38/357 Lee powder through expander in 9mm die mod [Archive]

Jailer

08-10-2011, 10:26 PM

EDIT: Thanks to another forum member (sorry but I don't remember who) there is an easier, inexpensive way to achive the same result. See the link below for the information or continue on with the thread for the reasoning behind this mod.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124464-38-357-Lee-powder-through-expander-in-9mm-die-mod&p=1774406&viewfull=1#post1774406

Original thread:

I've been fighting with leading in my 9mm for a while now so I finally decided to pull a couple rounds and see what they measured after they were seated. I found my best luck was sizing them to .358 and it was working OK but I was still getting some leading. I pulled a couple and they measured .355. Ok, so there is my problem, now how do I fix it.

The expander spud on Lee's 9mm die is really short and measured .353 in diameter. I checked my 38/357 expander and it measured .356 and is much longer. Sooooo, the marbles started rolling around in my head trying to figure out a way to use the 38 expander in the 9mm die. The problem is they are quite different in shape and size. I started taking some measurements and they both have an interior shoulder that sits .430 below the top of the expander that activates the powder measure but the overall length is quite different. So I figure I need an insert to activate the powder measure. Well the insert in Lee's powder measure riser is a perfect match for this.

I took some measurements and the body on the 9mm expander is 1.197 in length. The body of the 38 expander is .663 in length so I need to make up the difference of .534.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/9mmexpandersize.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/38-357expandersize.jpg

The difference in length needs to be made up in two different ways. One internally for the powder measure and one externally for the expander.

To make up the difference for the activation of the powder measure, I trimmed the riser insert by cutting it off with a dremmel and finishing it with a file to a length of .734. For the powder measure to work correctly the difference has to be made up on the interior where the powder measure tube rests on the shoulder of the insert. The shoulder sits .200 down from the top of the insert so that has to be added to the overall dimension.

For the exterior all I had laying around was some 1/2 inch PVC. The OD of the expanders is a little bit smaller than the OD of the PVC so I had to take it down a bit so it would work. Just my luck 1/2" PVC fits perfectly in a possom hollow trimmer.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/possomhollow.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/expanderdiameter.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/PVCdiameter.jpg

Once I got it sanded down I cut it to length and mocked it all up. It took a few adjustments on the length of the PVC shim but once I got it, everything worked perfectly. I seated a few boolits and they are pulled the same diameter that they were before they were seated and it works the powder measure when expanding the brass.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/explodedview.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/expanders1.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/expanders.jpg

noylj

08-11-2011, 07:11 AM

That's a lot of work. Are you taking custom orders?
For lead bullets, I measure the case ID after expansion. If it is more than 0.002" smaller than the bullet diameter, I know I need a larger expander. I play with the Lee 9mm, .38 super, .38 special, and 9mm MAK expanders.
I would like all expander to be close to same length and the length of the bullet seated in the case.
Sometimes, I simply use a Lyman M-die and use the PTE die as simply a powder funnel and activator for the measure.

milprileb

08-11-2011, 09:19 AM

You probably hit the solution to the problem when using a Lee expander powder thru die set up but I think a M die probably will be the novice (me) approach to same solution. I don't mind the extra step in the reloading process although its a PITA.

I have the same issues with 9mm bullets getting swaged down when bullet seating. I think
there is just so much that will work with the 9mm to obtain optimum cast bullet accuracy and then its a zero sum game. Its a tapered case unlike the straight walled 45acp case and that does not help. One does not see alot of match grade 9mm pistols vs 45acp pistols and I think its the limitations of that tapered case which degrades 9mm from being as accurate as a 45acp or 38 super can be. Just my two cents. Yes, I am still trying to chase .358 sizing and make it work as my bore is .357. I may finally get it all sorted out but I doubt 9mm will ever shoot as accurate as 45acp with cast bullets.

If proven wrong... I hope I prove it wrong myself and can enjoy the accuracy.

deltaenterprizes

08-11-2011, 09:45 AM

[QUOTE=milprileb;1361796 One does not see alot of match grade 9mm pistols
[/QUOTE]

Many IPSC/USPSA shooters shoot 9mm guns and have abandoned 38 Super because of the plentiful 9mm brass. S&W has a 952 that is a Model 52 chambered in 9mm as a production gun. I shot a 9mm match 1911 at steel plate match every Fri night for years because of the low recoil and it was very accurate.

Jailer

08-11-2011, 09:59 AM

I did this so I could continue to use the powder through expander die in my Classic Turret press and keep the seating and crimping operations separate. If you have a press with 5 stations such as a progressive then yes the M die would be an easier solution.

This fix for me was done cheap with parts I had available to me that I could work with. The alternative would be to have a custom insert made or get a progressive press. Both options would have cost me money. This was done with a $3 part.

lts70

08-11-2011, 10:26 AM

As a beginner this is one aspect I had not even considered. To think all of the effort of casting and sizing to the right diameter for the guns barrel diameter can be for nothing if your reloading dies swage it down to too small of a diameter.

I have Lee carbide die sets for my 9mm, 38 special, and 45acp. Do most Lee sets have this problem? I am just using the challenger single stage press, if my dies are having the same problem what would be the best solution? I guess I will need to buy a bullet puller and check things out.

Jailer

08-11-2011, 10:37 AM

I guess I will need to buy a bullet puller and check things out.

You've got to take the first step and figure out where you are before you can answer any of the other questions you have.

Echo

08-11-2011, 10:48 AM

Dang good thread.

fecmech

08-11-2011, 09:37 PM

I am just using the challenger single stage press, if my dies are having the same problem what would be the best solution? I guess I will need to buy a bullet puller and check things out.

If your dies are causing the problem one solution would be the purchase of a Lyman "M" die to use as your expander. You would only need 1 die and can buy extra expander plugs for different calibers for a couple bucks each from Lyman.

Jailer

08-11-2011, 10:27 PM

If your dies are causing the problem one solution would be the purchase of a Lyman "M" die to use as your expander. You would only need 1 die and can buy extra expander plugs for different calibers for a couple bucks each from Lyman.

Thing is I use a Lee Classic Turret press and I wanted to keep the powder through expander so I could seat and crimp in separate steps. The Classic Turret only has 4 holes so if I use an M die I'd have to expand in one step then drop powder in the next and give up a separate crimp operation. This mod allows me to expand and drop powder in one step.

If I had a progressive press and more stations then the M die would be a no brainer.

MikeS

08-12-2011, 09:05 AM

Another solution rather than using a Lyman M die would be to get the Lyman Multi-Expand Powder Charge die. Basically it's a die that comes with M style expander inserts in 32, 38, 41, 44, and 45 sizes, but they're hollow, and the top of the die is threaded with the standard 7/8-14 thread so you can screw on a powder measure. I use it with a Lyman Accumeasure, and while it's not automatic, it is a nice setup. I believe there are also expanders for 9mm as well, I don't recall offhand. I use the 32 expander for reloading my 30 caliber rifles, so I can use this die for all my reloading needs. I bought mine used, and also had some of the expanders (without the body) that I got in a lot of stuff I bought a while ago, but I think new they sell for around $35.00 or so, and come with most of the expanders 'normally' used. The advantages of an M die, the powder thru capability of the Lee expanders, what more could you ask for? Well, I guess a way to automatically activate the powder measure, but who's being picky? :)

rintinglen

08-12-2011, 09:12 PM

Another thought would be to order the expander plug from Lee for a9x18 Makarov sizer. It would be over size, but nothing some fine sand paper wouldn't cure, and then you'd not have to worry about the PVC compressing or cracking over time.

Sapper771

08-21-2011, 07:35 PM

I experimented with my Lee powder through expander back when I was having case swage issues with 9mm. My modification was similar to yours, except you put more detail into yours. I just dropped a bushing on top of the expander plug to keep it from floating up and down. It worked pretty good. I dont use it anymore because I got a 38 spl M die. Back then, I stated that the 38spl M die expander plug was too long for 9mm. I was incorrect. After I sat down with my friend, we discovered that it wasnt the length that was the problem, it was the taper. He altered the taper to look like the taper of the 9mm M die plug. It works like a charm now.

Bullet Caster

11-26-2011, 05:17 PM

I can see from this thread and the posts that I'm going to have problems with my Lee 9mm carbide dies swaging down the seated boolit. So what would be the least expensive way to get my boolits from swaging down to the .353 size reported? Will the 9x18 Makarov expander plug from Lee fit the 9mm carbide die set? As soon as I get my calipers I will make up a dummy round and check to see what the final dia. is on the seated boolit after I pull it. If everything goes as mentioned in the thread, I will have the problem solved before I even reload one round. Also I'm going to slug my bore and see just what dia. the grooves are. Thanks. BC

prickett

11-26-2011, 10:25 PM

I too am interested in the answer. Would the .38 Super expander work? (or get you closer than either the .38 Special or Makarov?

prickett

11-29-2011, 11:46 PM

sabrecross03

11-30-2011, 12:31 PM

I use my Lee 38 cal dies (Minus the 38 cal powder-through-die. I use my 9mm powder-through-die) to load my 9mm cases with Lee TL .358-105 SWC bullets. Before, (with my 9mm dies) I would get a ridiculous amount of leading...With the 38 dies, I now get trace amounts of leading.

30yrcaster

11-30-2011, 02:14 PM

The more I think of this, the more confused I get. Seems like if I were to use a .38/.357 plug in my Lee 9mm expander/powder drop die, all that would do is to bell the mouth larger, NOT expand deep into the case (i.e. .25" to .50"), preventing swaging from occurring. Am I thinking correctly?
Neither.
The 38 special plug is shorter than the 9mm. You need some type of spacer to push it down further in the 9mm die body. The plug dia is 9/16" and I can't find any rod or tubing that size to make a spacer. No access to a lathe either.

I've heard the 38 S&W plug #1699 may be the ticket. It's a bit longer but longer is ok, shorter won't work. The 38 S&W is supposed to be .360 but nobody makes commercial bullets for this and it's a cowboy action caliber so much of the equipment out there is for .358 bullets, just what we need for these oversized 9mm barrels.

prickett

11-30-2011, 08:50 PM

Neither.
The 38 special plug is shorter than the 9mm. You need some type of spacer to push it down further in the 9mm die body. The plug dia is 9/16" and I can't find any rod or tubing that size to make a spacer. No access to a lathe either.

I've heard the 38 S&W plug #1699 may be the ticket. It's a bit longer but longer is ok, shorter won't work. The 38 S&W is supposed to be .360 but nobody makes commercial bullets for this and it's a cowboy action caliber so much of the equipment out there is for .358 bullets, just what we need for these oversized 9mm barrels.

I realize the plug is shorter, but the plug is only designed to bell the mouth, not expand the case to a depth suitable to seat the entire bullet (if my understanding of the expander die is correct). The Lyman M die is designed to actually expand to the depth of the seated bullet (again, if my understanding is correct).

My question is was - based on the OP's rigging up of an oversized expander, whether it would actually expand the portion of the case in which the bullet sits, or just expand the mouth a little more.

I'll be interested to see if you make any progress on the .360/.358 dies though as it sounds like a possible solution.

Jailer

11-30-2011, 10:24 PM

If you look closely at the expander insert of the 2 dies that I posted above you'll see that the expander portion of the 38/357 die is quite a bit longer than the 9mm expander. But the overall length of the insert is much shorter. That's where the PVC spacer comes into play.

There are two contact points that make the powder through expander dies work. The inner contact point activates the powder measure and the outer contact point limits the expander insert travel to expand and bell the brass.

The insert floats inside the die body. When you raise the brass up into the die the insert raises with it until the innner portion contacts the bottom of the powder measure delivery tube. It then continues upward activating the powder drop until the outer portion of the insert contacts the threaded portion of the powder measure body and stops. As the brass continues to get pushed up by the ram it pushes it over the expander portion of the insert expanding and belling the brass.

If you run a 9mm brass up a 38/357 die it will never bottom out the insert since 9mm brass is shorter than 38 or 357 brass. That's why you have to add the spacers. If you just added one to the outer diameter it would expand the brass but it wouldn't activate the powder measure.

I'm not the best at explaining things so I hope that helped clear it up for you. If not maybe someone else will come along and explain it better than I can.

Bullet Caster

11-30-2011, 11:10 PM

Personally I'm not interested in activating a powder measure because I use only a single stage press. So you're saying that I just need to add the .38/.357 expander into my 9mm die? Thanks BC

Jailer

11-30-2011, 11:24 PM

Personally I'm not interested in activating a powder measure because I use only a single stage press. So you're saying that I just need to add the .38/.357 expander into my 9mm die? Thanks BC

No. Add a spacer the same OD as the insert (like the PVC one I did) along with the 38/357 expander and it will work. Just the insert alone is too short.

You can make the spacer out of whatever you want. PVC is just what I had on hand that was close so that's what I used.

30yrcaster

12-01-2011, 08:18 AM

No. Add a spacer the same OD as the insert (like the PVC one I did) along with the 38/357 expander and it will work. Just the insert alone is too short.

You can make the spacer out of whatever you want. PVC is just what I had on hand that was close so that's what I used.

When the powder drops, does any of it get hung up on the PVC spacer or did you bevel it somehow?

MT Gianni

12-01-2011, 11:33 AM

I thought enough of this to sticky it.

Jailer

12-01-2011, 08:39 PM

When the powder drops, does any of it get hung up on the PVC spacer or did you bevel it somehow?

Nope. The powder drops through the delivery tube in the center of the measure. The outer body stays put since it's screwed into the die and the delivery tube rises and falls with the die insert. It's in constant contact with the inner portion of the insert as the ram is raised and the powder drops right through. The PVC spacer is just to make up the difference in OAL of the outer diameter of the insert to stop it's travel so it will expand the brass.

Without the inner spacer the brass would get expanded but the powder measure wouldn't work. Without the outer spacer the powder measure would work but the insert would keep traveling upwards until the ram topped out and not expand the brass.

This could be done a lot nicer by someone with the actual tools to make the parts. I just did it this way since that's what I could scrounge up in my garage to make it work.

Jailer

12-01-2011, 08:39 PM

I thought enough of this to sticky it.

Heh, noob gets a sticky. :grin:

Tomuchiron

12-25-2011, 11:00 AM

Great thread. I thought 9,s were just junk compared to my .45's. just not there for accuracy. I slugged the barrels with unfired cast bullets. looked good. had a squib last week. bullet pushed out easily with very little ,shallow rifiling cuts, Now it all makes sense.

Christorbust

01-15-2012, 08:24 PM

I'm working on this now... I had to come back to get your measurements.

I don't have PVC hanging around, but I do have old brass. ATM it appears 40 cal will work perfect for the inner diameter, and 45 for the outer spacer.... fingers crossed.

I'll be back...

Christorbust

01-15-2012, 10:13 PM

Well I didn't fail, but I did learn about 12 new ways to NOT make a spacer out of a 45 case :)

Jailer

01-16-2012, 09:20 PM

Yeah, I dare say your going to have to use something a little stronger. I'm sure it crushed the brass the first time you tried it. Keep trying you'll find something that works.

I've used different variations of this to adjust the throw distance on my powder measures with other Lee die sets too. With some of the larger disks in the powder measure if they don't travel far enough out it will leave a little bit of powder at the edge of the drop hole. Take a little bit off the top of the expander plug with a file and it increases the travel and pushes all the powder over past the edge of the drop hole.

It's amazing how consistent these powder measures get when they throw the entire charge in the hole every time. :D

Christorbust

01-16-2012, 10:22 PM

If the 45 case had been a "46" or so it seems like it would have worked. It was a little too narrow to allow the powder tube to fit through it, so it would bind up on it and yes, crumple.

The 40 case worked well for making up the inner diameter spacer.

DanM

01-24-2012, 05:18 PM

I ran into this problem loading fat .358" boolits into 9x19 cases with my Loadmaster. My BHP shoots best with .358" boolits, and my Lee 9mm case expander on the Loadmaster would not give enough flair to the mouth for seating my boolits without shaving lead. If I turned the powder measure down far enough for usable flair it would cause timing problems with the shell plate. My solution used 1/4" lock washers instead of pvc. Flatten them out and spread them to nearly the same ID as the drop tube. Stack three of the modified washers on top of the expander insert, and that extended it down far enough to flair the cases for the larger boolits without messing with the timing of the Loadmaster.
Changing to .358" boolits in the BHP was a real eye opener for me. Group sizes were cut in half, and leading just went away.

crashguy

01-26-2012, 10:33 PM

Jailer

01-26-2012, 11:29 PM

It seems I have fallen victim to the 9mm case swage syndrome. Some data - storm lake barrel slugged .355, Lee 124 truncated cone sized .356 from range lead pushed with 700x at less than 1000fps (lower velocities grouped better than higher). pulled boolits measured .353 at the base.
I have attempted the described remedy with some success as it appears my Lee .38 expander does not extend far enough down the case for the boolit being used. My question is - how should I address the flair on the case rim and is the boolit meant to stay in place by case tension alone or is some type of crimp applied? Also would an 'M' die in .357 be longer and just make this process a whole lot easier?

The expander portion of the 38 insert is more than long enough to prevent swaging. If it's not going deep enough into the case then you need a thicker spacer on the top of the outer diameter of the expander. A thicker spacer will make it bottom out sooner and push it into the 9mm case further. You may run into case tension issues (lack of) trying to run a boolit sized to .356 using a 38 expander.

I use a taper crimp die to remove the flare on the case rim. You can use an M die to get the same effect on the case but you won't be able to use the powder measure with your expander. This mod retains the powder through expander so you can expand the case mouth and drop powder in the same step.

Jailer

01-26-2012, 11:35 PM

crashguy

01-27-2012, 01:36 AM

Jailer- thanks for the info and response . Well I guess operator error could be the problem , I will get back to the drawing board on this, I'm determined to correct this issue. I should have noted I do not use the powder through feature so that's a non-issue , one less thing. Just one more thing.
What taper crimp die do you use to remove the flare ? the 9mm die or the 38 die?

Jailer

01-27-2012, 02:02 PM

prs

01-30-2012, 12:01 AM

I am using M die in a 5 die press. I set the M die tojust a bit over boolit depth in the case, but to "bell" or step less than I desire. Then I let the powder thrugh die do the bell. This lets the powder through die continue to grab onto the case a bit and to give a little jerk onto the powder measure upon withdrawl so that the powder is settled for the next round. As always, the least amount of belling that will serve to set the boolit is best. I have a 45/70 powder through die insert I was gonna mill down to fit my .454s, but I came across a set of RCBS cowboy dies with a .454 appropriate lead boolit expander, so I never followed through with the project.

prs

Shiloh

02-03-2012, 06:53 PM

Very well done. Your pictures are great and makes for a great explanation. :drinks:

Shiloh

Jailer

02-12-2012, 10:41 PM

Sorry Shiloh I just say your reply today, thanks for the kind words.

I'm not the best at explaining things in written form so I try to make up for that with lots of pictures. :D

grantr

02-23-2012, 10:08 PM

I have the Lee 4 die set. I see the 3rd seating die can be screwed down to crimp the bullet. I wish i had know that before buying the 4 die sets. I didn’t know the factory crimp would cause problems with cast boolits!

I hope I set the sizing die correctly.

The way I initially set this die: I used a empty piece of brass and screwed the die down until I couldn't turn it by hand any more. Then i removed the brass and gave the die another 1/4 turn. Then I put a factory load in the die and screwed the seating part of the die down until it touched the facotry rounds bullet.

The rounds look to be crimped.

I sized my rounds a bit longer than 9mm specs. They fit the mags on both guns fine and chamber in both. They are 1.1875 long with 125 gr round nose. I figured the closer to the rifling the less gas blow by!

It is weird that mt XD 45 will not chamber full length 230 gr cast 45s. I had to make them shorter than 230 gr FMj ball ammo. The gun would not go into battery. The case was protruding past the end of the barrel where the base of the boolit is supposed to be flush. The FMJ has a more pointed profile than the cast round.

grantr

02-23-2012, 10:48 PM

Geez wrong thread I posted in!

The Amateur

03-06-2012, 10:51 PM

My wife and I went to the range this weekend and her 9mm, "Tinkerbell" had some leading.[smilie=b: I searched the forums and found this thread. Great info:!:

Here is what I did to make my 9mm expander die work for Lee TL-358-124-2R:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_179174f56c9136522c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4301)

I turned the expander on my lathe to bring the shoulder back to 1/2".
Next, I removed the case mouth expander taper and used this area for the new.358" dia. expander area.
Behind that, I made a new taper at 5 degrees. I made this area long for experimentation.
To make up the extra 1/4", I made a brass spacer .25" tall and .56" dia.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_179174f56cb70cd518.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4302)
A boolit was "loaded" and pulled to check for case swaging. It measured .358", no change from inserting into the expanded case!http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_179174f56cb9053021.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=4303)

I will need to load some new rounds and test at the range. I will report back.:grin:

Jailer

03-07-2012, 12:07 AM

Well you screen name belies your ability, nice work!

The Amateur

03-07-2012, 12:43 AM

Thanks! I was afraid my wife would beat me up if it went wrong. I had to get the lathe to support all of my hobbies.
I couldn't think of anything good for a name and that was the first thing that popped into my head. I'm somewhat new to reloading and I'm also an amateur radio operator.

sig2009

03-28-2012, 07:30 PM

I tried using the 38/357 powder funnel to bell case mouth on the 9mm cases on a Dillon 550 to prevent the lead from swaging as it is being seated. Unfortunately by the time the die is screwed down far enough for the powder funnel to bell the case it is already sitting on the shell plate. So that does not work! I don't know who ever came up with that idea!

autopilotmp

03-29-2012, 08:03 PM

So I am curious, do you need both the 9mm die and the 38 die or can you do the mods and use the 38 die body? Probably be cheaper to buy the 3 die set but just wondering if you even needed the 9mm powder charge die.

Jailer

03-29-2012, 09:09 PM

You'll want to use the 9mm die body so the insert will have the proper amount of travel to flare the 9mm brass. If you use the 38 die body the brass will never reach the insert to flair the case.

Just use your 9mm die body and order a 38 insert from Lee. No need to buy an entire set of dies when all you need is the 38 powder through insert.

autopilotmp

03-29-2012, 10:04 PM

Thanks Jailer i'll have to pick up the riser as well. Great thread.

Jailer

03-29-2012, 10:43 PM

No problem, thanks for the compliment.

You'll definitely want the riser if you are using a turret press.

fullofdays

04-19-2012, 10:05 AM

will the lee powder thru expander die work on a dillon 550b? what's the part number?

Jailer

04-24-2012, 04:54 PM

They will work just fine. They are caliber specific except for the rifle charging die.

greyling22

06-26-2012, 06:00 PM

I didn't have a possum hollow trimmer, so I wrapped a couple layers of electrical tape around a 15/32 drill bit and slid the PVC over that. worked pretty well.

The Amateur

06-29-2012, 02:54 PM

Here is a plug I made from scratch. Testing is in progress...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/179174ffde9c922ba1.jpg

The only scrap metal I had was 1/2" round bar so I used some heat shrink to make up the O.D.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/179174fedf85e1e668.jpg
.358" seating dia .25" long, 7.5deg case mouth bevel, 10deg end bevel. Polished to 800 grit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/179174fedf83c5de9f.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/179174fedf83c2c1cb.jpg
Drilled powder via with a step drill. A reamer would have been better for an edgeless funnel.
(I don't have one).

The Amateur

07-12-2012, 05:29 AM

The print is a little different then what is pictured below it and was added later for revision.
The seating area was a tad too long in the prototype. The mouth expander taper should have been a little longer and perhaps < 5deg. not 7.5deg.
These aspects of the prototype caused some minor brass stress.
A bulge in the brass is to be expected with this plug as it removes the designed tapered body of the brass within the seating area.
Otherwise, no case swaging of the cast boolit with this plug!

Reduced barrel leading and improved accuracy is realized with this 9mm plug vs. the Lee plug when loading cast boolits. :lovebooli

FergusonTO35

07-12-2012, 11:29 AM

He speaks truth. I received one of the prototypes and its great!

Jailer

07-12-2012, 04:38 PM

Just wanted to post an update to this thread.

Another member on this forum suggested a 38 S&W expander as an alternative. I got one and it is a direct drop in replacement for the 9mm powder through expander plug. The expander portion is the exact same dimensions as the 38/357 expander and it works fantastic for seating 9mm boolits.

Hey, why re invent the wheel when a simple alternative is available for 3 bucks?

Lee 38 S&W powder through expander plug (http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html)

The Amateur

07-13-2012, 12:46 AM

Huda thunkit. Thanks for the update, i'll have to get one.

FergusonTO35

07-17-2012, 11:21 AM

Rock on!! Nonetheless your original prototype is really nice.

huntnman

07-20-2012, 12:26 AM

Just getting serious on loading 9mm, great info.Thank's

FergusonTO35

07-20-2012, 10:09 PM

Recently I had some trouble expanding some once fired .32 Auto brass with the Lee flare die. The bottom of the expander plug would catch the edge of the case mouth and peel it down like a banana. The remedy was simple, create a taper on the bottom of the expander plug so that the plug would guide itself in to the case mouth without catching. I just used my bench grinder to do this and now it works great. I'll likely try the same thing with my 9X19 flare die.

FergusonTO35

07-21-2012, 10:32 PM

Another thing to think about. When using .357 or 358 boolits in 9mm, it seems unnecessary to resize to the same spec as if you are using .355 j-word bullets. Reason being that you are then going to stretch the case back out flaring it for the larger diameter cast boolit. I wonder if it would work better to use a .38 Special resizing die for your cast boolit loads?

noylj

07-22-2012, 09:16 AM

FergusonTO35: The 9x19 is a very tapered case. The use of a .38 Special sizing die, unless used only over about 1/3 of the case, would damage the case. The few thousandths of an inch difference in bullet size is really not an issue.

FergusonTO35

07-22-2012, 07:30 PM

So, do you mean that the resizing die will damage it or subsequent operations?

noylj

07-23-2012, 10:18 AM

Look at the case drawings.
The .38 Special case has an OD of 0.379" at the case mouth and an OD of 0.379" just in front of the extractor groove/rim.
The 9x19 case has an OD of 0.380" at the case mouth and an OD of 0.391" just in front of the extractor groove.
If you full length size a 9x19 case with a .38 special die, you will be attempting to squeeze the web area of the case down from 0.391 to 0.379". Something tells me that this will 1) be difficult with out case lube and 2) will not be good for the case.

FergusonTO35

07-23-2012, 10:34 AM

Thanks, I wasn't thinking about that!

cptkeybrd

07-25-2012, 11:52 PM

Thanks to Jailer and everyone else, I just started reloading 9mm and noticed that problem, great timing to find this now. I have done some switching around with Lee stuff before and it can work for you as this did. I just ordered mine. Saved me lots of guess work and don't want to lead up my new pistol.
Cheers

4719dave

07-27-2012, 10:29 PM

okay was going to fire up the dillon 650 for some cast boolits mihas 9mm 125gr .looks like i got to get some stuff oh no more reloading stuff AGAIN LOL

4719dave

07-28-2012, 12:30 PM

well that worked pu a set of those dies with the expander included CHEAP on arf com site ,off to lee for the new expander .looks like miha's 9mm mold will see some lead on sunday thanks guys
Just wanted to post an update to this thread.

Another member on this forum suggested a 38 S&W expander as an alternative. I got one and it is a direct drop in replacement for the 9mm powder through expander plug. The expander portion is the exact same dimensions as the 38/357 expander and it works fantastic for seating 9mm boolits.

Hey, why re invent the wheel when a simple alternative is available for 3 bucks?

Lee 38 S&W powder through expander plug (http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html)

FergusonTO35

08-02-2012, 11:31 AM

I loaded some 9X19 last night with the standard Lee expander plug and my new Pro Auto Disk measure. Whats strange is, with the Auto Disk on top of the die it flares as effortlessly as my .38 Special. Normally you can feel the expander plug being shoved into the case mouth and it pulling it out requires alot of effort and shakes the whole workbench. Just to make sure I wasn't imagining things I adjusted the die in until it contacted the shell holder for maximum flaring and it still worked great. Anyone else notice this before? Mebbe the reloading fairy paid me a visit?

noylj

08-03-2012, 01:26 AM

FergusonTO35:
You may have enough powder ash in the case interior to act as a lube.
A little light spray lube (not Hornady One Shot or other very viscous lube) in the case (and allowed to dry) works well. Some dip the case mouth into graphite powder.
You may have an expander plug that is fairly smooth (some are so rough they look like they are threaded).
Did you forget to size your cases?
Have you considered buying Lotto tickets?

Wal'

08-05-2012, 12:02 PM

cptkeybrd

08-05-2012, 12:42 PM

http://leeprecision.com/pm-expan-plg-38-s-w.html

use this expander in the Lee powder thru expander die and problem solved for 6 bucks
I just loaded and shot 200 rounds using .357 boolits. worlks great, thanks to all
read back a little further

Jailer

08-05-2012, 04:36 PM

Started reading this thread & thought great this will fix my suspected swaginging of my 9mm boolits when loading.

Went to Brownells website & ordered their Lyman .38 neck M expanding die, then read on to noylj # 65 post where he pointed out that the .38 M die would swage the 9mm case down, ugh...!!!

My question is, if I also get the 9mm M die is it possible to swap the expander plug over between the two ?????? anyone tried it ???????

If you are talking about swapping the expander plug between the Lyman die and the Lee die the answer is no. They are 2 completely different designs.

There are many ways to properly expand 9mm brass to prevent swaging of lead boolits when seating them. The purpose of the mod I posted was a means of expanding the brass with a powder through expander so you can expand and drop powder in one station and retain the use of your auto disk or pro auto disk powder measure.

noylj

08-06-2012, 12:57 AM

I don't think I wrote what I am "quoted" as saying.
The Lyman M-die is an excellent expander die.
For ALL expanders, simply expand the case (don't simply flare/bell the case mouth) and then measure the case ID. For a 0.356" bullet, the case ID should be 0.354-0.355", and 0.355" is ideal. You can get various sizes of expander plugs for the M-die (the die body comes in a couple of sizes for large and small cases, but the expander plug unscrews easily). In fact, I find that I need to set the expander with LocTite Blue or it works loose all on its own and I start to get over-belled cases.
With Lee, you can order a custom size for a nominal charge.
Expanding is a critical and often ignored step.
Seat a bullet and pull it and determine the degree of swaging.
I find that with most of my cases, they have been fired so often and work-hardened to the point where I run them through two expanders often to actually get the case expanded enough).
Measurements are your friend for this step.

Wal'

08-06-2012, 01:34 AM

If you are talking about swapping the expander plug between the Lyman die and the Lee die the answer is no. They are 2 completely different designs.

Thanks Jailer & I was asking if I could swap the plugs between the Lyman dies only, not having one in hand have no idea how its been designed & put together.

Will wait until it arrives & as noylj stated above I can get various sizes of expander plugs for the M-die.

Thanks, Wal' :drinks:

Wal'

08-06-2012, 01:48 AM

[QUOTE=noylj;1801877]I don't think I wrote what I am "quoted" as saying.

It was this quote I was on about :bigsmyl2:

"Look at the case drawings.

The .38 Special case has an OD of 0.379" at the case mouth and an OD of 0.379" just in front of the extractor groove/rim.
The 9x19 case has an OD of 0.380" at the case mouth and an OD of 0.391" just in front of the extractor groove.
If you full length size a 9x19 case with a .38 special die, you will be attempting to squeeze the web area of the case down from 0.391 to 0.379". Something tells me that this will 1) be difficult with out case lube and 2) will not be good for the case."

But better than that, as you wrote I can get various sizes of expander plugs for the M-die.
Will wait until the Lyman M die arrives & then order the plug I need.
The Browning HP is the one 9mm that I have had problems with, the barrel slugs out at 357 & have been using .358 boolits with great success.
But always felt they were being forced into the case.

Again thanks, Wal'

mistermog

08-10-2012, 05:07 PM

Hello everyone, as a side effect to looking into leading in my 9mm I came across this thread. Long story short I just ordered the 38S&W expander for my setup too but thinking of one question.

Does this expand so much that it takes away all the neck tension that supposedly keeps the bullet from setting back when firing? (Planning on using .357 Lee 120gr TC set at 1.075 OAL, so I don't -think- so but just a thought that keeps popping in my head)

gunoil

12-04-2012, 01:57 PM

Off topic just a lil'.. i seat .355/9mm. Dont like bell so i mod'ed lee exp die. This is photo of another brand but my lee die now looks the same. Below : step the die and take out bell.
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/D8FF8F0A-0BC3-4DB8-8FA4-817CDE8E3712-2354-0000043465902543.jpg

took bell out on laithe at shop
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/A7A8F6D3-07D5-42B9-86AA-62C5604837FC-2354-0000043467AC1C9F.jpg

I use bullet feeders so this makes a great seating place for 102 gr round nose cast bullets.

rsrocket1

12-07-2012, 02:52 PM

If anyone is in a pinch and has a Lee 38/357 die set, you can use that insert in the 9mm powder through die. Just stick a 45ACP case in as an additional spacer. Of course you can't drop powder through the die and for $6, the 38 S&W expander is a better long term solution, but this works and the expansion does prevent the 9mm case from excessively swaging down the bullet while still creating enough neck tension to hold the bullet firm.

Also, if you expand to the proper depth and no further, you certainly won't have to worry about bullet set back, that bullet isn't going any deeper!

jcameron996

12-09-2012, 04:29 PM

Okay, I have read the entire thread. If I am understanding everything correctly, replacing the expander plug in my 9mm powder through die with the 38 S&W die expander plug will put me on the road to solving my problems without having to resort to bushings. I don't use the die to actuate a powder measure but I do pour the powder through the die. I set up the expander die in one single stage press and the bullet seater die in another single stage press. That way once I get everything set up I can leave it until I am done. I am currently using the Lee 124 grain 2R tumble lube bullet sized to .357 in a springfield XD subcompact. When I pulled a bullet from a case it had been swaged down to about .356 and I had leading in the barrel after only 20 test rounds and accuracy was less that stellar to say the least. Hopefully this will put me on the right track. Thanks for all the great information.

Jailer

12-09-2012, 06:06 PM

Jal5

12-09-2012, 09:38 PM

Yes this little tip on the expander helped me eliminate leading in my S&W M&P Shield 9mm shooting the Lee 358125 RNF. Now I just need to do a little more with the powder load in Unique and I should be good for a practice round. Joe

stanglx2002

01-16-2013, 01:19 PM

How far down are you expanding the case with the S&W expander?

Jailer

01-16-2013, 08:46 PM

Just measured mine and the expander portion is .300 in length.

gunoil

02-17-2013, 12:04 PM

went away from bell expanders to rcbs step die in station 2, sta 3 is powder hopper w/ expander nipple cut off, Got idea from mrbulletfeeder.biz expander die. And i am investing in some dillon dies, like to mix and match. And CNC friend is making custom dies now. I size my lead plinking rnds at .355. I use a mrbulletfeeder drop die.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/8508616B-B7D0-453C-951A-817FF2687928-19970-000010A6DF02C6DF_zpsc77d5f8b.mp4

Von Dingo

03-23-2013, 04:47 PM

Just wanted to say thanks for this Jailer.

Jailer

03-23-2013, 05:10 PM

You're welcome.

Blacksamwell

04-02-2013, 07:29 PM

Thanks Jailer! The 38 S&W expander cured my leading issues using 147 gr MO Bullet Co cast bullets in my Springfield XD9 subcompact.

Jailer

04-03-2013, 07:09 PM

Thanks Jailer! The 38 S&W expander cured my leading issues using 147 gr MO Bullet Co cast bullets in my Springfield XD9 subcompact.

That's great, thanks for the feedback.

remy3424

04-10-2013, 12:19 PM

Quite the tread, nice job on this. My question is, if one doesn't run the 38 S&W expander plug all the way in, assurming if one didn't want the boolit seated that deep, will you need to flare the case mouth with a standard expander either before or after this step? I am ordering the die with and a 38 S&W expander plug, don't currently use the Lee dies for my 9mm and I don't see a 38 S&W expander powder through die at Titan....would it be correct or is it even made?? I don't even need the flow through die feature....just want a clean barrel (can't get the last bit of leading to cease).

Jailer

04-10-2013, 07:26 PM

You can set the depth of the expander by adjusting the die body up in your press. How much you will need to do this I don't know, you'll have to experiment with it. I run mine all the way in so I don't have that answer.

As far as you other question, I don't quite understand what you are asking. You use the 38 S&W expander plug in the 9mm expander die body. You don't want the 38 S&W expander die, just the expander plug. I got mine from FS Reloading.

https://fsreloading.com/lee-precision-pm-expan-plg-38-sw-se1699.html

remy3424

04-11-2013, 01:08 PM

Those guys have both in-stock! What I was driving at was is the new expander will "expand" the case to .358 or so, the dia. of my boolit for the depth I run it into the case, but if I don't run the plug "all" the way into the case, it won't "flare" the mouth to make it easier to start the boolit w/o shaving...or is that not going to be an issue if the mouth is only the same diameter as the boolit?

Have the new die (wasn't using Lee prior) and 38 S&W insert already. Now just need to cast a pile of 9s and start playing with things....Thanks fellas!!! Maybe Lee should market the 38 S&W insert as a cast boolit insert for the 9mm....anyone from Lee here??

Springfield0612

04-16-2013, 12:30 PM

About the time that the reccomendation was made on this thread to use the .38 S&W expander, I was on the market for Lee .38 S&W dies for my Police Positive revolver. Now I know why I was having such a hard time finding them! :veryconfu But it comes full circle, because now I can use the expander for my 9mm as well! [smilie=w:

I hope it helps me out!

bhop

04-18-2013, 06:13 AM

so this is kinda off subject but is there any other dies that i could maybe modify to seat 9mm boolits? i can get 38 dies and 9mm mak locally but not 9mm luger, i have a lee pro 1000 if that matters.

Moonie

07-16-2013, 10:05 AM

so this is kinda off subject but is there any other dies that i could maybe modify to seat 9mm boolits? i can get 38 dies and 9mm mak locally but not 9mm luger, i have a lee pro 1000 if that matters.

You really need to get the proper dies. I ordered 9mm dies a few months ago, just arrived last week. Ordered the 38S&W expander plug today.

tesquenure

07-29-2013, 09:45 PM

Hi all,
I have the same problem with my lee die.
Just testing on case no full die sizer and just flare case.
Seat the bullet and put it of with hammer at .3565.
Does it can be a solution to sand paper sizer die only ?

Thx
Tesq

Jailer

07-30-2013, 10:05 PM

Sanding the die would only increase the outside diameter and make your brass out of spec. Not a direction I would want to head in reloading.

retread

07-31-2013, 04:05 PM

Just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your post. I have been thinking of many different ways to solve this same problem (using an M die, etc) but when I saw your post I was asking myself "why didn't I think of that". I did the same as you, I took the powder tube out of my 38 Special setup, turned a brass spacer to make up for the shorter tube and I was in business. My set up is a Dillon but the process is the same. My pulled boolits now mic at .356-.357. Haven't gone to the range yet but I know things are about to get a whole lot better.

Thanks again for helping me and others by coming up with such a simple and great solution.

Regards, Jay

fullofdays

02-19-2014, 07:00 PM

My lee 38 s&w plug came in the mail but it won't fit my dilon die. The ID of the die is .554 but the lee plug is .560. Any suggestions?

http://imgur.com/ibjwYBp

Silverboolit

02-19-2014, 07:45 PM

You need the LEE PTE die for 9mm AND the .38 S&W expander, which I see you already have..

prickett

02-19-2014, 11:24 PM

Uh, stick it in a Lee die?

fullofdays

02-20-2014, 12:21 AM

Can I lap the lee plug to fit in the Dillon die?? I don't think my Dillon powder measure will fit the lee die.

fullofdays

02-20-2014, 08:29 PM

Anybody know if the lee pte die will fit a Dillon powder measure?

noylj

02-21-2014, 09:43 PM

Yes, yes. Dies are all very compatible--unless you have a Dillon SDB.
With the PTE, you need to use a Lee measure. With the Dillon powder die, you need to use a Dillon measure. With a Hornady powder die, you need to use a Hornady measure. At least, for ease of case activation.

Jailer

02-21-2014, 10:14 PM

Can I lap the lee plug to fit in the Dillon die?? I don't think my Dillon powder measure will fit the lee die.

This mod I posted is for the Lee powder through expander die. I don't own any dillon dies so I can't answer your question about dillon dies.

fullofdays

02-22-2014, 03:36 PM

Wonder if a Dillon 38 s&w plug will give the same result... Hmmm

Quiettime

03-29-2014, 09:36 PM

I went through the same thought process and came up with some small washers I had lying around that stack snugly inside the die. The 38 S&W sounds like the shizz

220

03-29-2014, 10:15 PM

I was about 5 pages into this and while I could understand the theory of it working I couldn't understand how it would in practice, the 9mm expander is nothing like an M die.
Kept picturing the 38 expander the same as the 9mm, the 9mm expander is 0.150 long and tapered for the entire length, went and pulled the expander out of my 38spl dies, 0.300 long straight for the first 0.200 and tapered for the last 0.100 to flare the mouth and .355 dia.
0.050-0.100 longer would be perfect but far better than the 9mm for cast.

BucketBack

05-09-2014, 12:38 PM

Good info since I'm starting up a 550B with Lee dies,9mm conversion and 53.15 lbs of Dardas 124 gr RN

Bookmarking it as well as the one linking it.

BucketBack

05-09-2014, 01:05 PM

My 9mm powder funnel only opens up the case to about .352",the Dardas 124 RN measure .3565" to just under .357"

My bores are .3555". Looks like a 9mm M die is in order.

Moonie

05-12-2014, 08:58 AM

jell-dog

07-04-2014, 07:14 PM

Not trying to hijack this thread, but the question of whether your powder measure will attach to the Lee expansion/powder thru die was asked.
Simple solution to attach your RCBS UNIFLOW, LYMAN, REDDING, or any powder measure with a standard 7/8 X 14 threads, check out this link: http://uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1370

Yes, yes. Dies are all very compatible--unless you have a Dillon SDB.
With the PTE, you need to use a Lee measure. With the Dillon powder die, you need to use a Dillon measure. With a Hornady powder die, you need to use a Hornady measure. At least, for ease of case activation
This is very true, but for those using single stage press, it gives options for mixing/matching powder measures with Lee dies, but you will have to manually trip the powder measure to make use of the powder thru Lee dies. YMMV

kryogen

07-05-2014, 08:31 PM

Oh god all this or just buy an m die?

Jailer

07-05-2014, 10:54 PM

Oh god all this or just buy an m die?

All this? You mean replacing the expander plug with a different one that is a direct drop in replacement and costs $3 or spending $20 + on an M die? Pretty simple choice in my book.

kryogen

07-06-2014, 09:02 AM

well to canada, it's 3$ + 15$ + 15$ at least... so that ends up being a 33$ plug...

kenn

07-08-2014, 08:31 AM

well to canada, it's 3$ + 15$ + 15$ at least... so that ends up being a 33$ plug...

If you order directly from Lee (which I did), they will send it in a first class postage envelope by US mail. Is that really going to cost you $30 in postage from Lee directly? This little mod is a gem, by the way. I've made several dummies in 9MM and the boolits are not sizing down plus the go in easier as the funnel is so much deeper. It won't work on JHP .355 but popping the original plug back in takes all of 30 seconds and I have found a depth for the die body that works for both plugs. Cake.

jamo002

07-11-2014, 06:31 PM

Moonie

07-12-2014, 11:39 AM

This is a great thread but I'm confused. If the problem is leading in a 9mm barrel, why haven't y'all tried (.355 ish) 9mm Luger boolets instead of .357-.358 which are normaly for a .38/.357 revolver? I always load .355 boolets in my .357 Sig because it's really a 9mm NOT a .357. What about a harder alloy? Am I off base here? Aren't these the normal procedured to eliminate leading?

Most 9mm's are larger than .355, slug your barrel and size +.001-.002, hence the .357-.358. For 357's most people size .358-.360 depending on the size of their groove diameter. Do not go by what some book says, slug that barrel. Give your gun what it wants.

Most people have horrible experiences shooting .355 boolits in 9mm as they are usually undersize, nothing leads worse than an undersize boolit.

noylj

07-18-2014, 02:32 AM

If a bullet is too small, it will cause leading.
If a bullet is pushed too fast, it will cause leading.
If a bullet is too small and too hard, it will cause a LOT of leading.
If a bullet is too soft and pushed too hard, it will cause a LOT of leading.
An oversized bullet is not a cause of leading and is generally a solution to leading.
0.357" jacketed and 0.358" lead bullets have been used since probably the twenties or thirties.
The speed/pressure of 9x19 is not so high that alloy hardness is really an issue, except for the too small and too hard situation.
Some report using groove-diameter lead bullets without issue. I have never found them to work for me, unless they are quite soft--yet, Mike Ventorino (sp?) reports only using linotype alloy bullets sized to groove diameter, even in his submachine guns.

Rizzo

09-14-2014, 05:11 PM

Great info, thanks to all who contributed to this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.
The way I understand this is the sized 9mm case is smaller than the .358" cast bullet so when setting the bullet in the case the brass will swage down the .358" bullet to a smaller size. This was noted to be .355" from the OP. By using the 38 S&W part, the brass will be wider (.356"?) so the cast bullet (.358") will not get swaged down by the brass case such that if you pull the bullet it will still be .358".
The amount of expansion is set to approx. .30" down from the top of the case.
Is that correct?

A thought occurred to me about using a fired non-resized 9mm cartridge instead. Perhaps it is enlarged enough from the firing expansion to accept the .358 cast bullet without doing the mod to the 9mm die. This would keep the tapered case dimension rather than changing it with a straight .30" expansion area if doing it with the modded die.

Thoughts?
Thanks.

Jailer

10-27-2014, 06:04 PM

The 38 S&W expander opens the case up further down than the 9mm expander does due to it's longer length. Your experiment may work but I would think you would have quite a bit of extreme spread in your load due to inconsistent neck tension. Sizing and then expanding gives you repeatable results.

rsrocket1

04-17-2015, 12:04 PM

I forgot about this thread for a while. Anyway, here is a picture comparing the 38 S&W PTX plug to the 9mm plug and the 38/357 plug sitting next to a TL356-124-2R and 356-120-TC.
You can see that the 9mm plug will not expand the case enough for the lead bullets. You can also see that the 38/357 plug is too short and needs to be lengthened to reach a 9mm case.
137114

Pee Wee

08-27-2015, 08:11 AM

nice job jailer

gloob

08-31-2015, 03:09 PM

A thought occurred to me about using a fired non-resized 9mm cartridge instead. Perhaps it is enlarged enough from the firing expansion to accept the .358 cast bullet without doing the mod to the 9mm die. This would keep the tapered case dimension rather than changing it with a straight .30" expansion area if doing it with the modded die.
Yes, it might work... I might investigate this if I shoot and load for only one 9mm firearm. I would check to make sure setback is not going to be an issue with my specific cast bullet.* I would check to make sure the ammo feeds and chambers without issue. I would check this in all headstamps. I would recheck this as I load those cases multiple times, because this might change, maybe? (Like when neck sizing rifle ammo, you eventually need to FLR?) If your chamber happens to be exactly right, then this might work great. But that's a lot of hassle.

*With the 38S&W expander, the case is only opened up to where the base of the bullet sits. Even if the neck tension isn't 100% for your bullet, the bullet can't easily setback.

toallmy

09-13-2015, 04:21 AM

Ok that is allot to go through . All right hear is my question ( I have been using a lee powder through die with a 38 s/w expander plug in it ) it helped a great deal with squishing down my fat little 9s . So now I am interested in a lyman 9mm m die but do I need a different expander plug to open up to .358 . I am still getting a little swaggering out of my lee die with 38s/w insert. Thanks.

Jailer

09-18-2015, 06:42 PM

I don't have any experience with the m-die in anything other than 30 cal so I don't know what you would need to get. If you need something different NOE (http://noebulletmolds.com/) does offer custom inserts for Lee Universal Expander Dies (http://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html) in rifle (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=88&osCsid=3c0sut6r36v7t0lb7v07hie2f0) and pistol (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=89&osCsid=3c0sut6r36v7t0lb7v07hie2f0) and Buffalo Arms offers custom expanders (http://www.buffaloarms.com/custom_expanders_pr-4035.aspx) as well.

toallmy

09-19-2015, 04:52 AM

Thanks will check in on it .

gloob

09-21-2015, 06:15 AM

The Lyman M die expanders are essentially exactly the same size as regular expanders. In 9mm, that means the expander is .353" wide, and that is not going to help you in the least.

The largest NOE expander (in the right zipcode, anyway) is the 0.356" expander with a 0.360" flare. Notice that the Lee 38SW plug you are using also measures .356. So if you're still getting a little swaging, then this is still not big enough.

I would consider ordering a custom plug that is 0.358" with a .361" flare. This will open your brass to about .356" +- half a mil, with a .359" flare.

toallmy

09-21-2015, 08:20 AM

Thanks for the heads up on the lyman m die. Will look into larger insert . But I think I am going to harden up some lead a little and give that a try first . I have been using plumbing lead and tin but it is very soft / so I have a couple buckets of coww I am going to melt down and try 50/50 ww and plumbers lead to see if that helps . I pulled some and am getting .3565 after switching to the s/w 38 expander witch is much better but would like to get .357-.3575 . After swapping out the inserts I started getting groups instead of patterns but now trying to get real good groups I guess it never ends . After 25 yards will want 50 right. But thanks again about the m die ,I use them on the .357 mag and am having good result.

Jailer

09-22-2015, 07:51 PM

I've got 2 different molds I use for 9mm, both Mihec molds. One is the 125gr HP and the other is the 140gr solid. The 140gr are just enough longer that they swage down some when seated so I heat treat those rounds to keep them from swaging.

It takes a bit of experimenting to find out what will work for your situation.

gloob

09-26-2015, 11:51 PM

Thanks for the heads up on the lyman m die. Will look into larger insert . But I think I am going to harden up some lead a little and give that a try first
Experimenting with the alloy is fine. Personally, I prefer to first open up the cases, if needed. I prefer to keep the alloys softer, where possible. Heat treating or increasing tin/antimony of an alloy to keep the bases from swaging can work, but it's just a compromise. If you have to harden the alloy to stop the swaging, your bullet is also going to be too hard to completely obturate (and most barrels aren't completely perfect). Harder alloys are preferred by commercial casters because they are most likely to shoot ok in any random gun without terrible fouling. But harder alloys aren't particularly likely to shoot superbly in any gun. Tin and antimony are also more expensive than lead.

If you want to shoot cast bullets with the mystical "no leading at all," you'll need some luck with your gun. But chances are you'll only get there with a big enough bullet of a soft enough alloy. Some guys are lucky, because they can get this with standard off the shelf tools. A lot of reloaders will never experience this without a custom expander. If you are making bullets for yourself, not for a thousand different joes with different guns and messed up dies, you may find that softer alloys are one of the key ingredients for success.

toallmy

02-02-2016, 08:47 AM

Well my harder alloys did not help , I have tried everything except a custom plug .I know I probably should have started with it , but I usually do everything the hard way it helps me remember. So I'm gonna to try noe custom plug as recommended. Strangely enough I have not had a problem with leading at all .

toallmy

02-02-2016, 07:19 PM

I got in touch with noe today , and was advised to give buckshot a try for a custom expander . Will do.

crabo

04-01-2017, 11:57 PM

SO I am having troubles with my Dillon Square Deal loading 9mms. Do you think if I took one of the 9mm powder funnels, chucked it up in the drill press, and made the taper longer and a little smaller, it would do what you guys are talking about here?

https://www.dillonprecision.com/powder-funnels_8_48_25279.html

toallmy

04-02-2017, 07:39 AM

I wish I could help crabo but I'm not familiar with your press and dies , but after installing custom expander plugs in my lee , and Lyman dies I'm a happy shooter . Buckshot made me one before he retired , and lathsmith is making me another . I think you're on the right track ...

remy3424

03-08-2018, 12:16 AM

I have used the 38S&W insert in my turret press with great results. I just acquired a Dillon 550B. Is Dillon or anyone else making a Dillon compatible funnel with the Lee 38S&W profile for Dillon powder dumpers? I really wanted to set this up for 9mm, but it might have to be for 45ACP. I haven't tried the supplied 9mm funnel with it, it looks like it is longer than the Lee 9mm expander but not the .3" length of the 38S&W.

Update...Going in the right direction with lathesmith now!

Thomas918

12-01-2022, 03:01 AM

I have a problem. I put the 38sw plug into my expander through die. 90% of the finished rounds crimped good but the remaining rounds I could move the bullet back and forth and rotate it inside the case. I couldn't pull it out by hand but it still wasn't crimped in there right. I am using the bullet searing and crimping die with no crimp being applied followed up by a Lee factory crimp die applying a medium crimp. I even see the crimp line in the bullet on the rounds I can rotate and move the bullet in and out by at least .020

Kenstone

12-01-2022, 02:10 PM