Plagiarism/Attribution

[joeb33050]

Charles Hamilton over at the CB-L has accused me of plagiarism and using what others have written without permission. The table below shows what's in the book today and who wrote it. You can see what's in the book in FILES at
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/CB-BOOK/
I believe that I got permission to use each of these articles and messages before putting them in the book. If I'm wrong and you want me to delete what you've written, or to change what you've written, please respond here or to me at joeb33050@yahoo.com. I will delete or change that part immediately.
Thanks for your indulgance, sorry if I used your work without permission.
joe brennan



John Alexander 3.3.1, 6.11, 6.15, 6.6.2, 7.11, 8.1
John Ardito 2.1.5.2
Forrest Asmus 2.1.5.2, 4.2.2, 7.11, 8.3
2520 ASSRA Appendix-Rust
38-55 ASSRA 7.11.1
40 Rod ASSRA 7.11
Andy ASSRA Appendix-Rust
Boats ASSRA 7.11
KWK ASSRA 7.17
Marlinguy ASSRA 7.11
Scheutzen ASSRA 7.11
Scheutzendave ASSRA 6.5.2
Tommy ASSRA 7.11
Voyageur ASSRA 6.5.2
Bruce Bannister 3.4
David Berry 3.2.2
John Bischoff 2.1.5, 3.3.3.1, 4.2, 5.3.3, 6.2.2, 6.2.4, 6.2.6, 6.4, 7.11, 7.17
Jim Borton 7.17
Jeff Bowles 5.4
Ric Bowman 2.4, 2.5, 3.2.3, 3.3.2, 3.4.3, 4.2, 6.1.2,
Ric Bowman 6.10, 6.2.5, 6.2.7.1, 7.17, Appendix-Rust
Paul Brasky 7.11, 8.4.1
Jeff Brown 7.2, 8.4.1, 8.4.2, 8.4.6, Appendix
George B. Carpenter 6.2.6, 7.11.1
James Carter 3.2.1
44 Man Cast Boolits 4.2, 8.4.1
454 PB Cast Boolits 4.2
Bass Ackwards Cast Boolits 6.5.1
Black Prince Cast Boolits 8.4.1
Blackwater Cast Boolits 7.11
Boom Boom Cast Boolits 7.11
Chargar Cast Boolits 2.5
Deputy Al Cast Boolits 4.2
Frank Cast Boolits 2.5

[joeb33050]

Grumble Cast Boolits 7.18
Keith Cast Boolits 6.2.5
Mike in CO Cast Boolits 7.11
MT Weatherman Cast Boolits 7.11
Newboy Cast Boolits 7.17
NV Curmudgeon Cast Boolits 6.2.7.1
Nyack Kid Cast Boolits 7.11
Remington Raider Cast Boolits 8.4.1
WBH Cast Boolits 8.4.1
Skyler Child 4.2
Dave Daniels 6.2.6
Barry Darr 5.4
Charlie Dell 6.3.2, Appendix
John Dickson 7.17
Junior Doughty 5.4
R. Dupraz Appendix-Rust
Harry Eales 8.4.12
Joe Entrekin 6.13
James Evitts 4.4.1
Miles Fenton 8.4.1
Larry Gibson 6.2.7.1
John Goins 3.4.2, 4.2
Dave Goodrich 3.3.7, 3.3.8, 6.2.6, 8.4.1, Appendix-Rust
Charles Graff 7.18
Tom Gray 4.2, 4.4.1, 4.6, 6.2.2, 6.5.1
Willis Gregory 3.2.3
Scott Hamilton 4.4.1
Jeroen Hogema 7.2.4, 7.5
Don Howe 3.3.2
Dan Hudson 4.2, 4.4.1, 7.17
Claris Hyett 8.1.6
Pat Iffland 7.11, 9.4.3
William Iorg 4.5
Tom Ireland 6.2.6
Keith Johnson 6.5.2
Norm Johnson 4.4.0, 6.12, 6.2.5, 6.6.8, 6.6.8.4
David Kaiser 2.1.4
Urban Kvensler Appendix
Jacob Lancaster 6.2.6
Glenn Latham 4.2, 4.4.1
Jerry Liles 6.2.6
Don Loops 3.2.3
Paul A. Matthews 8.4.8
Dale McGee 5.4, 6.14, 6.2.6, 6.6.8.4
Bill McGraw 2.15, 2.5, 3.2.3, 3.3.2, 3.3.9, 4.2, 4.4.1, 6.1,
Bill McGraw 6.2.1, 6.5.1, 6.6, 6.6.2, 6.6.3, 6.7, 7.11, 8.7
Duane Mellenbruch 6.2.6
Jesse Miller 6.6.5.1, 6.8, 7.13, 8.1.5
Val Miller 9.XX
Ken Mollohan 2.1.2, 2.5, 3.2.4, 3.4, 3.4.1, 4.5, 4.5.1, 5.0,
Ken Mollohan 5.3.3, 5.3.7, 5.4, 5.5, 6.10, 6.2.1, 6.2.2, 6.2.3,
Ken Mollohan 6.2.4, 6.2.5, 6.2.6, 6.2.7, 6.5, 6.5.2,
Ken Mollohan 6.9, 7.12, 7.18, 7.3, 7.3.1, 7.3.5, 7.4.1, 8.7, Appendix
L. F. Moore I can find it!
Al MSN BPCR 8.4.1
High Wall Jack MSN BPCR 8.4.1
John MSN BPCR 8.4.1
Kurt MSN BPCR 8.4.1
Al Nyhus 6.13
Warren Page
Bruce Peglow 6.7.3
John Pierce Jr. 3.3.2
Adrian Pitfield 3.3.2, 6.6.8.1, 6.6.8.2, 6.6.8.3
Harry Pope 7.7
Hal Prucha 9.XX
Rudi Prusok 7.5
Stephen Ricciardelli 6.2.7
Ned Roberts 8.4.13
John Robinson 2.5, 3.3.2, 4.2, 7.18
Pete Schroeder 6.3.1
Robert N. Sears 6.11
Brady Sharpshooters 7.7.3
Rick Shepardson 6.5.2
Wayne Smith 3.3.2
Bob Steinberg 6.6.7
Ed Stutz 8.4.1
R. J. Talley 8.4.1
Dan Theodore 2.1.5.3
Timuchin THR 8.4.5.1
Dick Trenk 8.4.1, 8.4.4.1
Richard Tunnell 4.1.1
John Wagner 3.4.3
Bill Warner 6.2.6, 7.11
Frank Washam 3.2.3
Kenny Wasserburger 7.17
Joe Weist 3.4.3
Kim Williams 6.5.2
Ed Wosika 6.2.7.1
Al Young 7.6
Geoff 6.5.2
MI State Archives 6.7.3
Nighthunter 4.2
Stew 6.5.2

[montana_charlie]

I think Charles Hamilton (who is not one of your contributors) has too much free time on his hands...plus, he is probably one of the many who like to give you a hard time when you ask your questions.
CM

[Junior1942]

Joe, thicken your skin and let some things go in one ear and out of the other ear. You're doing a good thing.

[454PB]

I see I'm on your list. I figure anything I post on a public forum, including photos, is public domain. Some people seem to get easily upset.

[trk]

What's the difference between plagerism and research? Footnotes.

Joe it appears you have been meticulous in gathering permissions. Drive on.

[9.3X62AL]

You are welcome to use anything I've posted. As 454 Pb stated, it's public domain--and nothing I've posted is copyrighted by me. I have strived to attribute authorship any time I've quoted or paraphrased text or statement.

[tom barthel]

If I ever come up wiyh something worth repeating, feel free to repeat it. You don't even need to credit me for anything. If I ever say something repeatable and it's repeated, I'll just say thinks. Most of us form our opinions based on something we heard or read in the past anyway. So what? I like the information I get here. Don't care who had the origional thought.
Please understand, there are people who just like to complain. Their favorite song seems to be "Poor-poor-pitiful me". They seen to desire all the recognition they can get. It's sad people are so insecure. You seem to be a reasonable person. If someone reads the work and finds something wrong, they can point it out to you. It's sad a disclaimor is needed to express opinions. Don't sweat it.

[Char-Gar]

Joe.. You have my permission to use anything I have said, posted or written any time anywhere. Chargar and Charles Graff are one in the same person... das me. Good luck with the book. The first one was first class and I consider it to be the best single book every written on cast bullets. You are to be congradulated for this mamoth effort and not sniped at by folks who can't or won't do the same.

[13Echo]

I'm surprised you found anything I've posted worth using but I'm delighted to have you use it. Anything I post on this or other lists my be used with my permission. Attribute it to me if it's good stuff and don't mention my name if it's bogus.

Jerry Liles

[trk]

Charles Hamilton over at the CB-L has accused me of plagiarism and using what others have written without permission.
...


That's a serious accusation, especially if done in public. If he's wrong, that could be considered slander.

Did he mention any specifics, or was he just blowing smoke?

[carpetman]

Who wrote the definition for headspace?

[Jetwrench]

Joe, just tell him to stick it up his sizeing die. You did it right. JETWRENCH

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

just consider the source...I have yet to see anything he has posted that I would want to use...or even repeat. Anything I have ever posted anywhere is fair game. If it's that important I'll write an article myself.

Rich

[Char-Gar]

The man did not slander you...slander is spoken. What he did was commit libel. They are both forms of defamation, but one is spoken and the other is written.

Plagerism is claiming another man's thoughts and words as your own. If correct attribution is given (with or without permission) there is no plagerism.

Stuff thrown out on these kinds of forums are not protected by copyright laws and are in the public domain and no permission is required.

[trk]

It's good to know the correct definitions of those words! (NOTHING ELSE implied).

Thanks, Chargar!

[Char-Gar]

trk.. I have been accused of being "anal" when it comes to the proper use of words and that may be true. Most of the time.. "well, you know what I mean" is close enought.

But there are times when close, is not good enough. Fortunes have been won and lost, wars fought and lives wasted because of a misunderstanding over words.

Even with carefully chosen and honed words, misunderstanding often occurs. Sometimes with very unplesant results.

Words are important as they are the basis for all human relationships.

[leftiye]

The last time anyone had an idea that someone else had not already thunk- I think that was either Aristotle, or maybe Plato?

[versifier]

The very few times I have posted any of my own copywritten work (articles, poetry, etc.), it is clearly labeled as such, with my real name, and intended only to identify me as the author. I would reasonably expect that anyone who might want to use such material elsewhere would give me appropriate credit.

I have only once in my life had work stolen/plagiarized, and as there was no way I could prove it at that time (it was from an unpublished and unfinished manuscript), I just had to eat it and go on with my life. The work was taken and used as lyrics in a song that became and remains one often played on the "classic" R&R stations. Because, as a teenager, I not only did not understand anything about copyright laws at the time and was also too naive to realize the dangers of letting just anybody have copies of work-in-progress, I got a good lesson in the way the world works. I can still be sued if I mention in print the song/band and make any claim to authorship of the parts of it that were stolen from me. The only positive part of the whole incident was the fact that I have the personal satisfaction of knowing the song went platinum, even if someone else's name is on it. Live and learn.

But, here and now, I expect that anything else I post in a public forum not labeled as a copywritten work in my real name is in the public domain and can be used regardless of whether or not I am identified. I may even, at some point in the future, use my own and other members postings on this and other fora as part of articles and longer works. I believe that if and when I do, I have an obligation to identify what parts I myself have written, and to identify others at least by the "net names" under which they have posted. I look upon this as more a matter of honor than one of legality, but like everything else in today's world, there are always legal ramifications to be considered and addressed.

Joe asked specifically for help on his book, and many were glad to contribute items he felt were worthwhile enough to include. There is nothing illegal about that, and nothing wrong about it either. As to the accusation of alleged plagiarism, the accuser himself would do well to remember the old saying:

"Please be sure brain is engaged before putting mouth into gear."

Personally, I think Joe is owed an apology.

[Char-Gar]

Versifier... I have several works of fiction floating around in the ether. I am hoping somebody will steal one of them and make a movie out of it. You see, I filed a copy with the Library of Congress and there can be no question as to when and who thunk it up. I just hope it wins a bunch of Oscars and make hundreds of millions of dollars...then I will pounce!

[9.3X62AL]

I am among those that owe Mr. Brennan an apology for words posted here--specifically, referring to his text as "arrogant" and "insensitive".

I regret those words greatly, and ask both Mr. Brennan's and the group's indulgence in hearing out my explanation.

Like others have mentioned in various threads here, I visit this board as a fellow hobbyist to learn and to assist others in this hobby field. I have also used my visits as a "bolt-hole", digital escape from the slings and arrows of everyday life.

Over time, I have noted that Mr. Brennan's (joeb33050) posts have attracted a bit of negative feedback within their threads. Not the crime of the century, for sure. It happens. Mr. Brennan's "no-nonsense" and direct manner of phrasing might rub folks the wrong way on occasion, but things like that aren't meat for the moderators in most cases. Being insistent or persistent is NOT the same as being abusive.

I'm not speaking for the other admins and moderators here, only for myself. There have been actions by a very few posters that required extreme administrative action, and those actions are neither taken lightly nor enjoyed by those of us taking them. In my role as a "referee" here, I strive for fairness and decency within my own limited ability to discern same. I strive to do likewise as a poster and member. In this instance, I have failed on both fronts in my post regarding Mr. Brennan's text.

I over-reacted to Mr. Brennan's post concerning the weather in his home area. Please know that while I live in inland southern California, on Sunday night/Monday morning our low temperature was 7* above zero. My heater failed that night, and remains down until next week--the ancient *** needs special-ordered parts, and was not designed for temps as low as those prevailing locally for the past 7-10 days. Lawn irrigation pipes also burst, and presently there is still a 30 ft-wide shallow frozen pond in my back yard. It is receding, a little. In short, I have a mess to contend with--I am cold, and have been so for nearly a week--and was in that same condition at the time I read JoeB's news about balmy Florida. I let my spleen rather than my mind hit the keyboard, and I regret this greatly.

I sincerely apologize to Joe Brennan personally--and to the membership at large generally--for this posting. I was wrong, and I feel badly about it.

Allen Paine

[kywoodwrkr]

Versifier,
Your situation is reminiscence of the song "Freight Train" written by Elizabeth Cotten.
Some evil folks tried to steal that song from her.
She was able to prove authorship by displaying very early versions of the song and providing witnesses who had witnessed her playing/singing it.
Why someone would steal from such a gentle woman, I'll never know.
Well, yes I would, it's spelled $$$!
Can't remember if it was the Seeger family who helped her gain control or if she did it on her own. Maybe they were the ones who tried to cabbage onto it when she was working for them, I can't remember.
Was too long ago I encountered the situation.
Comes under the category of CRS I guess.
Anyhooo. Good luck with your ongoing endeavors.
DaveP

[joeb33050]

Thank you all for the kind words so far.
I don't want to argue, but arguing follows me about, and maybe some truth is squozen out.
Anyhow, I've got to get the writers an opportunity to get their work withdrawn, only one so far.
That's exactly what this is about, not trying to get a fight going. If I make a good faith effort to offer the withdrawal, that should be enough for most.
Thanks;
joe b.

[NVcurmudgeon]

joeb, you are welcome to use any nuggets you find within the dross of most of my posts. I daresay that it would be cumbersome to attribute individual contributors, but a plug for the Cast Boolit Board would be nice.

[Nueces]

Joe B - I've just discovered your work-in-progress through this thread and have no other knowledge of any 'history' with other posters. Bravo for stepping up to archive modern collective experience with the cast bullet. Most of us recall the decades of oft-repeated BS that we endured when getting into this fascinating subject and the sense that much real knowledge had died with the old practitioners. In truth, efforts such as yours and the members of this board have shown that THIS is the golden age of the cast bullet. Let's roll in it! Especially here, where those who like to send digital farts-under-the-covers around the net are most definitely NOT in charge. And I like the way you keep your head up.

Al P - Well said. And another salute your way. We all make messes and the men among us clean 'em up. Speaking for myself, I'm glad to know a man who can step back and recover like you have. And, I think that it's that sort of straight talk from you and the other folks who moderate this board that have made it the only place on the web that I gladly look forward to visiting. (Sure hope you recover from that mess soon)

I'm talking now to everyone here, when I say, Thanks, Guys, for making this board what it is.

Mark

[floodgate]

joe:

Don't lose any sleep over CH's comments - he reminds me of "Jim Dandy" on the old "Shooter's" Savage Board. He jumped me for mentioning a .30-40 on another Board - said it would encourage beginners to load 40-grs. Bullseye. I asked him how he felt about the .250-3000 Savage, but he never answered.

Personally, I disagree on the "headspace" discussion (mine is, "excess headspace is where your case is shorter - for whatever reason - than the chamber"), but I thinkk we were getting just TOO pedantic. If your book gives us a "working" definition we can all conform to, that's fine with me. I treasure your first book. That was a VERY HANDSOME apology from Al; one of Nature's real gentlemen.

Doug

[versifier]

The power of positive thinking! :drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

I should add here--I also treasured Joe's first book. I wish like h--l I would have had it when I started casting.

Thanks kindly, Doug.

[bravokilo]

floodgate:

"Personally, I disagree on the "headspace" discussion (mine is, "excess headspace is where your case is shorter - for whatever reason - than the chamber"), but I thinkk we were getting just TOO pedantic."

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!! That works for me!! But then maybe *I* have too much "head clearance".

Al- I will send out a THANK YOU to you also. I'm not as confused now :mrgreen:! I just couldn't see why you slammed Joe when there were 2 other posters [smilie=1: that were a bit more......harsh shall we say. It was good of you to review things when you were in a better frame of mind. I hope things are improving for you! If you want to see cold though you should stop over here for a while!

BK

[bravokilo]

I should add here--I also treasured Joe's first book. I wish like h--l I would have had it when I started casting.

Thanks kindly, Doug.

I just joined the CBA a few days ago (been meaning to for years) so I will soon be able to enjoy Joe's work first hand. Unfortunately I will probably be of the same opinion as you, I coulda used it 30 yrs ago! Ah well, better late than never.

BK

[Nueces]

Hokay, fellas, here's one of my ignernts...

Please steer me to Joe B's 'first book', title please, to be followed by a web search.

Thanks, Mark

[wills]

“Just got my latest issue of the Fouling Shot (the magazine put out by the Cast Bullet Assoc.) and they have reduced the cost of subscription to $17 from $20 per year, or down to $30 for 2 years. Also they will include a copy of Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert by Joseph F Brennan Jr.”


http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12654&sid=a7622ff2ab1e7a32621d3d64e2581570

This may be it

[bravokilo]

Hokay, fellas, here's one of my ignernts...

Please steer me to Joe B's 'first book', title please, to be followed by a web search.

Thanks, Mark

I didn't check the shilohrifle link but this should work...

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/

BK

[Nueces]

Thanks, Guys. Checked both and got no joy. I think I'll just wait for da man hisself to clue me.

[Frank46]

Joe, received your first book some time ago, and yes I'm a CBA member. Enjoyed reading it very much. Looks like you have a lot of information coming up in the second book. Frank

[omgb]

Gee, I kinda liked what I said. Shoot, I believed it then and I still do now. Feel free to quote me any time unless I am found drinking on Pacific Coast Highway and slander minorities. In that case, just stick a fork in me.......I'm done.:(

[wills]

Thanks, Guys. Checked both and got no joy. I think I'll just wait for da man hisself to clue me.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/memb/index.php?crn=199


Join
The Cast Bullet Association
TODAY!
When you join the Cast Bullet Association you are joining an organization of dedicated shooters who enjoy casting and shooting cast bullets and want to learn more. Whether your interest is hunting, competition, cowboy action shooting, casual shooting or just experimenting with cast bullets, you can benefit from membership in the Cast Bullet Association.

As a member in Good Standing you receive:
Membership Packet and Membership Card.
6 Issues per year of The Fouling Shot Journal - Our bi-monthly publication filled with tips, how-to's and match results.
You are able to compete in registered Cast Bullet Association Benchrest, Military and Postal Matches.
For a limited time you get Joe Brennan's Book, "Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert" which is chucked full of information no cast bullet shooter should be without. ( Normally sold for $11.95)

NEW! You can now get an Associate Membership for your spouse for only $3.00 per year! Your spouse can now enjoy all of the benefits of a Cast Bullet Association membership, compete in benchrest, military and postal matches and have their scores published in the Fouling Shot Journal.


Membership in the Cast Bullet Association has never been more affordable! Your membership in the Cast Bullet Association can be a low as $17.00 per year, $30.00 for two years! (see chart below) Your membership includes your subscription to the Fouling Shot, the ability to compete in registered events and for a limited time you receive the ultimate cast bullet book, "Cast Bullets For Beginner And Expert" by Joe Brennan.


JOIN NOW, CLICK HERE!

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/memb/index.php?crn=199

[klw]

Charles Hamilton over at the CB-L has accused me of plagiarism and using what others have written without permission.

That is TRULY an understatement!

[omgb]

That is TRULY an understatement!


I'm not sure I am following your intent. Are you claiming he's right or that he runs off at the mouth?

[klw]

I'm not sure I am following your intent. Are you claiming he's right or that he runs off at the mouth?

What I do know is that he is VERY emotional about this. The facts and history I'm largely unaware of and, truthfully, not much interested in. BUT I do know that this is a very emotional subject for him. That is NOT second hand knowledge.

[omgb]

Got it, thanks.

[NVcurmudgeon]

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/memb/index.php?crn=199



http://www.castbulletassoc.org/memb/index.php?crn=199

Also, if you join the CBA you can avail yourself of the very precision, free, slug
measuring service provided by O.H. McHagen. He has all the special mikes and has measured .303 British and S&W five grooves, as well as a seven groove Remington M141 for me.

[Nueces]

Thanks, All

Wills, I notice I hear better when I listen with my ears open. Thanks for the 'full monte' link.

NVcurmudgeon, I was a member of CBA years ago and fell off the list when moving or sumpin - no good excuse. I promise to rejoin. :)

I know about that feller's project for mearuring 5-land boolits, too, always credited him with being a great resource. For years, I used a little 108-degree v-block I made to a design in one of the Handloader's Digests. Fiddly to use well, so, last month, on eBay, I scored a sweet Starrett 5-land mike, for cheap. When I retire in a few months, along with making a few lead hammers for plumbous-challenged pounders on this forum, maybe I can also offer slug measuring services. Just think what grand party conversation all this would make. :mrgreen:

Mark
Thawed, for now