43 Spanish

[jim4065]

Just received my "new" rolling block, and I've got some concerns. I know that several of you have these, so I'd really appreciate some advice.

1 - The barrell is badly pitted outside along and under the wood line.
2 - When the hammer is forward you can move the "block" back on its hinge a little.
3 - Is the firing pin just supposed to float? No spring at all?
4 - Rear sight is a worn out floppy whatever.
5 - No markings that I can see - anywhere.
6 - Bar type extractor.
7 - Good wood and ramrod.
8 - Pitted bore with quite a bit of rifling showing.
9 - I paid $426 plus $30 shipping but have a 3 day inspection/return privliedge.

Do you think it's safe? I know you can't see the rifle, but I'm concerned that I paid too little. The guy who sold it thinks it'll make a great shooter, but I'm not sure that's so. I really don't care much for wall-hangers, so that's out. Maybe the thing to do is just shoot it - but of course that voids the return clause.

[wills]

3. No firing pin spring. Close the block gently.

http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/remington/roll_block.html

[Bull Schmitt]

For that kind of money I would expect to get a genuine Remington Rolling Block rifle in good condition. If nothing else this would make parts replacement much easier in the future if need be. Surprisingly most of the Argentine 43 Spanish rolling blocks seem to have very good bores. Some have .439 bores while others may require a .446 bullet. As to whether your is safe I cannot say without seeing it.

Bull Schmitt

[AkMike]

If the breech block is loose when the hammers down you have worn out pins. They should be replaced for saftey.

[Buckshot]

................If the barrel has a flat topped knoxform ahead of the action it 'may' be a Argentine contract RB. However, I do believe that they all had the rotary extractor. The early Rem RB's (and the smokless 1897) had the early sliding extractor.

As to being "43 Spanish" it can be either the .43 Spanish Reformando, or the .43 Spanish Remington. Go to Keith Doyons excellent website at:

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Spain/Ovid-Rem.htm

You'll be able to scroll down and see the difference between the .43 Span-Rem cartridge case (11.15x58R) and the Spanish Reformando (11.4x57R).

..............Buckshot

[jim4065]

OK - ordered replacement pin from Numrich. 1 pin had already been replaced. Guess I'm going to hang on to it. My first load will be only 50 grains of 2F and cornmeal on top. We'll see how it goes.
Thanks for the advice. And incidentally, if anyone knows of a source for rear sights I'd sure like to hear about it.

[jim4065]

I know this is a "Dead" thread, but what the heck.

I ordered cases from Buffalo, but they haven't shipped yet. I bought 56 rounds of old Remington ammo but the primers won't fire. Tore down a case and discovered it won't deprime, probably Berdan, and the bullet falls loosly thru my barrel. A 45-70 j-word stops and has to be backed out - so I guess I need the .446 mold. I read about a guy who made up some cases by running 45-70 brass thru a sizer die - so that's what I've done. The case is about 1/10" short, but again, what the heck. My only real concern is the slightly smaller base, but since I'm using 100 year old BP, I should be safe enuff. I now have one (1) round of quasi 43 Spanish ammo, so It's off to the woods to see what happens. It's too far to go to just shoot 1 shot, so I'm taking the 310 Cadet (Gads finally shipped the ammo), and the new 25-20 (which I hope to buy ammo for along the way). Such a busy little life. :Fire:

[SharpsShooter]

This thread isn't dead. It was just on standby until your parts came in and you were ready to test. I predict a 1 hole group with your first effort! Seriously, we await your results.

SS

[MT Chambers]

My Roller has never had a firing pin spring(since I've had it). My gunsmith was able to bring the block into proper timing without changing the pins, don't know how he did it. Good luck with the rifle I'm sure you'll enjoy it, I use the NEI .446 mould #277 with the GC shank milled off.

[jim4065]

It worked! And I've still got all my fingers, faces and feces.

Piece of cake. 20 degrees and windy out there and I was tearing up so bad it was hard to see the sights - but it fired. Wonderful cloud of fragrant smoke and the bullet missed the center of the 50 yard target by 5" at the 10 o'clock position. No keyholing, and much less recoil than I anticipated. Naturally the extractor slipped over the smaller diameter rim - but who cares?

As to using a 45-70 case in the 43 roller - I can't recommend it. The case was brand new R-P brass filled and slightly compressed with 100 year old powder. The bullet was also an original. The idea came from Steve Frey, author of "Imported Military Firearms 1866 - 1899". Good idea but bad results - the case split vertically for a full inch from the web almost up to the shoulder. I will probably wait for Buffalo to ship my cases before I try firing again.

As a side note - the 25/20 was a lot of fun, and the Cadet was more fun than kickin' old folks. I'm ready for winter to go down South where it belongs. :drinks:

[Buckshot]

................jim4065, a possible remedy if you're happy with using the 45-70 case is to use a brass spacer made from thinwall brass tube. You can do a net search for brass tubing (or copper tubing) as it comes in all manner of ID, OD, and wall thickness. Use a tubing cutter to cut it, then slide it down the case to 'just' above the rim. Also you can Loctite it, but the expanded casebody upon firing, ahead of it will keep it in place. You can also slit the brass ring at an angle so it can expand a bit when you slide it down, but Loctite would be needed to retain it.

May be a moot point since you have some brass on the way. Did you ever determine which "43 Spanish you have?

..............Buckshot

[jim4065]

Buckshot - Yes, it seems to be the 11.15X54R and not the "Reformado" or the 11X53 "Carbine". The only thing that I'm not sure of is why the .439 bullet is so loose in the bore. If I had a .458 lead bullet I'd push it thru for a better idea of the true bore dimension. At any rate I'm pretty sure that I need to send my untouched .439 mold back and get a .446 mold.

[SharpsShooter]

Those RB's are cool. Here's mine in 45-70. Glad you got started with yours.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/RB2.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/RB3.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/RB4.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/RB4570.jpg


SS

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

SharpShooter; Nice roller, what's the "curly stained with, has the look of nitric acid.
Nice color!!!
Nick

[13Echo]

Nice, handsome rifle. Any history to go with it? Is that original wood? I've heard the curly markings on the wood could be from nitric acid or wrapping a string around the stock and burning it off.

Jerry Liles

[Catshooter]

jim,

Where did you get black powder that's 100 years old? What brand is it?


Cat

[jim4065]

Cat,

I bought 3 boxes of old UMC cartridges with the intention of shooting them, then reloading the cases. Well the primers on the first 20 were inert, so I tore one down to re-prime it. Berdan of course, so much fot that. But I had a box of 45-70 factory loads so I tore one of them down, re-shaped the brass, loaded it with most of the BP from the 43 Spanish UMC round, stuck the old bullet back on top and touched her off. It's been over a month since I got the gun and I got tired of waiting for the new brass. At least if I die of a heart attack or something I'll have shot the damn thing. Now I need some patience.

Jim

[SharpsShooter]

SharpShooter; Nice roller, what's the "curly stained with, has the look of nitric acid.
Nice color!!!
Nick


Nice, handsome rifle. Any history to go with it? Is that original wood? I've heard the curly markings on the wood could be from nitric acid or wrapping a string around the stock and burning it off.

Jerry Liles


Thanks for the compliments guys. To my knowledge the wood and finish are original. It is circa 1900 and was rebarreled in the 30's with a barrel from Numrich. The pins are tight and the trigger rivals many single set triggers I have shot. Unfortunately the throat is short and I am limited in boolit choice to 400-450gr boolits. Paper patch boolits are an option that I have not yet attempted and may be the answer to that issue. As it stands, it will shoot MOA if i do my part.


SS

[Mk42gunner]

A few words from experience,
1. If the brass is reformed 348 Win, fully size each piece of brass so the block will close and the hammer will fall all the way. I really don't enjoy trying to force a round into a rolling block.
2. Lee has the cheapest dies, get several extra shellholders, they are very thin and will pull apart.
3. Have fun. I have used the Lyman 439186, and I bought a Rapine off e-bay shortly before I retired that I need to find out if it works.

Keep us updated,

Robert

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

SharpShooter; I'm always interested in the wood on these old rifles, looks like yours was done by someone who cared.
The nitric acid stains the endgrain dark, the more applications with heat, the darker it gets, the undergrain (curl figure) turns a honey yellow. The wood takes a depth of finish as though you are looking into the wood. Hard to explain, hard to miss when you see it.
Thought you might like know what I saw when I looked at your rifle!!!!! :mrgreen: :drinks:

[SharpsShooter]

Arkansas,

I have seen the string trick done before and it works well. I've never seen the acid treatment, but have read of it and agree that mine was likely a product of that method. I'll admit openly that the wood was a major eye-grabber and I would have swapped for the action and wood alone as a project gun, but the bore is an absolute mirror of perfection. I am a happy camper with it.

SS

[Bigjohn]

I may have to stop visiting this forum as all of you seem to be corrupting me.

I woke up this morning at 2 a.m., feeling that I needed to buy another rifle. No luck surfing the Browning site.

Then I start reading the thread and remember the two packets of brass on the shelf in the store room. One is a packet of BERTRAM .43 Spanish (20) and the other BELL .43 (11mm) Span-Rem Base (20).

Maybe I need a rifle to go with these? :roll:

:drinks:

John.

[StanDahl]

Jim, if your bore is .446", there's a good chance that your throat won't allow you to seat a bullet that size. Mine is that way, and the best results I got were with a 0.440" or so bullet (RCBS's 43 Spanish mould) made of 50:1 alloy. I figured that would be soft enough to bump up to fit the bore. I used 83 grains of Goex Fg, a 0.06" Walters Wad and 3.5 grains of Special Mix #47 shotgun filler in a Buffalo Arms .348 shell trimmed to 2.55", fired and unsized. The filler was in the neck only, but it's a super long neck! The .348 brass is very thick, and fireforming even with full BP loads and bullets took about 3 firings, and even then some cases weren't fully concentric.

The 2.55" brass length seems to be a generally agreed upon length based on chamber casts with others that I have run into on this topic. Because of the greatly increased case volume, some call it the "43-100" or "43 Binford"(!). None of the 2 commonly available bullets (RCBS & 439146) have enough lube groove space to adequately lube the bore, so wiping or blow-tubing is a must.

I did have some case separation, and I believe that is attributable to the 'wiggly' block causing variable headspace on my RRB. I was also using a previous lot of brass with a thinner rim. I have since gotten a later lot with thicker rims, but haven't gotten around to prepping and using them, having abandoned the project about 5 years ago and moved on to other unfinished projects.

I talked via email to Lee Shaver a few years back about opening up the throat of the rifle to accept a larger bullet, he said that the 43 Spanish can be surprisingly accurate with some tweaking, but that the twist won't allow a long enough bullet to use all of that powder efficiently.

If I ever get around to it, I may try breech-seating a paper-patched bullet to the correct diameter and use smokeless to send it off. HTH Stan