Bevel based rifle boolits

[hornetguy]

Has anybody done any research on whether bevel based bullets shoot as accurately as plain "square based" ones?
My concern is when the bullet leaves the muzzle, if the bevel base isn't "perfect" that it could affect accuracy.
I have a Lee mold for my 375 Big Bore that hasn't shot very accurately so far... I'm thinking I will chuck it up in a 4-jaw and turn out the bevel base to major diameter and see if it makes a difference.
I've also wondered about the nose-pour bullets... do they show a marked improvement in accuracy over the old "cheap" Lyman/RCBS/Lee stuff?

[44man]

I have never had any accuracy with store bought, bevel base pistol boolits. Of course, I have never had much luck with boat tail jacketed rifle bullets either. It has to do with the loss of bearing surface for the bullets weight versus the twist rate. It seems to take more work to get a boat tail to shoot then it does a flat base of the same weight.
By turning off the bevel, you still have the same bearing surface. If the boolit won't shoot, I don't think it will if you change it.
If your boolit is too small for the throat, you can get gas cutting past the bevel quicker then with a flat base but you will still have the problem if you remove the bevel. A gas cut base will never leave the crown perfect no matter what you do and will lead the bore too. That is why a gas checked boolit shoots better in most cases. The check won't gas cut and gives you the added harder bearing surface.

[piwo]

[quote=44man;138753]...I have never had much luck with boat tail jacketed rifle bullets either. It has to do with the loss of bearing surface for the bullets weight versus the twist rate. It seems to take more work to get a boat tail to shoot then it does a flat base of the same weight.
quote]

Hmm.. I've not that experience.

I've not casted for centerfire rifles, but I only shoot boat-tail jacketed bullets anymore from my rifles, and find that quality bullets properly suited to he barrel configuration are no more difficult to dial in then strait. I did have a problematic .270 that was the exception to the rule; it would shoot big round nose jacketed lead tip boat anchors way over weight for the caliber, into a nice cloverleaf at 100 yards. It tossed all the premium stuff of the recommended weight into embarrassing clusters. I concluded, as 44man did, that it must be long bearing surface for this barrel/bullet combination.

[44man]

It is not a drastic problem but say you can't get a 150 gr .308 boat tail bullet to group but the flat base will. Going to the 165 gr BT can make a world of difference. You just have to find the right bullet for your bore.
If you have a mold for a cast boolit with a bevel base, what can you do? Need to spend more money for another mold? I would cut (ream or lap.) the bevel portion out of the mold to make a flat base. If the boolits are store bought, I would not buy anymore. It is easier to change the jacketed bullets you buy then to fool with a mold or to try and change a cast boolit.
The boat tail is designed for stability at long range when it transitions to the subsonic region and is of no use what so ever at normal hunting ranges. The design started with super heavy, long bullets for 1000 yd shooting and migrated to the lighter short range hunting bullets where they are not needed at all. All it did was shorten the bearing surface.
The bevel base pistol boolit was designed for easy starting in the case without regards to accuracy or gas cutting. A boon to the guy that yanks the handle on a progressive press to make 1000 loads an hour to blast at close, big steel targets.
I see no reason at all for a bevel base or boat tail cast boolit in a rifle when the starting velocity is at or under the speed of sound although it sounds good, the boolit being subsonic. The biggest stability problem occurs way downrange when the bullet starts out supersonic and transitions to the subsonic region. The transition point causing the most turbulance. That is where the boat tail shines!
After loading hundreds of thousands of bullets for all kinds of rifles and finding the proper weight and constructed flat base bullet for the game hunted, changing to the same weight bullet in a boat tail was never as accurate. A heavier bullet would solve the accuracy but would not be right for the game. Thankfully, today we have some superior bullets that work for anything. Years ago if you went to the 180 gr .308 made for large game, they would not open on a deer at all. Lots of deer were lost because of pencil holes through the animal.
A lot of guys shoot gas checked boolits without the check and they shoot good, but some can't. It is because of the loss of bearing surface in relation to the boolit length and rate of twist. I have had boolits with the gas check so accurate that I could hit a penny at 100 yd's. Leave the check off and every shot would keyhole at 50 yd's.
It all boils down that you have to do the work with what you have, if it won't work, change something.

[MtGun44]

Hornetguy,

I think I have the Lee mold that you're talking about, trying to get it to shoot in
my .38-55 Win94. Barrel is .3805" and the Lee mold is the first one I've found
over .377. I have had a few decent groups but nothing really good. Haven't
shot the Lee bullets yet, but was thinking exactly the same - "wonder if I need
to chuck up the mold and turn out the BB and make a plain base."
Please report your experience.

Thanks.

Bill

PS is that as in FA-18 Hornet . . like a Naval aviator?

[Bass Ackward]

Well the debate about BB bullets goes on and no one ever considers .... why?

Certainly, cutting the bevel removes lead and weight from the back of the bullet. It also removes bearing length if grip to the rifling is needed. This pushes the center of balance point towards the nose which makes this bullet harder and more difficult to stabilize.

You can proove this to yourself by hollow pointing a few and compare your groups before you alter your molds.

This is usually the problem with BT jackets too. You end up having to run them right on the top to get all they got to give. And I have always believed that they direct more heat from the wave to the steel in your throat than a flat base until obturation takes place. But I can't proove that one.

[Bret4207]

Consider another issue. I've noticed almost all of my moulds are not truly round. So if the boolit isn't really round and balanced to start with, then a bevel base just exaserba..., ecsaserbate, eksazer.... makes it lots harder to get a balanced boolit leaving the muzzle. An off center bevel base would seem to me to be even more likely to wobble than a flat base.

[PPpastordon]

One of the complaints I have read is that bevel based cast bullets have a greater tendency to lead because of the increased base surface the gases can act on. This is supposed to be more of a problem, the higher the velocity goes. This has been credited to making them more inaccurate.
I have absolutely no (none, zilch) experience with bevel based, cast bullets! This is only what I had read in the past, and just never felt like purchasing the bullets or a mould to "check it out!" However, it would be great to hear from some of you more experienced bevel based shooters.
My wife has been looking for a good mould for her .38-55. I was going to use the same bullets in a Contender .375 Winchester. I have been thinking of getting the Lee mould, but did not realize it was a bevel base. This does leave me interested in the results of those .38-55 shooters - or other .375 Winchester shooters.

PPpastordon

[boommer]

from what i've experienced with lee .379 mold it's great I have a38-55 h@r target
model witch is known to be a problem child with cast boolit's . I don't really know
about bevel bases not being as good as flat base's but I've loaded both and I can tell you this much is that most of it in bore and throat diameter and alloy. so with
with this said in my small world it works for me (I THINK) !!!!!



1- SLUG BORE

2- CAST CHAMBER

3- SOFT LEAD (AS SOFT AS YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH )

4-GOOD LUBE

IT WILL GET YOU IN THE BALL PARK THEN JUST TWEAK IT FROM THERE

[MtGun44]

Please report your bore diameter with the H&R.

My 100+ yr old Win94 is huge at .3805", but apparently most modern
bores are more like .375".

Bill

[PPpastordon]

boommer;
I, also, am interested in your rifle. That is the same one my wife has. It is our plan to never spoil it with those coppery colored boolits. So, just how well does the Lee cast bullet shoot in your target H&R? Just how soft is your alloy? We will probably be using straight WW.

[Duckiller]

If boattail bullets provide better stability when going from supersonic to subsonic, then given the lower muzzle velocities of cast boolits, wouldn't bevel bases/boattails be more useful in cast projectiles than jacketed projectiles? Not trying to be a smart*** just wondering. Most of my cast rifle projectiles never approach supersonic levels, I don't think. I pull trigger,gun goes bang, I hear something hit cardboard at 50 yds. Accurate but not fast. Duckiller

[floodgate]

If I remember my history accurately, the boattail bullets were first introduced (in the US at least) sometime after WW I, when the original 150-gr. flat-base military bullets ran out of steam and accuracy in machine-gun barrage use as they went subsonic. The .30 M1, 172-gr. bullet with a 7-degree (or was it 9-degree - I have heard both quoted) boattail seemed to solve that problem, at least in machine guns, and also became popular for target shooting, even at shorter ranges; and most bullet makers jumped on the bandwagon. But in the late 1930's, the heavy bullet was giving recruits trouble with excessive recoil, not to mention the cost of the extra tooling and work required to form the boattails (also, there was speculation that the reduced base and angled sides enhanced erosion), so they want back to the flat-based 150-gr. .30 caliber M2 round which was continued through WW II and after. I think "Hatcher's Notebook" has the skinny on this, but it's out of reach and I'm working from memory (dangerous!)

floodgate

[cabezaverde]

I have an H&R 38-55 also.

I size my Lee bullets to .379" (mold drops .381" +), and it shoots well with that. The bigger problem with these rifles is the way they are chambered.

I have been thinking about scoping it and cutting the barrel to about 25 " for a woods walking rifle, but that is a seperate story.

[cabezaverde]

boommer;
I, also, am interested in your rifle. That is the same one my wife has. It is our plan to never spoil it with those coppery colored boolits. So, just how well does the Lee cast bullet shoot in your target H&R? Just how soft is your alloy? We will probably be using straight WW.


I am using straight wheelweights and Unique for a plinking load.

[leftiye]

Duck.... Add to that that the boat tails really don't work anyway - see Sierra Bullets tests on ballistic coefficients in the original sierra manual.

They concluded that ballistic coefficients of boattail bullets had to be caligulated on the same model as flat based bullets to predict slowing and drop (not on the boattail model), though they had slightly higher BCs when so done.

Furthermore they decided that in the realm of rifle bullets (as opposed to cannon projectiles) boattails didn't really give best results except in subsonic velocities. This is from memory, but I thank I've got it right.

[9.3X62AL]

On the old "boat-tail vs. flat-base" question, I can't say that one has been any better or worse for me in my rifles shooting j-words. Nosler Ballistiic Tips (with BT) have turned in SUPERB work for me in just about all rifles I've tried them in--223, 30-06, 9.3 x 62. Nosler Partitions (flat-based AND open-based) do fine work also. I agree that a boat-tail is kinda superfluous on a game bullet at the ranges we take shots at. For their good accuracy and reliable terminal performance, I've steered toward NosParts for my game-taking that a casting can't apply for. Rats get sent whatever shoots good outta the rifle being used--cast or jacketed.

Bevel-based castings haven't caused me any grief downrange--the 9mm SIGs and CZ-75 in 40 S&W love them. Again, I think the bevel is superfluous--and I agree that its presence is based on folks feeding progressive machines trying to streamline production. If both boat tails and bevel bases were to disappear, it wouldn't break my heart--but some of them work all right for me.

[Ricochet]

Floodgate, the real deal breaker for the Army on the old .30 M1 round was the long extreme range. They didn't want to have to provide such a long clear area behind their rifle ranges and went back to the shorter shooting flat based 150 grain '06 round as the M2. Besides, long range barrage fire with rifles and machine guns had gone out of fashion.

[floodgate]

Ricochet:

Yep, I'd forgotten the range factor; that was probably the real decider.

floodgate

[hornetguy]

Hornetguy,

I think I have the Lee mold that you're talking about, trying to get it to shoot in
my .38-55 Win94. Barrel is .3805" and the Lee mold is the first one I've found
over .377. I have had a few decent groups but nothing really good. Haven't
shot the Lee bullets yet, but was thinking exactly the same - "wonder if I need
to chuck up the mold and turn out the BB and make a plain base."
Please report your experience.

Thanks.

Bill

PS is that as in FA-18 Hornet . . like a Naval aviator?

No, nothing as exciting as that... I just love the 22 K-Hornet...

[hornetguy]

thanks for all the replies..
I guess that the boat-tail bullet theories might have some slight merit, but the bevel is so "short" in relationship to the bullet length, I'm thinking it won't bestow the same qualities as a properly designed boat-tail.
I was more concerned with it being non-concentric with the boolit, or out of round slightly, etc.... which caused me to question it's accuracy potential..or, more correctly, it's accuracy robbing potential.

Guess it's time for some "government work" on the lathe at work, to see what this boolit will do as a REAL plain base.

[MtGun44]

Hornetguy,

Please report on your results as I am thinking along the same
path. - removing the BB in my Lee 38-55 mold. Just wiping off
the lube ring is enough PITA to make it worthwhile, IMHO. Just
got a Lee 6-holer .358 BB, and they are the same prob with the
lube ring. What are these designers thinking?? I suppose with
push thru Lee system, it's fine. Not in my RCBS luber,tho.

As to your monicker - many relatives are/were naval aviators, just wondering
if you were one, too. Hornet cartridge makes more sense in the context
of this site!

Bill

[hornetguy]

MtGun..
I was a little concerned that since I can't get the handles off the mold, that it might have to be done with a mill, but I talked to our top tool room guy, and he says he thinks he'll be able to do it in the lathe, even with the handles attached. I'm taking it to work to find out.

I've got the Lyman gas-checked double cavity mold, but was just curious about using a non-checked boolit, and the Lee was the cheapest option..... I didn't know about the bevel base, either.
This is one of the single cavity Lee's... I think they are all doubles, now.

I'll keep you guys posted on what happens.

[boommer]

pastor don sorry it's taken me awhile to get back to you. but here's how it worked for me ! I've got .382 bore a .379 chamber sounds weird and it is, but this is how H@R CHAMBERS THEM !so unless ream out the throat this will work it was the only wayI could get it to shoot but great clusters at 100 so here we go.
I've lee 38-55 dies and from what i have found out is that it don't matter who's dies you have they are 375 winchester in sheep's clothing so there the next problem. so you can go custom but you still need to open up the throat so I don't resize ! the expander ball doesn't open up case enough but you can call lee and from what i have heard is that they will make you one I think10.00$
if you don't resize and use a universal decapping die that solves the expander ball problem and i just bell them with the expander so long as you only use those cases in that gun only.
then I prime them winchester large rifle -WLR
then 50 GRS. SWISS 1.5 BLACK POWDER LITE COMPRESSION
then 0.30 veggi card
then sized .379 lee beveled base 250 GR mold mine come out at 254-255-GRS
30-1 MIX SPG LUBE SOFT LEAD SO THEY BUMP UP!!! FOR.382 BORE IT
SEEMS THAT IT WORKS
then seat your bullet no crimp!
then what you want to do is take your take your full sizeing die and pull your
decapping pin out put in your press run your loaded round up in until you feel
basically your using full length die as a taper crimp die and whats great about
this you get good bullet run out you'll have to taper the round in to die until
the round fits chamber but it works !

smokeless should bump the bullet up lot of tinkering to get this to work
BUT RAGED HOLE OPEN SIGHTS 100 YDS !!!

[boommer]

BEVEL BASE THEY ARE JUST A LITTLE EASIER TO START SEATING IN CAST

BOAT TAILS SAME ?



it's all what works for you
it's worked for me
and it hasn't !!

[MtGun44]

Anybody successfully get the handle pins out without
destroying anything?

Hints? :confused: :confused:

Thanks.

Bill

[hornetguy]

Ok.. I already posted these in the "mold" part of the board, but I figured I should follow up here, since this is where it started...

I turned out the bevel base on my Lee mold today. I decided to use a mill at work. I indicated it in, then used a 376 reamer to take out most of the bevel, then used a boring bar to turn out the rest. It turned out pretty nice, if I do say so myself.
I've include pics of a "before" bullet, and one from today.
Now I can't wait to go poke some holes in paper to see if I've made any improvements.

[MtGun44]

Thanks for the report, looks really well done! Looking fwd
to hearing how they shoot.

Bill

[mag_01]

Removing the bevel base on the Lee 200gr. swc and perhaps overdoing it to some extent because of my crude tools gave me a solid square base after sizing and it did seem to preform better---Whether it was in my head or real it did for me improve performance---loading of course became more difficult---After beating up the mold I returned it to Lee and they sent me a new one and I left it as is (bevel base)------I wish I could still shoot that good --- but time takes its toll----Mag

[DLCTEX]

Mtgun44: The only Lee handles I have removed came off rather easily by driving the pins in slightly, then using a knife point (didn't have the proper drill bit handy) to remove the crimp. I then tapped the blocks with a plastic mallet to drift out the pins with the inertia of the blows. rather than crimp the pins back in place, I drilled and tapped for set screws in case I want to remove the handles in the future. Dale:)

[hornetguy]

Mtgun44: The only Lee handles I have removed came off rather easily by driving the pins in slightly, then using a knife point (didn't have the proper drill bit handy) to remove the crimp. I then tapped the blocks with a plastic mallet to drift out the pins with the inertia of the blows. rather than crimp the pins back in place, I drilled and tapped for set screws in case I want to remove the handles in the future. Dale:)


now, why didn't I think of that? That makes all the sense in the world, when you think about it. I hadn't given the Lee assembly technique all that much thought, after seeing the crimp at the pin.
Good info!

[MtGun44]

Dale,

Thanks for the reply! Makes sense, shoulda thought of that myself.
I'm planning on removing the bevel and it will definitely make
it easier if the handles are off. Great idea.

Bill