Best Powder for reloading 223 LR bullets?

[BT Sniper]

Well I have a new 223 bolt gun coming my way and I expect to be testing some new 22cal bullets made from 22lr brass. Gun is a Savage 12BVSS 223rem and was wondering what loads you guys have had best luck with these bullets?

Gun has a 26" barrel! with 1-9 twist. I expect to start with bullets in the 55-65 grain range.

Anyone actually experienced decrease in accuracy when we push these bullets too fast? We have all heard about this so called 3200FPS limit with bullets made from the 22LR brass I'm but looking for some actual first hand load data.

Think I have read good things about Varget?? maybe like 25 grains or so? Anyone else have any first hand info? I have the "one book" reloading manual for the 223 rem so I can look up loads all day long but I'm looking for any recamendations, primer choice too if you care to share.

Thanks

BT

[357 Voodoo]

Brian i use varget and benchmark for the 223. IMOP bench mark excels for the lighter bullets IE 60 grn and under. with Varget about the max you can stuff in the case is around 24grn and it needs to be settled in to do so.

my loads are

40 grn 22.8 benchmark
55 grn 21.6 bmark
65 grn 23.6 varget
70 grn 22.2 varget

The 70 grn ts the largest that I have made. I shoot these in a 1-8 26in ar.

As allways work up

[MIBULLETS]

Brian, I have had better accuracy when I keep the velocity down aroun 3000 - 3100 fps when using bullets made from 22 cases. One load that my Winchester model 70 varmint likes was 25gr of H4895. It is not a hot load and provides around 3100 fps in my gun. It also has a 26" 1 in 9 twist barrel. For me Benchmark works better with loads at the top end and not as well with these bullets but excellent with my bullets made from J4 jackets. Every gun is it's own. Do you have a list of powders on hand or do you plan on buying some?

Dan

[BT Sniper]

I'll have to buy some so this helps me get an idea. All my experience is with the larger magnums so loading for the smaller 223 will be new and a nice change. It will be nice to load less then 70+ grains of powder.

I'll probably check around and buy a few lbs of what I can find then get a keg of what works best but still looking for and appericate the suggestions and info.

Thanks

BT

[DDriller]

Brian I load 24.5 gr Reloader 15 with 69 gr SMKs. Most accurate load I have found. 24.5 gr with the 55 gr bullet should be around 3060 fps. 24.0 should keep you under 3000 fps with a 55 gr bullet in your 26" barrel..

[Utah Shooter]

8208 XBR with 55 gr HP's for me. A bit over the 3200 fps but still hitting under .600 at max loads.

[BT Sniper]

Please help me differ from the data you all post as to which bullets may have been swaged from the 22lr brass vs. factory bullets. Thanks for providing the data for any and all 22 cal bullets and I'm sure it will only help all of us that will soon be shooting a lot more 223.

keep it coming

Good shooting

BT

[Bollocks]

For my 55-60 grainers (22LR jacket) I use moderate loads of Vithavuori N135 and Hodgdon H335. I Use 4 AR15 uppers (10, 16 and 20 inch barrels), a Steyr AUG and a SIG 550. Varget is a bit on the slow burning side for these bullet weights imho.

[Spanners]

4895 is better than Varget I've found and you can get enough in the case.
Light pills - BM works well also

[Rollis]

I, have not done any swaging yet, thats why I, been lerking around here trying to learn, so all my .223 loading has been done with factory bullet's. 2230, at around 25 grn. with the 55 grn. FMJBT has been an all round sweat spot for my two AR's. even with the Junk Remington's. 4895 both H, and IMR, and 3031, are the classic go to powders.

[mstarling]

For match accuracy ammo I find RL-15 does better than anything else. For almost as good bulk blasting stuff I have found AA2200 to be a great choice and have burned many pounds of it.

[BT Sniper]

How about mettering of the powders threw a powder dispenser. For those of use wanting to load thousands of cases. The 4895 and 3031, RL15 too I'm sure, is some larger stick powders aren't they? Not that there is anything wrong with that :lol:

I do plan on finding a good load then loading thousands via a powder throwing dispenser so opinons on mettering would help too I suppose.

Thanks for all the replies, this will certainly help me out and I'm sure severial others. Keep them coming :)

BT

[BT Sniper]

For match accuracy ammo I find RL-15 does better than anything else. For almost as good bulk blasting stuff I have found AA2200 to be a great choice and have burned many pounds of it.

I like the sound of RL-15, simply because it is avialble near me and I have used pounds of the RL-22 in my mags with good results, not that that makes any difference. I'll certainly look into all other options mentioned too.

So match grade? Sounds great. Just curious have you, or others for that matter, got what they consider match grade results from swage 22LR brass jacketed bullets?

BT

[jameslovesjammie]

I am in love with Ramshot X-Terminator for .223 and the 52 grain SMK. I doubt that you will find a better metering powder. It is ball but is so fine it's like metering sand in your powder measurer. With both a Redding 3BR and an OLD Lyman 55, the powder doesn't vary from drop to drop. 25.0 grains has done us well in a Remington 788 and Winchester M70 Featherweight (both 1-12 twist).

Ramshot's load guide lists data for 35-90 grain bullets with X-Terminator.

Try it. I think you'll like it!

[GRUMPA]

BT,
What's your version or for that matter anyones version of MATCH GRADE? Normally if I get 1/2' (rested) at 110yds I consider that doing pretty good.

[shooterg]

It'd be hard to go wrong with RE15 or Varget. Plenty of both pushing bullets downrange at High Power matches everywhere !

[BT Sniper]

Match grade for a .223?? With commercial bullets I would say one ragged hole-1/2". With swaged 22LR made bullets 1/2-1" sounds pretty good.

Your 1/2" groups sounds just fine to me. I'm looking for under 1 moa from the 22LR bullets I suppose.

BT

[sargenv]

If ytou want meterability, the ball powders are hard to beat... H335, BLC-2, or their surplus equivs (WC 844, WC846). Benchmark is a bit faster burning it seems, Accurate 2230 is liked by a lot of people as ar Varget, and several others.. I've used XMR2015 with regular 55 fmj bt's but it might be a tad on the fast side burn rate wise.. it tends to like the bullet 55 gr and less.

[martin]

BT,

When I was testing RF jacketed swaged bullets, I had some acceptable results from H4198 through my bench guns. I also tried some reduced loads with Blue Dot based on a couple of articles and could not get blue dot to shoot for beans...

My opinion is that if you ask 10 different people you will get 9 different answers as loading is a personal thing and there are so many choices available. I have 23 different powders in my powder cabinet :)

It is also my opinion that there are a lot of different variables in the works here and you won't know what is best until you do some testing.

In terms of primer selection, I would say to stay with Federal 205M's or CCI BR4's Match Grade Primers for stick powder and magnum primers for ball powders but some may disagree on the magnum primers.

My thought would be when you get this Savage 223, do some testing with copper jacketed stuff and prove the capabilities before moving onto RF jackets. If I were in your place, I would also go for the highest power optics that I could afford with a minimum of 24 power and preferrably 36 or 45.

This is my two cents.

Best Regards and good shooting.

Martin

[BT Sniper]

Martin,

YEP! Pretty much right in line with my thinking. Thanks for the info.

I have a New Sightron SIII with the MOA-2 retical in 6-24x50 to mount on the savage. I figure I'll use some 22LR bullets to break in the barrell and after about 50 shots I'll test gun's accuracy potential with some Nosler BT bullets. I have always thought of the nosler BTs as pretty accurate. Maybe the Seirra's for testing accuracy too. I think I have local access to either of those two in 22 cal.

BT

[Swede44mag]

I read someware it might have been Corbin's website that not to push the .22LR jacketed bullets as fast cause the jackets will be thinner and may not take the speed. (Turn to dust when the leave the barrel) if my memory serves me correctly.

I have been following your Die making process it is very interesting.

[tomme boy]

H322 works very well up to 55gr. Also uses less powder at the same time. Win 748 is another favorite.

One thing you might have a problem with is the barrel itself. Savage is not known to have a very smooth barrel. They do shoot good, but foul very bad. I would get some 52-53gr HPBT match bullets first to work up a good load to break in the barrel first. That way, you will have something to compare to. If it does not shoot the Sierras HPBT match then something is wrong. JMHO

[mnkyracer]

I use Benchmark in a Rem 799, Sierra 55 gr varmiters. Meters well for me with RCBS uniflow measure.

[Mountain Prepper]

I have been working with IMR 4198 and switched from Varget to a lower velocity load with IMR 4198.

I have never had a ‘full-house” max load in .223 that ever shot as well as medium to low has.

[Rollis]

The Dillon measure that I, use with 2230 has not been adjusted for two years, and it throw right at 25 grn. With my Lyman 55 I, will get a little bit of cutting with the stick powders, but the meter great.

[fishnbob]

I have found the Ball Powder, especially H-380 and BLC-2 to be very pressure sensitive in hot weather and somewhat so in cooler weather. I cannot begin to load near the manual's suggested maximum load data. Most times I am stuck around the suggested starting load especially in hot weather. 4198 works good for me and meters pretty good for a stick powder. After nearly 50 yrs. of reloading, I have come to the self-denied conclusion that consistent powder charges may not be the lone factor in accuracy on the paper!

[firefly1957]

I have had very good results with a wide range of bullet weights with IMR-3031 I have made some as light as 39 grs that shot about 2" groups at 100 yards when loaded at minimum (3200fps) at near max about 3600 they patterned on the paper instead of grouping. As a side experiment I loaded some 55 gr bullets that were shooting .75" 100 yard groups out of my Rossi Rifle(.223), in sabots with 30-06 at about 3300 they shot ok (3-4 inches) at 100 yds at around 4000 fps they shot two inch groups the same as my 180 hunting load and almost with the same point of impact? In the past This Rifle shot better I have it apart to rebed the action as accuracy fell off I have owned the rifle (30-06) since 1973. A note on the Rossi it has a very light barrel and will shoot quite well "IF" the barrel is supported the same with each shot. If you support the barrel in different places you can move your groups 6 inches at 100 yds with that thin barrel and break open action. different loads also shoot to different points of impact. The Rossi rifle has a 1 in 12 twist also.

[CWME]

I will second the comments on testing with Sierra 52-53 HPBTs. I have had two Savage barrels that were not very smooth from the factory. A 6.5-284 on my F-class that I had a hard time getting a patch down when it was brand new. That barrel would not shoot anything under an inch. I burned it up testing to find a load it would shoot.

Anyway, I love Savage rifles and am NOT trashing them. But the barrels can be hit or miss. And I mention it due to your thin jackets.

Mcgowen makes AWESOME pre fit barrels. I am currently working with a $200 small shank ER Shaw 14 twist 223 from MidwayUSA that is very impressive. This replaced the second factory barrel that was not a good shooter.

I have drifted from Varget to RE-15 to the ball powders and back to RE-15. I use RE-15 in all my match stuff now. Consistent, meters ok, great accuracy etc. No need to measure every charge with RE-15. 600 yard tests showed no variations in vertical from loads that were measured to loads that were thrown. Good powder!

The ball powders gave me a lot of vertical stringing at long range in multiple platforms. BLC-2 was the best of them during my tests. 2520 was not to bad.

Disclamer, I have not had the pleasure of making my own 22LR bullets yet. Was going to try Danr's set but the swage down deal lost me. Looking forward to you getting yours up to speed. Put me on your list of interested people.

[Grandpas50AE]

BT,
With that rifling you can easily shoot the heavier bullets and get really good results. I have used the rimfire jackets to make a 65 gr. 6-S spitzer that will shoot under inside a quarter at 100 yards, and if I change to the J-4 jackets it comes out to 69.5 gr. I have an RRA AR-15 with 1-9 twist, and it shoots those heavier bullets really well. I have used H322, AA2230, and BLC-2, and didn't really get consistent results over the chronograph with the AA2230. H322 worked very well, as does BLC-2. My brother has just started experimenting with Varget, so whenever he gets done playing with it I'll find out how he likes it and what his results are for you. If staying with the 55 gr. pillls, I have heard that Varget may not give the consistent results some of the other powders do, but do not know how true that is. For 55 gr. FMJ BT's I have gotten excellent results with BLC-2.

Hope this helps.

[BT Sniper]

Lots of good recamendations. I think I'll be leaning towards slightly heavier bullets with the LR brass. Heavy enough to completely fill the jacket. What ever weight that will be. Around 60-65 I imagine. I expect to get better results from a bullet I can apply a bit of pressure to while forming then a 55 grain hollow nose bullet. That's just my theory at the moment though.

Great thread, I look foward to more posts and some of my own soon.

Thanks

BT

[Shooter6br]

H322 with 50-55 grainers is good.

[firefly1957]

BT Sniper I think My dies are made by Pacific and they actually make a light bullet that shoots very well as long as I properly anneal the brass so it does not wrinkle at the point. My 2 .223's have a 1-12 and a 1-10 twist so they would not shoot well for me but a 70 gr bullet was about ideal for a softpoint. ( I am not using pure lead so with soft lead it would be heavier)

[dale2242]

Brian, I have shot 1000s of junkyard bullets made from 22rf cases. I bought 20k of the a few years ago to shoot sage rats.
I am shooting 26gr of 4895 with these bullets in the 50-55gr range because I have a 20# keg of it. Measuring is is not an issue because I use the Hownady Auto Charge.
If you are worried about metering go to a ball type or short grained stick powder......dale

[GRUMPA]

BT I really don't want to tell you what you may already know. But what the heck I'll do it anyway, twist rates vary as I hope most know. For a 55gr whatever the standard 1-9 to 1-10 twist is fine. The heavier they get the faster the twist rate needs to be in order to stabilize the projectile. I have 2 different types with one being 1-7 and the other is 1-9 twist rate. If I shoot anything over will say 68gr in the 1-9 twist rate at 100yds my patterns open up from 1/2in at 100yds to just over an inch. If I use the same dang boolit in the 1-7 twist barrel I can still keep real good accuracy at 100yds.

When you start doing field testing it's best to have a fast rate of twist to stabilize the projectile when different weights are used. Otherwise your going to wonder why group "A" shot well but when it came time to evaluate group "B" things aren't the same. And what powder is used is still important, your eliminating the margin of error when using a fast twist rate barrel.

[martin]

Grumpa and BT,

I believe what Grumpa is driving at is that twist rates play a critical role in determining which projectiles are best suited. I have found that the "Greenhill" formula provides a pretty good foundation as a starting point. If you look this up on the internet you will find a bunch of information and calculators which are a great help in explaining external ballistics and stabaliztion in terms of twist rates vs. physical bullet size.

Best regards,
Martin

[shooterg]

What Grumpa said. Especially in say 20" AR barrels. Some longer barrels in 1:9, 1:10 seem to be OK with 69 gr. or close j-words. My 1:7, 1:8 barrels are fine up to 80 gr. Have a 24" 1:9 that will shoot 52 g. Sierra up to 73 gr. Berger great, 75 gr. Hornady, 77 gr. Sierra change the group to a shotgun pattern ! Mw guess - 52 to 56 gr. of your flat based swaged bullets will be the best performers in your Savage.

[AF FAL]

I don't have any of my load notes with me, but IMR 8208 XBR pushing a 6o gr Vmax. 23gr will get around 3000FPS, and is a little shy of max load listings. That is commercial brass.

Working on getting the swaging set up still. I hear 22 mag/17HMR brass is supposed to be thicker, thought it may be worth cutting it down to use for faster .223 bullets from rimfire brass. I shoot 17HMR and can get 22mag brass from the range barrel by the bucket.

[algunjunkie]

25 grains of TAC with a 55gr bullet, rimfire or factory both shoot well.

[Hickory]

I have been making and shooting bullets made from 22 RF cases for nearly 30 years. And have used a wide variety of powders and the only consideration a person should keep in mind is velocity.

In rough barrels (Factory barrels) keep the velocity at or around 3200 fps and 3400 fps with a button rifled (Smooth) custom barrels.

[OneShotNeeded]

BT
Don't know if you've come up w/ a load yet but my savage ad my Ar's love 55g flat base bullet, w/ 27grns Varget and a 210m Match federal primer. 3/4 sub moa @100yrds. I don't swage RF jackets into bullets but have been looking at getting a set of Danr dies.... just waiting for the right moment.

[OneShotNeeded]

One other thing... I vaguely remember a thread that I believe you started explaining how to us a Harbourfreight cut off saw to trim cases... I've been trying to find that thread and can't. If you ave that link that would be great... if it wasn't you then disregard.

[thehouseproduct]

I'm at 26.1gr Varget with a 69gr SMK. Easily sub MOA even with "less than premium" AR15 builds. it's warm, but not extreme by any means in my gun.

[gunhaus]

For all of our commercial loading with cases that have roughly the case/bore ratio of the 223 we have largley switched to Ramshot TAC for bullets on the heavier end of the spectrum. The Ramshot x-terminato for those on the lighter side. These powders meter very well, but far more importantly they were engineered to be temp insensitive - Something that is largely not true with other ball type powders.

Over a thirty year span of shooting the RF jacketed slugs, I'd say there is no stand pat answer as to what they will take for rotational torque and velocity. I've had rifles with rough or worn bores that wouldn't give 3000 with out breaking bullets. AND I've pushed them to 3500+ with a 22 BR, and 3600+ When drawn down to 204 in a 20 BR. Core integrity is a big factor especially with a bit faster twist like the 1-9" Using something with 1/2 - 3/4% antimony to add a small measure of ridgidity will help as opposed to pure lead. In some ways they are a law unto themselves compared to say the commercial J4. How well they take an anneal, plays in. Brand to brand the temper of the case varies somewhat. But they are a bunch of fun, and can be pretty accurate when everything is clicking.
-John

[Maximumbob54]

The only way I can get Varget to measure out is by hand or with my Hornady Autocharge. None of my rotating drum type meters will drop with consistency. IMR 3031 was the same so I can assume this is true of any of the extruded or stick type powders. I like the spherical or ball powders since they flow so well. The only real claim to fame with Varget is that near lack of temperature to pressure sensitivity. IMHO, this is only needed when you are trying to max out your loads.

[Reload3006]

I like Tac but I am looking for a slower load for my .223 it doesnt like 55 gr bullets so that makes using my .224 Rimfire jacketed bullets a pain ... but my riflling is 1:9 so i think i may be able to get good results with a slow load... open for suggestions.

[Grandpas50AE]

I like Tac but I am looking for a slower load for my .223 it doesnt like 55 gr bullets so that makes using my .224 Rimfire jacketed bullets a pain ... but my riflling is 1:9 so i think i may be able to get good results with a slow load... open for suggestions.

Mine will marginally group 55 gr. bullets at 1:9 twist, anything lighter will give good shotgun patterns. Going up to 60+ gr. (69.5 is my heaviest so far) produces really excellent results. I have made and shot thousands of 22lr brass jacketed 223's and usually load in the moderate to upper-moderate load map, not pushing them too fast but getting plenty of velocity to do the job. Certainly, annealing the drawn jackets reduces the brittleness and allows a bit higher velocity without becoming frangible, but in .223 in the 60 - 70 gr. range it probably doesn't buy much other than penetration in hunting something larger than prairie-dogs. I have made bonded-core 65 gr. with them, and loaded them the same as the J-4 jacketed ones to hunt deer, and with the bonded cores even the deer didn't mess-up the bullet much. I'm currently running 26.0 gr. of BLC-2 and a CCI or Federal bench rest primer, but not getting anything better than 25.5 gr., so I've pretty much settled on that. Haven't had a chance to chrono them yet, but they really shoot good on paper.

[Reload3006]

using the green hill formula I think with my boolit form If i can find a load that runs around 2400 to 2500fps they may or at least in theory stabilize a little better.

[Grandpas50AE]

using the green hill formula I think with my boolit form If i can find a load that runs around 2400 to 2500fps they may or at least in theory stabilize a little better.

The Hodgdon website shows H4895 loads and has a special page for "reduced" loads of H4895 for the 55 gr. bullets in .223 Rem. The reduced page basicall says to take the regular load listing and multiply by 60% - but read the page before you do this. The regular listing indicates 2800 FPS, and the page for reduced loads indicates in the examples that a 500 fps drop in velocity can be achieved. This may help you. To be honest, the 55 gr. BLC-2 and H322 loadings in my RRA with 1:9 twist shoot pretty well, just not that last level of tight grouping the 60+ gr. do.

[MIBULLETS]

Normally, over-stabilizing a bullet is not a problem, only if it is under-stabilized. A 55gr bullet is not that much over stabilized in a 1:9 twist barrel. There must be something else going on. They shoot very accurately in my and others that I know.

[Grandpas50AE]

Normally, over-stabilizing a bullet is not a problem, only if it is under-stabilized. A 55gr bullet is not that much over stabilized in a 1:9 twist barrel. There must be something else going on. They shoot very accurately in my and others that I know.

I think that is why he was looking to reduce velocity a bit, but it could just as likely be the seating depth. I have not played with the 55 gr. too much since I get such good results from the 60+, but I would be willing to believe a little adjusting of the load/seating depth would produce very nice groups with 55 gr. with the normal load map recipes.

[MIBULLETS]

I think that is why he was looking to reduce velocity a bit, but it could just as likely be the seating depth. I have not played with the 55 gr. too much since I get such good results from the 60+, but I would be willing to believe a little adjusting of the load/seating depth would produce very nice groups with 55 gr. with the normal load map recipes.

I agree, the 22 rimfire bullets are a different animal and normally take a little tinkering to get the best results with them. Even then a consistant 1" @ 100 yds is doing very well with them, so don't expect them to shoot as well as other bullets in your gun.

[Reload3006]

y'all are exactly reading my thoughts if not my illiterate writing LOL. I have a savage M12 varminter in .223 it has a 1:9 twist barrel if you look at my thread Squished boolit porn or something like that you can see that It shoots 63 grainers great. I would be happy with 2" at 100 but cant even get that I may as well shoot my target with a shotgun. and its not just Rimfire jackeded boolits even hornady 55gr Amax shoot like that. now that I have invested a small fortune in swaging equipment not to mention stuff that I have made myself I would like to be able to shoot with reasonable accuracy. I have ran the greenhill formula (Corbins Version of it) and pretty much it tells me that i need to be driving that little guy at around 2500 fps. which sounds reasonable. I expect the rimfire boolits to be a little inaccurate I wouldnt expect them to shoot like the boolits I make with Sierra and Berger jackets. but I would be a happy camper if i could get 2" groups with them ... and I know the ground hogs tearing up my barn wont mind.

[OneShotNeeded]

y'all are exactly reading my thoughts if not my illiterate writing LOL. I have a savage M12 varminter in .223 it has a 1:9 twist barrel if you look at my thread Squished boolit porn or something like that you can see that It shoots 63 grainers great. I would be happy with 2" at 100 but cant even get that I may as well shoot my target with a shotgun. and its not just Rimfire jackeded boolits even hornady 55gr Amax shoot like that. now that I have invested a small fortune in swaging equipment not to mention stuff that I have made myself I would like to be able to shoot with reasonable accuracy. I have ran the greenhill formula (Corbins Version of it) and pretty much it tells me that i need to be driving that little guy at around 2500 fps. which sounds reasonable. I expect the rimfire boolits to be a little inaccurate I wouldnt expect them to shoot like the boolits I make with Sierra and Berger jackets. but I would be a happy camper if i could get 2" groups with them ... and I know the ground hogs tearing up my barn wont mind.

You're only getting 2" groups at 100? What powders and primers are you using? You ought to be able to get better groupings than that.

[Reload3006]

i have tried 3031 TAC Varget WW748 The rifle is over stabalizing the light bullets I was hoping someone had a slower load in the 2500fps range I would like to try it. I get sub moa with 60+ grain bullets.

[Grandpas50AE]

Did you look at the Hodgdon load data I referred to? It may give you the velocities you are looking for.
Also, are you swaging the cores to a uniform weight and dimension? Are your bullets uniformly formed in the point forming die? Have you adjusted your powder charges a few tenths up or down and adjusted the seating depth? The seating depth can play a large part in tightening up that group size. The 55 gr. bullets I have shot have all produced groups of just over an inch at 100 yards (peep sights).
According to some articles I've read, and what I've seen in the load maps, Varget works better with the heavier bullets in a given caliber, and I didn't have much luck with WW748 as far as accuracy went. BLC-2 and H322 have produced well, as I've also seen several reloading posts with other powders that do well also.

[Reload3006]

Yes I did and looks like imr 4320 will get me the closest in the starting load I am wondering if i back off the start by a couple grains if that will get me down there where I need to be?
55 GR. SFIRE IMR IMR 4320 .224" 2.220" 23.0 2796

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

RL-15, IMR 4895, Ramshot TAC. 25 grains +- of these will shoot 1 hole from a Shilen Barrel on a Remington 40X action in a McMillan stock with any one of several custom bullets. Nosler BT 60 gr or 55 gr shoot almost as well. Hornandy 60 gr V-Max bullets also shoot very well. Any of these will probably shoot your 22 LR home brewed guys really well.