Newbie needs help with Lee Tumble Lube molds

[dyrwolf]

I bought a few of these (.357, 40 SW and 9mm) all 6 cavity, and started making boolits. I tumble lubed a bunch then started reloading. I've done enough reloading now with purchased boolits that I have the reloading procedure down pretty good.

Anyhow, all the .357 cartridges were showing a noticible bulge on the casing where the bottom of the boolit is. I finally checked the cast boolits with a micrometer, and the base of these are uniformly .364. The rest of the boolit, all the grooves above the base, are .357-.358, just the base ring is too big.

I thought maybe the mold was bad, but I got the same situation on the 9mm and the 40 SW.

I thought these were able to be used without resizing.

Am I doing something wrong, or missing something.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give me.

[R.M.]

Chances are, if you can chamber them, they'll be fine. TL bullets are usually a bit oversize, and that in most cases is a good thing.

[dyrwolf]

Chances are, if you can chamber them, they'll be fine. TL bullets are usually a bit oversize, and that in most cases is a good thing.

Most are chambering fine in my rifle. I can push them in by hand without using the lever.

I'm just concerned about the bulge.

[HeavyMetal]

I take it your store bought boolits didn't do the bulge thing?

This isn't surprising! If you look in Lee's catalog you'll see push through sizing dies avialable and now you know why!

I am not fond of the whole tumble lube system. I like a lot of Lee's ideas and products but the TL stuff just needs more to make it work "right" than they let on.

Having said all that and seeing that you posted that you can push most of them in the gun by hand I'm thinking you are on the raggady edge of chambering issues.

Without handling the loaded rounds or seeing pictures this is a guess of course!

I will suggest you get a Lee push through sizer die for each caliber you shoot and fix this.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

With the rare exception of a perfect sized boolit falling from the mold,
I size all the boolits that I load. It makes for consistantancy in the loading process.
Slug your bore and then you'll know what size the boolit should be.
Jon

[dyrwolf]

I take it your store bought boolits didn't do the bulge thing?

This isn't surprising! If you look in Lee's catalog you'll see push through sizing dies avialable and now you know why!



The store bought boolits did not have a base slightly larger in diameter than the rest of the boolit.

I guess I was tricked into buying the tumble lube by the numerous statements that they would not usually need resized.

I reality, every boolit dropped from the .357 die has a base that is .364.

I attached a picture. Hopefully it worked

[Echo]

If it chambers, shoot it. Don't worry about the bulge. Over time, working the case will make the neck brittle, leading to neck splits, but annealing after every 5 reloads will take care of that. But .364 DOES seem rather large. What alloy are you using? It is well that it is hard enough to maintain its' integrity, and isn't swaged down in seating.

[mdi]

I would vary my pouring techniques, mebbe alloy too, to see what diff. it would make. Is one mold cavity or all 6 doing this? Does your mold close properly? An infantesimal speck of lead would keep a mold open .007". Try a straight edge to see if the mold is warped...

[dyrwolf]

Thanks for the replies.

1. The molds are all brand new. The first boolits cast were too big. Most, if not all, the boolits are too big at the base, so it does not seem to be cavity specific.

2. I did notice that one boolit I just checked had a visible seam, and it checked out to .370, so the mold was not completely closed on that one. It is the only boolit I have seen with a seam. I just checked about 5 from each batch, and most are .364 at the base, a couple were in the .360-.362 range. No seams on any of these.

3. I have been using a mixture of about 90% wheel weights, 5% antimony, 5% tin. I have varied this slightly and checked the hardness. The 3 batches of boolits I have are hardness 16, 19 and 24. Some were dropped in water (the harder ones) some were not.

4. I measured the inside of the mold cavities, just the base ring, and the cavities all measure .361-.364. It seems like both the mold is a little too big, but also, perhaps, the boolit is expanding once out of the mold (which should not happen, shouldn't metal contract when cooled). Hard to measure the inside accurately, since you have to be exactly on opposite sides of the cavity, which is tough to do.

[462]

"I thought these were able to be used without resizing."

Not necessarily so. You said that you were tricked into buying a tumble lube mould. I wouldn't say tricked, rather that you fell victim to Lee's somewhat dubious advertizing claims.

"... (which should not happen, shouldn't metal contract when cooled)."

With time, boolits can get fatter, though it generally takes a couple of weeks.

JonB, in his last sentence, gave you some excellent advise.

Lastly, ignore the Lee instructions. Instead, read the Leementing sticky and follow its instructions.

[fatelk]

I have used a lot of tumble lubed boolits over the last couple decades, with some success. Some have dropped at the right size, some have not. Currently the only caliber I tumble lube is .40, and only because they cast big (.406). I tumble lube them, run them through a .401 Lee sizer, and tumble lube them again.

As I got more into casting, I started doing it the old-fashioned way, with a lube-sizer. It works a lot better for me. All the boolits are the right size, and there is no sticky lube on the outside. Yes, I use the JPW/LLA lube on the .40s, and it's really not too bad, but there is a film nonetheless.

A lot of people have good success with tumble-lubing, and it can work fine if done right, but if you're particular you might be happier with a good old lube-sizer.

Otherwise, a push-through sizer in each caliber that casts large might be in order.

[HeavyMetal]

O.K. I think I see some of the problem!

You've seated the 357 boolit deeper than it should be and have actually crimped over the boolit "shoulder" .

From the picture I'm going to take a wild guess that the mold your using is part number 90318. This is a TL358-158-2R boolit.

You maybe seating the boolit this deep because you need to to cycle the action or you maybe seating it this deep without realizing you may not have to!

So I'll make a suggestion for you to try: count down from the shoulder two lube grooves and crimp your case there! Make 3 or 4 dummy rounds and measure the case for bulge and then try to feed these through the gun as in a function test.

Make sure these are dummy rounds with no primer or powder in them!

If this cure the problem good. However with a base of .364 I think this issue will persist but in a lesser way. All case's have some taper on the inside! In this case you've seated the larger diameter boolit base futher down into the internal case taper ( read that as thicker case wall) thus creating your bulge.

I would send any and all of these molds back to the seller if they have a larger than normal base diameter.

For me this would mean no larger than .360 for 357 rounds no larger than .358 for 9mm rounds and no larger than .402 for 40 rounds.

Something else you may not have picked up is the fact that you do not need a TL mold to tumble lube. IN this case I suspect your loading for one of the 357 lever guns on the market and for that I will suggest the RF design in either 125 or 158 grain and tumble lube those.

[dyrwolf]

O.K. I think I see some of the problem!

You've seated the 357 boolit deeper than it should be and have actually crimped over the boolit "shoulder" .

From the picture I'm going to take a wild guess that the mold your using is part number 90318. This is a TL358-158-2R boolit.

You maybe seating the boolit this deep because you need to to cycle the action or you maybe seating it this deep without realizing you may not have to!

So I'll make a suggestion for you to try: count down from the shoulder two lube grooves and crimp your case there! Make 3 or 4 dummy rounds and measure the case for bulge and then try to feed these through the gun as in a function test.

Make sure these are dummy rounds with no primer or powder in them!

If this cure the problem good. However with a base of .364 I think this issue will persist but in a lesser way. All case's have some taper on the inside! In this case you've seated the larger diameter boolit base futher down into the internal case taper ( read that as thicker case wall) thus creating your bulge.

I would send any and all of these molds back to the seller if they have a larger than normal base diameter.

For me this would mean no larger than .360 for 357 rounds no larger than .358 for 9mm rounds and no larger than .402 for 40 rounds.

Something else you may not have picked up is the fact that you do not need a TL mold to tumble lube. IN this case I suspect your loading for one of the 357 lever guns on the market and for that I will suggest the RF design in either 125 or 158 grain and tumble lube those.

Thanks for the input

1. I measured the length and the loaded cartridge is 30.34mm, vs 30.39 on my reference sheet. It also fills my gauge perfectly. Going down two lube rings would make it significantly longer than the gauge. I thought having this much of the bullet in the case might be a problem, but was going by the length. I will, however, try one crimped as you suggested to see if there is a difference.

2. I am making some phone calls to Lee and Midway on these tomorrow. I think with a diameter of .364 this will never work right.

3. The mold is 158 grain tumble lube, with six cavities.

[mooman76]

You could try straight WWs. They should come out a little smaller than adding the extra tin and antimony. Also on the 6x moulds make sure you are not squeezing the sprue handle at the same time as the mould handles as it makes the mould open a hair. Lee moulds seem to have been running slightly larger lately. Allot of people complain about moulds not running big enough. Easier to size down than to size up.

[dyrwolf]

I might have solved this. I sprayed the molds with the graphite spray. Realized this when I was measuring them again. I cleaned off all this spray (the thickness of paint), and am recasting some now. We'll see how they measure out shortly. I'm hoping the thickness of this spray is my problem.

[HeavyMetal]

As with all firearms the specific weapon will tell you what it does and doesn't like. In your case the rifling may engage the boolit if you seat it out further than I saw in the picture, without having it in hand and playing with some dummy rounds all I can give you is WAG's!

However it looks like I "pegged" the mold your using next question is did I peg the type of gun?

If I did and you are using this boolit in a lever action tube fed rifle STOP!

Even if you were using store bought Round nose boolits a possibility exist that the radius of the boolit nose may be sufficent to fire the round in front of it in the magizine during recoil!

Needless to say if you have 8 rounds in the mag this could be trouble with a capitol "T"

It is slight chance that it could happen but it does and has happened! Once again I will suggest the Round Flat profile design if your loading for a lever gun!

If your going to go to the hassle of returning bad molds get a design that will work for you not against you!

AS far as OAL is concerned, well I have a dial caliper that reads both metric and US and 30.34 is a darn short 38 special round OAL! Heck my 357 case's measure 32.44 empty!

I will once again suggest either of Lee RF designs crimped in the as cast crimp groove and believe your problems will go away!

This should give you an OAL of 36.34mm or at least that's my WAG for a metric OAL to start with based I might add on a 38 special plus P 110 grain factory load

[HeavyMetal]

I don't want to burst your bubble but if you had a mold release in the cavities the boolits would cast smaller not larger by the thickness of the "Paint".

That doesn't mean the over spray didn't keep the mold halves a little open but not by .005 of an inch.

Still let us know how this helps and pay attention to the warning I posted about lever guns and RNL boolits.

[dyrwolf]

Thanks for input on lever action problem with round nose. Had never heard of that before. Will shoot one at a time.

[dyrwolf]

I don't want to burst your bubble but if you had a mold release in the cavities the boolits would cast smaller not larger by the thickness of the "Paint".

That doesn't mean the over spray didn't keep the mold halves a little open but not by .005 of an inch.

Still let us know how this helps and pay attention to the warning I posted about lever guns and RNL boolits.

If you think about it, the spray inside the cavities should cancel out the spray between the mold halves. But we'll see what happens.

[garym1a2]

My TL 45acp mold cast too large also. I size all my bullets as its better to cast large and size down than to cast undersize.

I find best results was by changinging from TL to conventinal design and pan lubing till I got my lubesizer.

[dyrwolf]

Some results.

1. After cleaning off all the graphite, it seems like 1 out of every 5 are still .364, while the rest are .360-.362. Can't get any of the bases less than .360 in diameter.

2. I tried varying the depth, and it is true that if the crimp is at the 1st or 2nd groove from the nose of the boolit, the bulge in the case is less, but it will still not fit in the size gauge. With the bullet this far out of the casing, though, the bullet is significantly too long, vs. published length of 40.39 mm. I mean, I am adding about 1mm for each ring out of the casing.

3. I test loaded a few of the .360-.362 diameter, and they would almost fit in the gauge. They would work in my lever action, but not in my cousins revolver I was testing with. Just to ohard to wedge in.

I am going to call Lee tomorrow and ask what the diameter of the bases of these molds should be. If they are larger than the specification, and that is the way they make them, then the next question is why, if it is being said these do not need sizing.

Just noticed I am quoting diameter measurements in inches and length in mm. Sorry for any confusion from this.

I'll post results.

Thanks again.

[HeavyMetal]

Sounds like you've got a handle on it!

Good work and let us know how the call to Lee goes. I'm betting they replace the mold for you!

[gray wolf]

Loose the extra Antimony, and don't use so much tin, it's just not needed for your bullets.
Get rid of the round nose bullet for that lever gun, and get a mold that will give you a flat nose bullet. It will be fine for the revolver and wont cause a chain fire in the tubular mag on the lever gun. Should also give you the correct OAL without seating the bullet so far in the case. Those bullets are seated way to deep.
Don't they look funny to you ? They look odd to Me.
By all means slug your bore --never mind the shoot as is from the mold.
size them .001--.0015 larger than your bore. The pistol may need to be treated as a separate entity and you should be measuring the cylinder throats and the bore also.
Your rifle chamber is your gauge and your cylinders are your gauge.
WW air dropped with just 1-2% tin should be all you need.
Don't add antimony to the WW
I would not say you have a handle on it, I think you have a little work to do.
Keep asking the questions as you proceed and Don't load max loads.
Get rid of the mold spray, a call to Lee is a good idea.

[Bob Krack]

How the loaded cartridge (or a dummy for testing OAL) fits the firearm is the way to measure - NOT the gauge.

Second the idea (advice) of dropping the additives to the Wheel Weights.

Bob

[dyrwolf]

I talked to Lee, and they said to send back the mold. They said the diameter should be no more than +/- .001 inch from published specifications, and that the base ring should not be any bigger in diameter than the rest of the boolit.

I'll post results. If the mold can make boolits consistantly .356-.358, it is a nice mold.