Is 12 BHN too soft?

[MikeACP]

Is 12 too soft for .45 ACP?

[williamwaco]

No. It is fine.
Any where from 10 to 15 will work great.

I have used 18 and see no advantage.
Linotype at 22 is too hard.
(Too hard doesn't mean "causes problems", it means significant waste of expensive tin and antimony.)

[MikeACP]

Good, Thank you.

[R.M.]

Just a FYI, I use 230gr RN @850 that are 8-!0 BHN. No lead what-so-ever. The 45 ACP is very forgiving.

[MtGun44]

Most guns will shot soft alloys in .45 ACP well. Some revolvers have extremely shallow
rifling and may have issues with soft alloys, but it is woth a try.

Bill

[Bret4207]

DO yourself a favor and forget the stupid Bhn. Work with what you have and you'll be happy. Bhn is mostly an advertising sales gimmick.

[white eagle]

DO yourself a favor and forget the stupid Bhn. Work with what you have and you'll be happy. Bhn is mostly an advertising sales gimmick.
Like Bret said
its nice to know the bhn of your alloy but
is one number better than another
I doubt it .............:lol:

[noylj]

Fit is number one.
Lube is number two.
BHN may be number 8 or 9, not sure.

[gray wolf]

I can't add any more wisdom other than what's been said.
So I will just take a post count on this one.
Well shoot I got to add some-thin, >>>>>>>> FIT, FIT, FIT<<<<<<<<<<

[stubshaft]

I shoot alot of 45 ACP that runs 8 - 9 bhn. Fit IS important but so is barrel condition. You can't get good accuracy with a [edit] barrel.

[cbrick]

Is 12 too soft for .45 ACP?

12 BHN is as hard as I shoot the 45, mostly 8-10 but for HP's 10 is max and a bit softer is even better.

Don't get caught up in the "hardcast" hype, it's not needed and if bullet fit isn't perfect can and will cause it's own problems.

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

what are you doing with it. If its for plinking and just general shooting 12 bhn is just fine but my comp loads are usually done out of 18-20 bhn. The 12s will work fine and probalby wont lead or have any other major problems but ive owned many 1911s through the years and all of them have given there best accuracy with properly fitted and lubed bullets of between 18-20. My prefered alloy is a minimun of #2 and perferably 5050 ww/lyno if i have enough linotype. Problem is its getting hard to find and i may have to use water dropped ww in its place.

[PacMan]

As has been mentioned fit is very important but not the bottom line. If fit was was every thing everyone would be shooting is pure lead in all their guns and loads.

Hardness does matter and BHN is a very usefull way of measuring it.

[Potsy]

I've used straight WW and water dropped WW (actually heated to 450deg. in a toaster oven and quenched) in my Kimber and couldn't tell much difference with me shooting it.
Molds involved were a Lee 200grn, Miha's 200grn H&G 68, and a Lee 230TC. All were sized .452.
I will continue to quench the 230's as they may need to break a little bone (unfortunately, they haven't had to yet) on a hog, deer, etc. Even that may be a moot point. I just like knowing they're up to the task.
A .45ACP doesn't build enough pressure to really justify real hard bullets.
I used to worry about noses being beat up on the feed ramp, but I've never noticed that being and issue. Somebody that knows more about a 1911 than I do might elaborate on that.

[MikeACP]

These are plinking rounds,maybe an IDPA shoot on occasion. Great info guys thanks. This place is such a good education.

[JIMinPHX]

12 is plenty hard for a .45ACP. In fact I would not want to go much harder than that. A few points softer would not be a bad thing in most cases.

[Bret4207]

As has been mentioned fit is very important but not the bottom line. If fit was was every thing everyone would be shooting is pure lead in all their guns and loads.

Hardness does matter and BHN is a very usefull way of measuring it.

Fit is #1, it's King. That doesn't mean you can shoot pure lead at 2800FPS (although some here do using a PP IIRC!). It means no matter how hard your alloy the boolit still has to fit or you go nowhere fast. Those that believe Bhn will cure all their problems are always disappointed in the end if the boolit doens't fit in the first place.

[PacMan]

Fit is #1, it's King. That doesn't mean you can shoot pure lead at 2800FPS (although some here do using a PP IIRC!). It means no matter how hard your alloy the boolit still has to fit or you go nowhere fast. Those that believe Bhn will cure all their problems are always disappointed in the end if the boolit doens't fit in the first place.

Once again i agree that fit is important and if you want to use #1 King or what ever that is fine with me.
I understand that the bullet has to fit the gun but i also contend that different alloys/hardness of bullets react differently using the same gun and load.

I will agree that fit is king but not that fit is the complete package.And somtimes it seems that is what you imply when you completely toss bullet hardness out the door.

[Lloyd Smale]

my buddy and i once did a test. We shot 7 differnt 1911s and two model 25 smiths. We used both 3.8 grains of bullseye and 4.6 grains of aa2 all with fed primers. We shot 4 different swc designs and shot them all with 5050 pure ww, ww, #2 and 5050 ww/lineotype. We shot 2 six shot groups with each combination. We had only one load in one gun that didnt do its best with either #2 or 5050 ww/lino. My 4 inch commander sized kimber shot one bullet cast out of ww better then anything. None of the guns shot near as well with the 5050 ww/pure alloy. All bullets were sized to 452 and lubed with felix lube. I know this test doest put anything written in stone to the argument but it sure shows that they have a tendency to shoot harder bullets better. Like i said if a 1/4 inch reduction in group size doesnt mean anything to you shoot them with whatever but when i shoot in compitition just knowing my guns are shoot the best they possibly can no doubt adds to my scores. A 1/4 inch in group sizes means many hits on the lines are now a lower score. Ill go so far as to say its a rare instance when a softer alloy does better then a hard one in any gun if all the tolarances are what they should be and the bullet is sized properly for the gun. This opinion comes from thosands of hours on the bench not from some internet chatter or some article wrote 3o years ago about how bullets have to bump up to work. I think if doubters would take a GOOD gun and try the test themselves theyd come up with the same opinion.

[cbrick]

I dunno Lloyd, 9 different guns and .452" sizing was just the ticket for every single one of them?
I have trouble finding two different firearms that like the same size bullet.

Perhaps this test would have turned out a bit different if each firearm had the bullets sized to it's own preference.

Rick

[MtGun44]

Of all the calibers that I load, .45 ACP seems to have by far the most consistent barrel
dimensions across brands, decades and designs - when we are talking semi-autos,
not revolvers. I can see .452 or .453 working real well for almost all .45 ACP semi-autos.

I don't doubt that a bit harder when perfectly fitted might get a slightly better grip on the
rifling and shoot a touch better. The main issue for most is reasonably good accy and no
leading rather than a load that is 1/4" tighter at 25yds than another.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

you dont have much choise in a 45 acp when loading it for a 1911. 452 will about allways outshoot 451 and 453 may shoot better is some guns but most of them wont run them reliably the only guns in this test that might have benifited from a larger bullet are the 25 smiths. But this wasnt a test to see what the gun shot the best or what size bullet shot the best it was a comparison in how differnt alloys shot in these guns. To make that comparison fair a guy had to use the same bullets and lube and powders and primers in each gun to eliminate any variations changing one of the would have caused. There was definately enough consistancy in the results of this test to make me a beliver. JUst for grins at the same time we both looked through all our loading data for these guns and found the best loads for all of them used hard bullets. My records arent the best as i lost some in the fire but my buddy Al has reams of data on loading for the 45. John Paul Jones was the west coast distributor for star loading equiptment back in the day and a avid bullseye and ppc shooter. Not local yoko matches like i shoot, he shot against the best. He once told me that just about anyone that shot comp with him that didnt do it with jackted bullets used lead bullets and but used cast, bought or casted there own and insisted on lineotype bullets. He said the deformed less on the feed ramp and grabbed the rifling better,didnt deform from the pressure of the powder charge going off and just plain shot better. Like MTGUN 44 said if getting the absolute best accuracy out of your gun doesnt matter cast them softer as hard alloys are getting expensive and even me for most of my practicing use bullets cast out of an alloy just slightly harder the ww and save the good bullets for matches. But dont think for a minute you bullets casted out of 8bhn lead are going to give you the best possible accuracy you can get.
I dunno Lloyd, 9 different guns and .452" sizing was just the ticket for every single one of them?
I have trouble finding two different firearms that like the same size bullet.

Perhaps this test would have turned out a bit different if each firearm had the bullets sized to it's own preference.

Rick

[Bret4207]

Once again i agree that fit is important and if you want to use #1 King or what ever that is fine with me.
I understand that the bullet has to fit the gun but i also contend that different alloys/hardness of bullets react differently using the same gun and load.

I will agree that fit is king but not that fit is the complete package.And somtimes it seems that is what you imply when you completely toss bullet hardness out the door.

Then you are reading what I write incorrectly. Bhn, or rather alloy makeup since we can have 3 different alloys with different characteristics at the same Bhn or one alloy treated differently to give 3 different Bhn reading, has an effect. But worrying about Bhn before fit, before seating damage, before improper loading procedures or powder choice or some other things is like putting 104 octane in your truck and expecting that to fix the 4 flat tires. I'd guess 99% of the time I preach fit it's to noobies who have read all the advertisements for HARDCAST and who make the seemingly logical assumption that all they need is harder lead to make the inaccurate gun shoot 1" groups and to stop leading. It won't, no way, no how, unless it fits.

So while you're right that Bhn/alloy is part of it, so are a lot of other things that are sold as "magic fixes". There is no magic Bhn, lube, powder, filler, design, mould release, hair tonic or anything else. It's a progression of logical steps and in this game it ALWAYS starts with fit, static and dynamic. Static comes first and dynamic comes second. Bhn is part of dynamic fit.

Hope that clears it up.

[PacMan]

Ok now we have defined fit as more than dimensional and i agree that fit is King or #1.

Just some pictures of groups shot with the 150gr OWC in an up modified GP100. Two of the targets are of ACWW and three are WDWW. The gun has a tight throat in one chamber that the pictures will show. Two of the targets show 5 shots not using the thght throat.Waste of lead and powder.

Getting close to a good fit.

[cajun shooter]

I agree with you 100% Bret. It seems that a lot of the newer members are putting too much concern on the BHN when it is only a piece of the puzzle.
When you take time to understand that they have other pieces that are bigger and much more important. A revolver that is a 38 special and the bore is slugged at .357 and you load it with 158 gr bullets that are .355 in size and have a BHN of 10, what will be the outcome? The BHN is correct but the size is wrong and may cause leading and shotgun looking targets. As far as the 45 ACP goes, just look down the barrel and it will be hard to see the lands and grooves. A harder bullet performs better than a softer one in this case. The firearm being used is what gives you the type of bullet needed for the best results.

[Bret4207]

Ok now we have defined fit as more than dimensional and i agree that fit is King or #1.

Just some pictures of groups shot with the 150gr OWC in an up modified GP100. Two of the targets are of ACWW and three are WDWW. The gun has a tight throat in one chamber that the pictures will show. Two of the targets show 5 shots not using the thght throat.Waste of lead and powder.

Getting close to a good fit.

Yup, and now if you really want to get into to it, you have to puzzle out WHY the WQ works better with that load! Would another powder change things? A different alloy at a lower Bhn? Would a larger or smaller boolit or a different brand case or maybe a different mould of the same design from the same maker react differently? It's good that you found something that works, but the "why?" bugs me. I have my theories, but I just don't have the time to prove them out one way or the other.

[PacMan]

Yea i guess i could spend the time working it out just not real sure why at this point. The bullets biggest use for me is small game and pest control around the hous or camp. Because of the large meplat size i am not sure i want any expansion which the WQ bullets should help with that.

Actually the 5.7 gr of HP-38 was a book load and the only one i have really tried.Hopes are that a little tweeking will tighten up the groups. Still need to open up the one throat a little and maybe a little fire laping. There seems to be a slight restriction at the frame and there is a little leading in the forcing cone.Not much but a little. Wont do any alpping untill i work with some other loads.
Dont fix what ant broke.

[Lloyd Smale]

revolvers give you much more latitude in sizing. Like i said with 45acps you about have your choice of 451 or 452. Anything bigger and youll have feeding problems unless you have sloppy gun. anything smaller and there rattling down the barrel. I dont have any 1911s that feed 453 bullets a 100 percent. So if fit is critical in a 1911 you cant really do a thing about it anyway. I have shot 453 through guns and like i said they didnt run a 100 percent and accuracy was no better then 452. So unless you guys know some majic thing about bullet size in a 1911 id say its not even worth talking about.
Ok now we have defined fit as more than dimensional and i agree that fit is King or #1.

Just some pictures of groups shot with the 150gr OWC in an up modified GP100. Two of the targets are of ACWW and three are WDWW. The gun has a tight throat in one chamber that the pictures will show. Two of the targets show 5 shots not using the thght throat.Waste of lead and powder.

Getting close to a good fit.

[Char-Gar]

I have a pretty long history with the 1911 pistol in 45 ACP and cast bullets. Maybe 250,000 rounds through more than a dozen pistols and each bullet has been sized .452. Never a problem.

[fredj338]

Is 12 too soft for .45 ACP?

Not at all. I have great results w/ 8-9BHN LHP @ 850fps. As noted, harder than 12BHN can actually be a elading issue if fit isn't perfect.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg