time punched holes in steel , without the use of AP.

Some pics of a steel target at 100yds, punched clean thru at 50 and 75, shy by about 0.060" at 100yds though

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/DSC052662.jpg

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/DSC052651.jpg

And an article from Lyman cast Bullet Handbook #1 about the 429303 cast boolit, and steel plate penetration

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/chudson420393_2.jpg
If its not legible let me know I can email it...

[GabbyM]

Hot rolled 1018 mild steel isn't to hard to punch through. My 9mm load will go right through 1/4" plates of it. 5/16" plates are bulged with cracks on the back. You see steel targets sold made of AR-400. AR = abrasion resistance. That steel, and earlier AR-200, was developed on contract for the company I was working for at the time. We built asphalt road pavers and it’s used in screed bottom plates that drag along the mat. They have a short life even with the extreme abrasion resistance. You can push a piece against a grinder and watch the stone disappear while barely breaking the sharp edge of the steel.
AR-100 and AR-200 were used inside on the floor plates where the asphalt is conveyor over from the front hopper to the back. They are replaced often but unfortunately are worn thin by that time.

[41mag]

I want to play too....here's our 500yd target plate,

This was an assortment of factory 300 RUM ammo, some were Remington Premium bullets, and some were Sirocco's, and some I cannot remember. There is also a few handloads from my 25-06 and a couple from my 7 mag in there.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/512981161VaVvUs_ph.jpg

This one is after we got some loads worked up for our .270 Allen Magnums along with some 185gr Berger's from the 300 RUM
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/th_P4090025.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/?action=view&current=P4090025.jpg)

These ones ar from a 150gr .277 Nosler Solid Base fireform load which was truckin along at around 3450fps from my .270 AM.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/th_P1010002.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/?action=view&current=P1010002.jpg)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/th_P1010014.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/41nag/Shooting/?action=view&current=P1010014.jpg)

We tried a thinner piece of steel around 3/4" or so but it simply bent it beyond use after only a dozen or so rounds. This flange has enough substance to it, that it holds up pretty well. I have a bunch of pulled AP's that I would like to run out there with the RUM just to see how they would do, just haven't gotten around to it. I have to imagin that at around 3200fps they would rock it pretty good.

[Multigunner]

Strictly speaking an Armor Piercing bullet by today's use of the term would have a hardened steel core or at the very least a steel or other hard alloy penetrator at the tip over a lead core.

During WW2 several types of lead core bullets were developed to penetrate trench armor plates and loopholes. Some heavy nickel steel body armor was also in use but German and French machinegunners, so I expect these primitive AP bullets were also used against them.

Lead cores worked okay against thick plates of mild steel or thinner plates of Nickel Steel, so long as there was a glob of lead at the bullet tip, which somehow prevented the bullet from glancing off before taking a bite on the plate.
The germans also turned bullets base first to give a solid flat impact which meant that all the impact of the bullet would remain in the very narrow impact zone.
Lead bullets don't cut through steel, instead the bullet core is heated to incandesence by the rapid compression of impact, the heat is transfered to the steel directly and the now softened plug of steel is pushed through.
The hot plug of steel is what does damage on the other side, rather than the now liquified bullet.
The hardened steel core of .30-06 AP will hold together and exit intact after defeating over one foot of concrete, the jacket with lead filler will be stripped away or vaporized.

As metalurgy of armor improved face hardened armor became near impervious to lead core bullets. Three or more hits of M2 lead core ball within an inch or so could crack and push through gunshield armor up to 1/4 inch thick. One hit from an AP bullet would walk right through it.

Mild steel offers little protection from small arms fire, unless its a very thick plate.
A 1/4" mild steel plate with another identical plate set several inches behind it will stop an AP bullet better than a 1/2" steel plate. Once the bullet has passed through the first plate it will be unstable and not hit the second plate point on.

Anti-gun journalists consider lead core FMJ bullets to be armor piercing since the FMJ has a marginally greater likelyhood of penetrating police issue concealable soft body armor.
It has nothing to do with the ability to penetrate real armor plate.

[saltydog452]

The steel core will get the attention of a magnet. It is AP.

The steel jacket, washed with a copper copper coat and a lead core will get the attention of a magnet also.

W/O the penetrator, the FMJ isn't AP. So constructed, it should'nt be surprising that FMJ would, more likely, to hold together longer when compared with plastic tip or HP.

One was designed to defeat materiel, the other to reliably withstand auto/semi auto operation. Just a guess, but it do seem logical.

Kinda doubtful if either was intended to put Bambi on the table.

salty

[dougader]

Years ago a few of the guys bought FN-49 rifles (8mm Mauser) that were imported from Egypt. We also bought a few boxes of 198 grain berdan-primed, corrosive ammo (600 rounds per box). Those 198 grain BT bullets had a solid steel core.

We were out shooting and one of the guys had swinging plates that were 5/8" steel plate; don't know anything about hot rolled or cold rolled, but same as described above.... we kept shooting at these targets and they never moved. We thought we were missing, until we went up and checked the steel plate targets. Hot knife through butter, those plates didn't even twitch when hit.

[TomBulls]

That would be a conversation piece alright!

It would make a better ashtray! I'll bet you could sell those for AT LEAST 5.00 apiece at gun shows like the Indy 1500 (www.Indy1500.com).

[Blanket]

Many moons ago I shot highpower with at first a worked over 1903 and later M1 Garands. We used to trade the NM ammo that was issued for AP ammo that was common for matches as the AP actually shot better. GI AP was a screw machine turned hardened tungston steel core with a copper jacket. In otherwords a more consistant projectile than the 173 grain match bullet.....Russ ps didn't hurt that you could trade 3 or 4 for one which gave you more practice ammo.

[Adam10mm]

Armor piercing refers to handgun ammunition projectiles, not rifle.

[MtGun44]

Perhaps in your world, but the military has defined, priduced, issued and used armor piercing
ammunition for rifles since WW1, and it has never had anything to do with handgun ammunition.

I've heard the stories about how accurate black tip armor piercing .30-06 ammo is, so I bought
a quantity of bullets. The produced much, much worse group size of any other .30 cal bullet
I compared them to. The ones I got were 3 - 4 MOA capable bullets. They were nice looking,
no damage and I had high hopes for accurate shooting, but I couldn't find it.

Bill

[Adam10mm]

Perhaps in your world, but the military has defined, priduced, issued and used armor piercing
ammunition for rifles since WW1, and it has never had anything to do with handgun ammunition.

My post was in response to the question of legality. In the legal world, armor piercing ammunition is the handgun bullet projectile itself. Rifle AP is legal.

I'm well aware of the applications and general history of AP small arms ammunition.

[Rangefinder]

Typically, AP is a hardened steel core wrapped in a copper jacket. They're light, high-velocity, and don't deform. It's a whole nother animal than standard high-velocity FMJ bullets. My 6mm Remi can punch through 3/8 plate at 100yds. so clean it looks like it was done with a plasma cutter. As to the legalities of AP (real AP), check local laws, but for long guns they're usually legal. However, most ranges prohibit using them because they rip gongs to shreds.