A question for the compition shooters.

[DIRT Farmer]

Both of my 1917s have problamatic bores in the barrels and from what I hear all of the origional barrels are long gone. Does replacing the barrel with matching conture for GI apperance keep the gun from shooting in military match.

I would ask on the CBA site but I have not been able to get back in there after the last computer crash.

[canyon-ghost]

Hold on tight, I got your post on CBA. I'll get you an answer from them.

Ron

[DIRT Farmer]

Thanks Ron

[WineMan]

CBA Rules say "Original Only" you can replace a barrel but it has to be a period barrel either an original five groove, or a High Standard or Johnson Automatics WWII barrel. The CMP is much more forgiving, as long as it has the military contour (not heavy weight) you are fine to compete in "as issued" Try searching this forum thread http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_forum.php?id=52&sort_by=&page=2

Wineman

[Multigunner]

A barrel made to original specs on period machinery might still have an unfair advantage in quality of the steel and lack of wartime production pressures to turn the barrels out quickly.

One to one most original barrels in good condition could still out shoot much of modern production, but the spectre of a possible unfair advantage would cloud results just the same.

[canyon-ghost]

The short answer: Yes, it does keep it from shooting in a military match, only original barrels can be used. This is stop it from becoming a "spend money on equipment" game. I don't know where the writer is, but around here a M1917 with nice bore is a lot less money than a special made new barrel fitted to an action.

Someone suggested ODCMP site, said they might have original barrels.

[canyon-ghost]

It's also been suggested that you try going to the CBA main page and contacting Jeff Bowles to get logged back in over there. Might be worth a shot.

[DIRT Farmer]

Both of my 1917s have as 303guy says, rust textured bores. I had cleaned them many times over the years, and after several thousand rounds, the Eddystone, the best shooter will still have some green on the patches on the annual clean it to the metal cleaning. I have used several times casts lubed with J&B, but the string on WW I fouling got me to woundering. Yesterday evening I took the Remmington out with 5 RDs of 311-284 for the surface area and coated them with gun grease and the generiac Permatex valve grinding compound. I could not find graded to grit compound. After the five, about 1/3 of the bore had a differant look, about the mid point it looked smokey then no change to the muzzle. I loaded eight more today and fired them tonight. Only the last two inches look un changed tonight. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a chance to try for a group. I loaded 10 grns of IMR4227 with the case filled to the base of the slug with wheat bran, last night it only kept 3 of the 5 on a paper plate at 50. tonight, 7 of 8 went in a 3 inch group.
I have looked at the local gun shows around here for several years, and have not found one that looks better than my Eddystone.

[madsenshooter]

Dirt Farmer, you can get a new made Criterion barrel for the 1917 for less than $200 from the CMP. There are also originals out there still. A friend of mine just found a new in the wrap Johnson Automatics 2 groove barrel for his Eddystone. Here's the CMP store: http://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/catalog.aspx?pg=catalogList&cat=BAR Forgot to mention, replacing the barrel is legal in both CMP and CBA competition. In CBA competition, glass bedding is even allowed!

[Hip's Ax]

You can go here and post that you are looking for a USGI replacement barrel. You will probably get one. If you do make sure to select a gunsmith that knows M1917's as it is argued that you can crack the reciever during barrel swap and for that reason some choose to make a relief cut on the old barrel at the shoulder to make removal of the old barrel easier.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?23-M1917

[DIRT Farmer]

OK, now I think I need to rethink this deal. The Remmington, has a W over 11-18 and no import marks on the barrel, which I thought was the worst shooter by a lot, now after 25 fire lapping shots shot four into 1.5 inch with the 5th opening to 3.5 inches offhand at 40 yards tonight. The bore has realy changed, and I thought it was clean.
Hip's Ax, Thanks for the link. I guess I had not kept with the prices on the rifles. The only refrence was a P-14 that I saw last Winter at 700. I thought it was grossly over priced and still do for its condition. Wish I had picked up a few Winchesters from the pile where I bought these two, As an investment, not far behind gold.
Madenshooter, do you mean CBA would accept a Critrun (sp) barrel from CMP? If not how do the JA 2 grouve barrels shoot cast? the price is comparable and I think I have the parts to make a mix-master.
Thanks to all for your input, and now I think the Eddystone will get some grit down the tube.
Alan

[WineMan]

Try this link: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/military/rules/milbrrules.pdf see page #3

The CBA is very restrictive in the Military matches. They only accept issue actions and barrels, but bedding is allowed in the modified but no aftermarket (Criterion, Kriger etc) barrels for any Military Class tournament.

If you go for some other discipline then you can probably use a military rifle with an aftermarket barrel but you would be shooting against more modern and better built rifles. http://www.castbulletassoc.org/pdf/OfficialRulesforCompetition.pdf

Wineman

[madsenshooter]

Oh, I see, "issue action and barrel", even in the new Hunter Class. That leaves CMP Vintage shooting. Though you might be shooting against more modern rifles in that regard, a 1917 won the match at Camp Perry last year. And too, if you wished to rebarrel, you could enter CBA benchrest competition as a production rifle, competing with only yourself hoping to do a bit better each match. Sorry about the bad advice above, best keep looking for that new "original" barrel. Me, I'm the type that'd put a Criterion on my Krag and just not mention it. Don't imagine there's too many people who could tell the difference. Also don't imagine there's much of a tech inspection save at the nationals.

[DIRT Farmer]

I am working on setting up a few cast matches for another range,
#1 I want to pick the "best" rules,
#2 I hope it is compatable with other groups.
#3 I sure would like to have an competive rifle.

I am amazed with the change in the barrel. Hope every thing stayes smoothe here, (I spent most of last night sitting in ER). I hope to get to spend an hour or two at the range tomorrow.

[madsenshooter]

Dirt Farmer, you asked one question that was up my alley, that was how do the 2 groove JA barrels shoot cast. My buddy sent me a pic the other day. He's just starting load development, and breaking that new barrel in. Here's the pic he sent. That's with the Eagan MX3-30AR, a nose pour 168gr boolit. He's down there some, that boolit likes it up around 2000fps. I can't recall his handle here, but I'll see if I can find it. He's from Decatur, IL., maybe he can help find a barrel. Notice the top two holes in the second pic, the lead smudges on the edge, those were his first two shots. I'll bet he left his barrel dirty from a previous outing.:kidding:

[DIRT Farmer]

OK that answers that question, Madenshooter.
On the barrel I am thying fire lapping on, I have 25 lapps through it, how do you know when to quit, I am guessing lap, then shoot. When the group does not improve, quit?

[madsenshooter]

That'd be new territory for me. When there's no lands left, you've got too far! I'd measure a slug every now and then if I were doing it.

[waksupi]

I have only fire lapped a few barrels, but I have never had to go over 20 rounds.

[Terryrm1-03]

Dirt Farmer, I just got lucky on the Culvers shooting page on the 1917's forum, and found a guy that had a JA, New in the wrap. I Wanted a 2 groove as they claim they shoot cast real well. I ad a pitted Winchester barrel that wouldn't hold a group as it like to consume lead. This 2 groove as Madenshooter posted my shots is doing awesome groups! She drills em right in. Now i'm working on speeding up my Eagan bullet to higher velocities. But haven't had time to try any out.
I don't have anymore connections for a JA barrel, and yes, it would still qualify for matches.
For some reason also though, I thought it was posted on CMP's website that the Criterions would qualify also. Am I wrong here???
Good luck with your quest!
And PS: I heated my recvr with a propane tourch to expand it alittle, and my barrel just unscrewed right off. It was easier than some of my Garands that I have swapped out!
Then just headspaced till the "GO" gauge let the bolt close fully and didn't go anymore. I wanted it "SHORT" so my cast boolits would engage rifling.
Terry

[Terryrm1-03]

Here's CMPs webpage specs for the Criterion barrels:

Barrel, New Criterion 1917 RIFLE, 4140 CHROME MOLY STEEL
New 1917 barrels by Criterion Barrels, Inc., 4140 chrome
moly steel, button rifled, contoured & finish lapped after
contouring. Parkerized like the original M1917 and chambered
.010 away from finish size, to be fitted and headspaced with
assembly to fit your receiver and bolt dimensions. Extractor
cut made, barrel has timing mark and front sight key cut
has been made. Barrel is marked CBI, also date of manuf and
the roman numeral IV. Barrel complies with CMP competition
rules. ASSEMBLY & HEADSPACING BY A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH IS
REQUIRED.

[madsenshooter]

You're right about the CMP Terry. The problem is in the wording of the Cast Bullet Association's rules. They use the term "original barrel" Truthfully, I doubt my 116 year old Krag receiver's have an "original" barrel. They were no doubt rebuilt at some point. I'll write my District Rep. As long it's original contour, and you don't have guys putting heavy barrels on, I see no reason why one couldn't use a Criterion. From what I've read about the Krag barrels from Criterion, they can be a tad oversized like the "originals", just not as much. So where is the advantage somebody "might" have. One of my 1898s has a star-gauged barrel, so it was put on after the "original" was replaced, and it's tight. I doubt a Criterion made Krag barrel would have an advantage over it in cast bullet competition. I sure wouldn't cry if someone beat me shooting one. Maybe the guys that hold the CBA military records want to protect them. I don't know if the Criterions for the 1917 have 5 groove rifling or not.

[DIRT Farmer]

Just finished cleaning the barrel from the Remmington. I washed it with WD-40 because I wanted to know if it had any lead in it. There was none, but what I did see was what appered to be small chunks of scale in a few grouves. The last few inches still appear smokey viewed from the breech but appear fine from the muzzle.
13 grns of Green Dot dropped from a Lyman charger under a 311-291 cast of WW Hornady gas check and Winchester large rifle primer put 7 into less than 2 inches The total group was 4.5 inches. I had shot 5 rds of an old unmarked mould of the Louvern style with all grouves filled to foul the bore first. They splattered the whole target. I then fired around 35 shoths loaded as above but with WLP primers, the groups were OK, but not as good as the first one. I think I need to push a 319 round ball through and see how the barrel feels.

Madenshooter, others, would you go for a new JA barrel as one of the sites above had or do you think a used barrel might have some of the kinks polished out?

[Terryrm1-03]

Got it Bob! I forgot about CBA rules. I used to shoot postal matches.
Dirt farmer, there are other originals out there in very nice shape and would make very nice cast shooting barrels. Some just didn't get as abused as others.
I'll keep my eyes open.
take care Terry

[madsenshooter]

Dirt Farmer, I did write my CBA district rep. In my mind there's no reason why a person shouldn't be able to use the Criterion barrels. Making a big hairy deal outta nuttin. There's so many people rebuilding Krags now and using those Criterion barrels, heck they're paying over $100 just for a front band! Some of those guys built them with the idea of shooting cast, but they're not going to be able to shoot in cast matches with them! That stinks! Were I you, I'd go with the JA barrel.

[DIRT Farmer]

The one site had new barrels in the wrap, I think I will go that route, with spending the money on gunsmithing, I would hate to spend it twice. It would be nice though to know I wouldn't have to possibly spend the money twice due to war time production standards.

[shooterg]

Curious . What's CBA say about a relined original tube ?

[madsenshooter]

I,d ask one of their higher ups if I were you. They don't even like me publicly discussing the Criterion barrels. I'd say that with the exception of the regional or national tournaments, things are pretty much up to the fellow running the match.

[NuJudge]

The Criterion barrels shoot very well. I bought a Civilian Marksmanship Program M1917 some while ago. It had a dark bore, but it gauged as new on wear gauges. It would not shoot worth a hoot. I shipped it off to a gunsmith in Denver, and he replaced the barrel with a Criterion. It shoots exceedingly well now.

After about 15 rounds, it will sometimes throw a flier downward, out of the group. My guess is I have some barrel contact issues.

[Terryrm1-03]

Numrich has used 2 groove barrels for the 17. I presume they are wartime rebuilds.
They say "FAIR" condition. You'd have to ask them about that.
HTH's
Terry
Also, Even though you just got some good groups Dirt Farmer that was with just a few rounds. As with my Winchester barrel she fired really tight groups at first. Then after 15 or so rounds later they went to "HOLY HECK", and never got better again till recleaned.
I even cleaned mine using electroylosis. That really cleaned the bore of all kinds of junk.
Still didn't help.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I am a CBA Military match director and personally would let you compete but would note the non issue barrel the results.
BUT....It eventually opens the door for aftermarket barrels of higher quality of the same military contour.Its like car racing as soon as you start to allow one little change the class eventually becomes another.And its the challenge of finding that old gun with a good barrel that is part of the game.

george

[madsenshooter]

Though I do see your point George, I can tell you in the case of the Krag, buying any barrel blank that will finish out at 30" is horribly expensive, and then there's the cost of machining, installation, etc. But we're talking about not allowing barrels that are accepted for both NRA and CMP competition. We're supposed to be looking for members, not making rules that bar the way to some. The CMP has sold enough of those 30" Krag barrels that the first run is gone. There may not be many of those who bought them interested in CBA competition, but I think it folly to not allow those who are to join in the fun. The Criterions are marked as such, by the way. I was going to have an extra K31 barrel that I have turned down to Krag carbine contour, guess that's out now!

:kidding:

[HARRYMPOPE]

Though I do see your point George, I can tell you in the case of the Krag, buying any barrel blank that will finish out at 30" is horribly expensive, and then there's the cost of machining, installation, etc. But we're talking about not allowing barrels that are accepted for both NRA and CMP competition. We're supposed to be looking for members, not making rules that bar the way to some. The CMP has sold enough of those 30" Krag barrels that the first run is gone. There may not be many of those who bought them interested in CBA competition, but I think it folly to not allow those who are to join in the fun. The Criterions are marked as such, by the way. I was going to have an extra K31 barrel that I have turned down to Krag carbine contour, guess that's out now!

:kidding:

i agree with your agrument but also see the CBA's point.Its not that they wont let a guy shoot we just wont let the score be official.The new Big Bore class guys are having trouble getting good Trapdoors with barrels but that's part of the fun.I see the old rifles and their age and wear part of the battle.There are many other classes you can shoot in the CBA and have fun. the guys who devised the military class are trying to keep in pure as they can and not an equipment race.I shot an FN FAL at the 2011 Washington State Championships and is had a military action but surplus Argentine barrel and if i set a record(unlikely) it would have been void but i had fun anyhow.


George

[Multigunner]

Here's CMPs webpage specs for the Criterion barrels:

Barrel, New Criterion 1917 RIFLE, 4140 CHROME MOLY STEEL
New 1917 barrels by Criterion Barrels, Inc., 4140 chrome
moly steel, button rifled, contoured & finish lapped after
contouring. Parkerized like the original M1917 and chambered
.010 away from finish size, to be fitted and headspaced with
assembly to fit your receiver and bolt dimensions. Extractor
cut made, barrel has timing mark and front sight key cut
has been made. Barrel is marked CBI, also date of manuf and
the roman numeral IV. Barrel complies with CMP competition
rules. ASSEMBLY & HEADSPACING BY A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH IS
REQUIRED.

The original barrel specs for the M1917 rifle show the following.
Barrel Steel
Carbon .45%
Manganese 1.10 to 1.35%
Silicon .20 to .30%
Phosphorous under .06%
Sulphur under .06%

No chrome or molybdenum
The Garand barrels were true Chrome Molybdenum steel no. 4150.

So the metallurgy of the Criterion barrels is not correct as a reproction M1917 barrel but is possibly correct for a WW2 or later replacement barrel.

The run of the mill OEM M1917 barrels were Enfield pattern rifled, and from what I could find the bores were slightly looser than the bores of Springfield or commercial .30-06 bores.

Theres good aspect and possibly not so good aspects of the original barrels.
They allowed for up to .310 major diameter, which is probably where the rumor that .303 barrels were used in early production, and this was more in line with tolerances of the Krag .30 barrels.
Some barrels were probably tighter and near the standard of .30 minor and .3085 major.

After WW1 some U S Army ordnance officers suggested that all U S .30 rifles and MGs should use the same Enfield pattern rifling to allow a much longer accurate bore life, estimated to be over 30,000 rounds when single base powders were used.
This corresponds to tests the British ran on 7.62 NATO FAL rifles with slightly undersized bores and the Enfield pattern rifling. Bore life was between 30,000 and 50,000 rnds when single base or very low Nitroglycerin content double base powders were used. Much would depend on rate of fire of course.

[HARRYMPOPE]

my p17's both have HS 4 groove barrels and are "about" 3085 x 301

[madsenshooter]

That's interesting Harry, HS made some 6 groove barrels too, if one can believe what he reads here and there. Here and there cause I forgot where I read it!

[DIRT Farmer]

Harry, I almost understand the idea of avoiding the "price war" equipment race as I do shoot origional muzzle loaders. If one had the money I know where there are some very good shooting origionals for sale, but a lot of years I have not made that much money let alone be able to spend it. Reproductions are the way a lot of us got started.
The few 1917s and 03-A3s in good enough shape to appear to be competive rifles are out of my price range, a new barrel and gunsmithing to set up one of my guns would only be a down payment on some of these rifles.
I do not expect to win matches, but would like to know my rifle is competive even if my skills and eyes are not.