Skeeters 44 spec. load

[odis]

I had very good luck today with my first session with a 43-250K bullet from a mold that I bought from accuratemoldsLLC. I loaded up 40 rds with Hercules unique that topped out at 7.5 grs. The last one turned out the best. I only have a half lb of the old stuff left but it will all be used for the 44spec. I'm pretty new to casting but I have been quite lucky so far and have just been lurking on this sight mostly for the last couple of years and soaking up the collective knowledge. Worked out quite well for me so far.

[Larry Gibson]

Other than normal lot to lot differences you won't find any psi or velcoity difference between the older hercules and Alliant Unique. Accuracy remains the same for me also. The new Alliant is supoosed to burn cleaner but with bullet lube on cast bullets I've found any difference between "clean" and "dirty" burning powders to be somewhat of a moot point. I shoot a lot of Skeeters .44 Special load and have for years. its always been a top performer in .44 Specials and even .44 Magnums.

Larry Gibson

[odis]

Other than normal lot to lot differences you won't find any psi or velcoity difference between the older hercules and Alliant Unique. Accuracy remains the same for me also. The new Alliant is supoosed to burn cleaner but with bullet lube on cast bullets I've found any difference between "clean" and "dirty" burning powders to be somewhat of a moot point. I shoot a lot of Skeeters .44 Special load and have for years. its always been a top performer in .44 Specials and even .44 Magnums.

Larry GibsonThanks for the response Larry, I was wondering if there is any difference between the two. I kind of got out of the pastime of reloading and shooting back in the 90s and the last couple of years I've been cleaning out the last of my old stock of kegs from the 80s. I do like casting these boolits from the accurate mold.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm another old decrepit reloader who thinks "Unique is Unique" regardless of vintage or maker. 7.5 grains of same underneath Lyman #429421--whether the fuel came out of metal Hercules cans--paper Hercules flasks--or now plastic Alliant canisters shoots the same. Which is excellently.

To duplicate the 950 FPS performance in 44 Magnum, I pour 8.2 grains of Unique into 44 Mag cases and light off the contents withthe same CCI 300 primers I use in the 44 Special loads. A gentle, "all-day" load in the Redhawk for my girls to shoot. They get pretty jazzed about running that big old Ruger boat anchor in 44 Magnum.

[white eagle]

I have the same Accurate Mold
truly wonderful
my 44 is having the tires rotated so I am lusting
for its speedy return

[PacMan]

I have been shooting 6 grains of HP-38 behind two 250gr bullets with very good accuracy. It sure burns a lot cleaner and meters way better than unique.

The same 6 grains in my 357 does almost as well as it does in the 44sp.

[odis]

What size groups do you'll get from Skeeters old favorite ??I don't post pictures so I don't make any claims other than I'm very very happy with the performance. This probably sounds crazy but this bullet seems to clean the bore rather than lead it up. My next experiment with this bullet is going to be for the Red Hawk, I'll be using up my old 2400 for that one.

[Wally]

Has anyone tried the Lyman 429360 bullet in the .44 Special...?

[Don McDowell]

I'm another old decrepit reloader who thinks "Unique is Unique" regardless of vintage or maker. 7.5 grains of same underneath Lyman #429421--whether the fuel came out of metal Hercules cans--paper Hercules flasks--or now plastic Alliant canisters shoots the same. Which is excellently.
.

Yup I figure if they had of changed it as much as some folks claim, they would of called it "special" and would of went from 2400 to 2300 or 2500 depending on who's doing the explainin.:groner::p

7.5 grs works great as does 8 grs, altho 8 will shake the screws on a colt loose after about 20 rounds.

[Rocky Raab]

I just ran an extensive series of load tests, and it turns out that 6.0 American Select is a very good load with ANY bullet from 180 through 240 grains - cast, swaged or jacketed. You guys who need 1200 fps to kill pop cans won't like it, though. It's moderate to mild depending on bullet weight. It shoots into itsy-bitsy little groups, is clean and doesn't lead; but that's not as important to some as raw power.

[redneckdan]

Has anyone tried the Lyman 429360 bullet in the .44 Special...?

My flat top sprays them. Some of the molds have a front band that measures .424 Mine is one of them. The assumption seems to be this was an attempt at a bore rider of sorts. I have found mine to work rather well in a 44 magnum contender with the bullet seated into the lands.

[Wally]

I used Unique for years...two years ago I tried Red Dot and found it to be a great choice in most pistol calibers that I load/shoot. What I like about Red Dot is thet it is 30% fluffier than Bullseye and 20% more than Unique--so it fills the case better. Also is a tad more cleaner.

[Wally]

My flat top sprays them. Some of the molds have a front band that measures .424 Mine is one of them. The assumption seems to be this was an attempt at a bore rider of sorts. I have found mine to work rather well in a 44 magnum contender with the bullet seated into the lands.

Thank you---many seem to have the same results. I am going to try it out and see how it compares to a 429241 Keith bullet. The mold I have casts bullets with the front driving band @ .419~.420"

[odis]

I just ran an extensive series of load tests, and it turns out that 6.0 American Select is a very good load with ANY bullet from 180 through 240 grains - cast, swaged or jacketed. You guys who need 1200 fps to kill pop cans won't like it, though. It's moderate to mild depending on bullet weight. It shoots into itsy-bitsy little groups, is clean and doesn't lead; but that's not as important to some as raw power.I just got back into reloading and shooting after a very long hiatus, I'm just starting up where I left off and am using up my old stock of powders, I arrived at the 7.5 grs. because it was the most accurate in my 3in. barreled Smith. I find it quite mild and all day shootable.

[Char-Gar]

I am another old fart that started handgun shooting with Bullseye, Unique and 2400. Over the years I have tried some other, but nothing proved superior to the old Hercules powders, so I still use thing.

The load of 7.5/Unique over a Keith bullet in 44 Special cases was a popular load before Skeeter put it into print with his name on it. It was and is a very good load in any sixgun of decent strength.

[429421Cowboy]

I haven't loaded any Specials yet but that has been my planned load when i do, with my usual 240 swc. My only pistol powders are 2400 and Unique. We load 9.5 for our Super Blackhawks, never crony'ed it i figured it was close to a Skeeter load. We found that 9.0 wasn't quite enough to seal the cases. It's our lightest load and my daily carry load at work, gentle enough to shoot all day but it isn't what most guys would call a "real" "cowboy" load but its not an artillery shell either.

[EDK]

429360 seems to get a lot of negative comments from a lot of people. It looks good in the older LYMAN handbooks I have, but performance seems to be poor because of the small front band.

MIHEC makes a very good clone of 429421/H&G 503...got it in aluminum and brass. MMA10MM also had a modified version in a group buy that is excellent in my 44s.

UNIQUE is excellent. So are TITEGROUP, HERCO, HP38/231 or RED DOT/PROMO. POWER PISTOL is good, but seems noisy in comparison to the others. All of them use smaller charges as compared to 2400, H-110/296.

[knifemaker]

I tried the "skeeter load" in my Ruger Blackhawk .44 spec. and it did have good accuracy but it was closer to 900 FPS then 950 FPS out of the blackhawk 5.5 inch barrel.

I have since switched to using W-231, which is identical to HP-38, and at 7.5 grains I am getting a average of 960 FPS with my BRP 250 gr. Keith SWC. The accuracy is also there and I now use W-231 since I have about 10 pounds on hand for loading my 45 ACP ammo for IDPA matches.:Fire:

[Potsy]

I've only tried 2 loads in my 624. 429421's with 7.0grn. Universal and 7.5grn Unique. The load with Universal cut holes at 25 yards while the Unique load did well to hit the target. I've no idea why there was such a difference in performance between two fairly similar loads, but there you have it.
I need to get one of Miha's molds for it and start over. My Lyman is a bit undersized and the 624's throats are a bit generous. Though that may or may not have had anything to do with it's dislike for Unique.

[Char-Gar]

I tried the "skeeter load" in my Ruger Blackhawk .44 spec. and it did have good accuracy but it was closer to 900 FPS then 950 FPS out of the blackhawk 5.5 inch barrel.

I have since switched to using W-231, which is identical to HP-38, and at 7.5 grains I am getting a average of 960 FPS with my BRP 250 gr. Keith SWC. The accuracy is also there and I now use W-231 since I have about 10 pounds on hand for loading my 45 ACP ammo for IDPA matches.:Fire:

Something is not right here! 231/H-38 is considerably faster than Unique. At the same charge weights, the pressure and velocity of these faster powders should be significantly higher than Unique. Hodgon reloading data give 5.2/HP-38 as the max load for the 44 Special at 858 fps.

If you are using 7.5 grains of this powder you are way over the redline and courting disaster. If you made a typo shame on you as this kind of mistake can ruin guns and injure shooters.

[saltydog452]

Todays Unique isn't the same as yesterday's Unique. Or is it?

To get todays 7.0 balance beam weight, I gotta throw 7.5 as measured by yesterdays volume.

Which 'truth' is correct?

salty

[Rocky Raab]

What you are seeing there, saltydog, is the effect of age and solvent evaporation. The older powder has dried out, and therefore it takes a larger volume of it to match the weight of a lesser amount of new powder.

That's one of the drawbacks of using weight to measure charges. A change in solvent content or adsorption of water from the air can change what a given volume of powder weighs. If you change the amount of powder dispensed to match the "correct" weight, you are actually adding or subtracting from the amount of actual powder used - even though the weight is the same.

That, in turn, is why you read of people claiming that powders change over time: they are actually using more or less of it to get to a given weight.

[Olevern]

I have had the same dissatisfaction with the 429360 bullet, it won't shoot in any of my
44 mag revolvers. Thinking about shipping the mold off to a machinest to have the front bands opened up a bit, hate to have an old Lyman 4 cavity lying around doing nothing.

[canyon-ghost]

Well, my age has nothing to do with it, I just bought a Flattop 44 Special this year. 7.0 grains of Unique is soft and good shooting, 7.5 grains of Unique is absolutely great. It's real accurate in my 5.5" barrelled Ruger.

[376Steyr]

...The load with Universal cut holes at 25 yards while the Unique load did well to hit the target. I've no idea why there was such a difference in performance between two fairly similar loads, but there you have it.
In my limited testing I've found some loads are better with Unique, some are better with Universal. I've concluded that you have to test both, even though they are supposedly "twins."

[Potsy]

.376 Steyr,
Based on that, maybe I need to try Unique in my .45 Colt and my .45 ACP. Universal is all I've ran in them. I'm pretty happy it, but maybe I'll find even better results.
The .44 Special kinda boggled me just because I've never gone from one reasonalble load in any gun (pistol or rifle) to another and it just absolutely refuse to shoot reasonably well and for no apparent reason.
The only other gun I've had that gave issues was a Flattop .357, and water quenching bullets brought it to heel pretty quick.
Reckon that's why they call it "load development".

[knifemaker]

Chagar;
I think you need to do some research concerning the loads used in a Ruger Blackhawk 44 Spec. You will find that the famous "Skeeter load" of 7.5 gr. of Unique is also over the redline based on SAAMI specs for the 44 Spec. that is based at 13,000-14,000 PSI.

Speer #13 manual lists the max for a 250 gr. cast SWC at 6.9 gr. of Unique and 6.2 gr. of W-231 for the same bullet based on the low SAAMI specs of around 13,000 PSI. There is many articles by some of our top notch reloading experts that will tell you that the Ruger Blackhawk will safety handle loads approaching 26,000-27,000 PSI.

My load of 7.5 gr. of W-231 is far below that max limit for the Ruger Blackhawk. I worked up to that load and stopped when my chrony gave me the velocity I wanted at 960 FPS.

As for your statement that W-231 is a far faster burning powder then Unique. Please check your burn rate charts and you will see that Unique is listed at #19 on burn rate and W-231 is listed at #20 making then very similar in burn rate.

I do not mind you commenting if you though you would be doing a service to members by bringing up a safety issue, but I would appreciate it if you would do more research before you make such statements.

[rhouser]

My Blackhawk is chambered for 327 federal magnum. The SAAMI spec for this cartridge is 45,000 PSI. (Not a Typo) The Ruger Blackhawks, Super Blackhawks, and Redhawks are known for their strength.

(IMHO) The older 44 Special pistols are the cause of the low SAMMI Spec on the 44 Special, and the SAAMI spec is not fully representative of the cartridges safe potential in a Modern Blackhawk in .44 special.

thanks rc

[Rocky Raab]

Several of the most recent comments above are true, but also a bit misleading.

Burn rate charts are interesting, but as no two are alike they are also not definitive. Burn rate changes with cartridge shape, volume, bullet type and many other factors. The only thing such charts have in common is a written statement to NOT use them to extrapolate load data.

A given handgun chambered for a small-diameter cartridge can handle higher pressures because (well, duh) the holes are smaller, leaving thicker walls to contain the pressure. As with burn rates, extrapolation of strength limits to other cartridges is neither valid nor wise.

Revolvers cannot be instrumented to measure pressure and still be usable as revolvers, so any statements about what pressure a given load develops in a given revolver is a pure guess. Lab tests are done in a pressure barrel, but even with a barrel vented to simulate a revolver, it is (once again) unwise to extrapolate too trustingly to an actual revolver.

Many reloaders (myself included) do go beyond the clearly overcautious pressure limits established for certain cartridges, the .44 Special included. But when we do so, we are mostly outside the ropes. It is prudent to venture only a bit past those guideropes, and then only with the acceptance of full responsibility.

What some cowboy or other got away with 80 or 50 years ago is moot.

[PacMan]

I use HP-38 in my Ruger Flat top 44spl. and have went as high as 7.5 grains but accuracy went out the window for me. The load showed little preasure signs but i could tell that it was hot. I backed off to 6 grains and get 1 inch 25 yard groups and can get almost that with 7 grains but just prefer the light load for around the house.

knifemaker
Looking at the Lyman #49 shows HP-38/W-231 at number 20 and Unique at # 24. Hornady shows HP-38/W-231 as number 17/18 and Unique as # 24.
Not sure where you are getting the numbers showing HP-38 as slower than Unique.

[PacMan]

I need to add that not all manuals show the same powders as others and there could be a closer relationship as far as order goes.At the same time most books clearly state that just because they appear to have a similar burn rate does not mean they do and should be approched as so.

The fact that knifemakers book shows them as one number apart and my two books show them several places apart only backs up their warning.

Long and short you canot use their placnment place on a chart to build loads.Not safely any way.

[376Steyr]

The .44 Special kinda boggled me just because I've never gone from one reasonalble load in any gun (pistol or rifle) to another and it just absolutely refuse to shoot reasonably well and for no apparent reason.
My first 624 gave me fits when I first got it too. Where was the legendary .44 Special accuracy? My rock-hard 429421 bullets sized down to .429 sprayed onto the target. When I changed to a softer alloy with a Keith-clone sized to .432 to fit the cylinder throats I got a huge improvement. It now shoots as good as I can hold.

[maglvr]

In 44spl.(LARGE frame guns ONLY) I use 8.5gr UNIQUE under a true Keith, 250gr hardcast LSWC, in my N-frames, it has some good wallop and has proven quite accurate and CLEAN burning!
UNIQUE & 2400 both burn a lot cleaner at higher pressures.

[knifemaker]

Dwight Hardy;
I reversed the two powders, 231 is #19 and unique is #20 on one of my manuels printed by Loadbooks USA. You had some valid points on not depending on just burn rates for load development as they change when powder companies make a change to their formulas.

I also checked about 5 different load manuels comparing 231 with unique and found many loads with both powders very close to each other. The speer #13 manuel list a max of 6.9 gr. of Unique for the "Keith" cast 250 gr. bullet and list the max for W-231 at 6.2 gr. for the same bullet as a max load for the 44spec. under the SAAMI pressure limits of 13,000 PSI. That is the same bullet I am using for my Ruger Blackhawk 44 spec.

That was my start to working up my 44 Spec. load with W-231 to arrive at a load giving 950 FPS to duplicate as close as possible the old "skeeter" load of 7.5 gr. of Unique. I tried the 7.5 gr. load of Unique and was only able to obtain 900 FPS out of a 5 1/2 inch barrel and had terrible accuracy of 3-4 inch groups at 25 yards.

The W-231 load at 960 FPS gave me consistant 1.5 inch groups and occasional smaller groups and that is now my everyday load for the Blackhawk. I also have a pig hunting load using 16 gr. of 2400 that chrony for a average of 1180 FPS and is below Elmer keith's load of 17.5 gr. of 2400 for his 250 gr. cast swc which has been tested to be at 27,000 psi. in the 44 Spec. case.

I have been reloading for over 35 years and have not blown up or damage a gun yet due to hot rodding a load too much. I try to research numerous loads before I expertiment with a new load and use a chrony to back up any observations of possible high pressure signs.

I also agree that going beyound the listed load is on the reloader if anything goes wrong, but it is common knowledge that the SAAMI specs for the 44 spec are WAY underrated for modern guns in that caliber such as the Ruger and S&W revolvers. I expect it was done for the older small frame black powder era guns that may come apart on loads hotter then 13,000 psi.

[PacMan]

I have two Ruger Flat Tops in 44spl. and have worked up loads for both. One using HP-38 that is mild and 1" or less groups at 25 yards.For the 5 1/2" one i am working with a 280gr LBT WFN and pushing it to the limit and getting 1" to 1 1/2" groups when i do my part.
My corny is down so i am not sure what the velocity is but i am really likig both loads and have some room to spare.

[462]

I have .44 Special cast and jacketed loads that work well in my 24 and 624, and offer the following as information only.

I have two powder burn rate charts that I use for references. One ranks W-231 at number 20 and Unique at number 26. The other, which includes obselete and military powders, ranks W-231 at 39 and Unique at 53.

[rhouser]

A given handgun chambered for a small-diameter cartridge can handle higher pressures because (well, duh) the holes are smaller, leaving thicker walls to contain the pressure..

I agree with all the statements made by Rocky Raab involving the risks (dangers) in extrapolation of loading data based on "guesses". I agree that thicker chamber walls will allow higher SAAMI. That was exactly my point in posting the .327 MAG SAMMI PSI. I believe that SAAMI is based on estimations of gun safety and then case strength within that gun. The 45,000 psi is safe for a Ruger SP 101 and yet it is also the limit for the GP 100 and finally for my Blackhawk. The amount of steel surrounding the cartridges is clearly NOT the same.

The.44 Mag has a SAAMI of 36,000 and the .44 Special 15,500. Same size holes, Same square inches of case face pushing on the cylinder. If I want to shoot a 44 Special cartridge in a gun chambered to shoot .44 Mag (my model 29 smith), can I load the .44 special casing to 36,000 psi?

Another part of the safety issue now arises. How Strong is the case construction. What is the manufatured cases ability to contain above SAAMI pressure if a catridge case is fired in a "safe" cylinder.

There is separate loading data for a 45-70 in a Trapdoor, a Modern Lever Gun, and a Ruger or Highwall singleshot action. Should there be seperate loading data for .44 special depending on the gun? This could get ridiculous.

Unless I am really interested in experimenting to achieve a specific outcome, I believe it is Safest to stay with the books. Next safest, reduce proven recommended or historical loads by 10 - 15 percent and watch for pressure signs in my gun as I work up to the recommended or historical load.

When I work up a load in my gun, I always consider the risks vs outcome. How important is my best outcome versus my risk? If I truly need more power from my .44 for a situation, why not holster up my .44 mag instead of my .44 special.

My 2 cents. thanks rc

[Rocky Raab]

Thanks, my friend. I was also summarizing things as I see them.

Your rhetorical question about loading Special cases to Magnum pressures goes back to the almost endless thread about hyper-P 38 Special loads in 357 magnum guns. And the bottom line is still the same: it isn't safe because of the chance of those rounds finding their way into a weaker gun.

Several cartridges already have multiple data sections delineated for different guns, the 45 Colt being just one example. That's an excellent way to minimize the performance loss when using only the weakest gun ever made as the load safety determinant -- provided people can and do read the cautionary notes. (Lots of people DON'T read safety warnings or instructions, but that's not my worry. It makes for entertaining Darwin Awards.)

Between us, that's four cents.

[rhouser]

I am still on line so I want to take this chance to thank you for your 4 cents. I had completely neglected the issue of cross gun safety. You are absolutely correct about that as a real world consideration.

Your cross gun safety issue is the exactly what I am facing with my .327 MAG Blackhawk and 32HR Mag Marlin levergun. I don't want to carry two different cartridges when I am "afield". I am trying to balance the strength of the actions with the HR Mag cartridge casings. I am working above HRM pressures because the rifle will take it, but, below 32 Fed pressures because the rifle and casing might not take it. I am using the rifle pressure signs to limit the handgun pressures. I may be best served by reaming the 32 Mag rifle to 32 Fed Mag case lengths, but, that opens another whole can of worms.

This is a fascinating issue but as you say, may have been beaten to death. Please accept my comments as being meant only to adjunct your extremely accurate and responsible position. I look forward to your posts, because, you clearly speak from experience.
respectfully rc

[Rocky Raab]

I don't want to stray too far off topic, but it may not be as simple as re-chambering the Marlin. Lever guns are often very finicky feeders, with cartridge length being a (or THE) major issue. All things considered, it may be simpler and cheaper to just carry both rounds. You probably get 327 performance from the rifle's longer barrel, anyway. So the "on target" result would be about the same with 327 revolver or 32 rifle.

[dougader]

I appreciate the information here. I have been loading my own for about 25 years or so. I always figured I could get by with my beloved 45 Colt. Love it. Love it. Love it.

Then Lispeys came out with the limited release Ruger 44 Special Flattop. I still held out. Bought one just as an investment. Never even had dies for 44 Special. Inspected the gun, made sure it was well oiled and put it away. Then the new Ruger catalog came out and they've listed the 44 special FT as a regular item.

So I immiediately listed the 44 FT for sale and made a quick $85 on ths sale. But, wouldn't you know it, I have been missing that little 44 FT ever since! I saw some dies for cheap and bought them several months ago. Then I ordered some cast bullets, 1k each from 2 different companies; a 240 swc. Then, a week or so ago, I saw one of the Ruger Bisley 44 FT's and I had to have it.

I haven't even fired it yet and it's already one of my favorites. It really feels near perfect in my hand. Just got the Starline brass delivered to the doorstep this afternoon. Starting with W231 and see where we are and go from there.

Thanks again for all the information.