Here we go

[12DMAX]

From leading to accuracy issues now this :bigsmyl2: I'm having fun!

Worked up some more loads today trying to figure out my leading and accuracy problems and now the double strike's. This is a factory new RBH 45. Good news is I think i'm getting this whole pressure/BHN thing somewhat figured out, no leading and fantastic groups at 25yds with this load but now i'm getting the 2x strikes on my primers, Opinions?

Load: 255gr swcpb 12BHN
20grs 296
CCI 350
1.6003 OAL
hard crimp

[44MAG#1]

S&W use to have that problem but with the Ruger SRH that is just unbelievable. The cylinder stop in a Smith would move forward in recoil and bump the front of the notch it sets in and move down releasing the cylinder then the hammer bounce would slight dent the primer nest to the original indentation. I have had the cylinder rotate one chamber backward so when the gun was cocked again the fired chamber would then be under the hammer.
But with a Super Redhawk this is highly unusual
Have you tried that load for position sensitivity? That to me is a low load for that bullet weight and powder.
This sounds stupid but doe it do it with full 454 loads? That load you are using is not very high velocity really.
Send the gun back.

[44man]

Hammer bounce is common even with a single action. Some hammers come back to almost full cock. I have not figured out if it is force from pressure against the firing pin through the primer.
Get a Wolff over power mainspring of at least 25#, 26# is better.
It is very common to have two strikes with S&W guns or even full rotation in reverse from torque so the first load will fire, full auto for two shots. The .500 S&W can double with a full cylinder at the first shot. Once the chamber under the hammer is empty, it will not happen. Some S&W's will rotate backwards so the next shot is just a click.
Cylinder stops can and do unlock to allow cylinder movement.
Stronger mainsprings help stop bounce but cylinder stop inertia is harder to stop. Your cylinder stop spring might be too weak.

[12DMAX]

44MAG: The gun im shooting is a BH, I didnt try it for case sensitivity. What velocity would you say? I

44man: One thing I think may have been happening is I am shooting off bags trying to develop a load and i may have not been releasing the trigger after fire because of the way hands are locked in. I only had 2 cylinders loaded up, i'm thinking i probably wont see this shooting freehand, recoil will move the gun in hand but i dont know for sure until i try it.

[44MAG#1]

12dmax

I thought it was a SRH I am even more puzzled by the double strikes.
I chronoed 24 gr H110 with Win LP primers in a 45/8's inch Ruger Black Hawk and got 1092 fps
ES was 77.12 fps and SD was 27.71. This is with an RCBS 270 SAA bullet
To me the powder is position sensitive at that charge weight.. Ever notice a hollow sound with a greater than normal flash at times? Even with 24 gr one would get it.
There are better powders for 1000 fps or so. 2400 is better so is Power Pistol and several more.
I even use 24 gr H110 in a Ruger New Vaquero at times with the RCBS 270 SAA bullet too.
I like 2400 better at that velocity range. 18 to 19 gr is good.
Anyway if it floats your boat I say go for it.

[white eagle]

that charge does seem light
but I would try the heavier spring as previously noted
I have a heavier on in mine and have never had such an issue

[12DMAX]

I thought it was a SRH I am even more puzzled by the double strikes.
I chronoed 24 gr H110 with Win LP primers in a 45/8's inch Ruger Black Hawk and got 1092 fps
ES was 77.12 fps and SD was 27.71. This is with an RCBS 270 SAA bullet
To me the powder is position sensitive at that charge weight.. Ever notice a hollow sound with a greater than normal flash at times? Even with 24 gr one would get it.
There are better powders for 1000 fps or so. 2400 is better so is Power Pistol and several more.
I even use 24 gr H110 in a Ruger New Vaquero at times with the RCBS 270 SAA bullet too.
I like 2400 better at that velocity range. 18 to 19 gr is good.
Anyway if it floats your boat I say go for it.

Good info bro thanks! I do have power pistol, i will give it a try. I'm really not trying for velocity I'm finding the correct pressure/BHN combo with the powders i have. I have tried:

1. 10 grs HS-6, some leading and poor accuracy
2. 8.5 grs unique, same results as above
3. 20 grs 296, no leading and great accuracy but the primer strikes

I dont have any powder faster than unique to get the right combo at lower velocities.

Maybe I havent wrapped my head around this lead bullet thing just yet but in a nutshell the way i understand it is like this: To shoot a lead bullet with a 12BHN at standard velocities you need a fast burning powder to get your pressure up so to obturate the bullet and on the other end for high velocities you need a slower powder to obturate and get high velocities?

[bigboredad]

you may want to try
hs-6- 11-13gr
unique-9gr
296-25.7gr
most all your loads seem pretty light for each powder selection hs-6 is a great powder is gives outstanding accuracy. in my experience the swc needs to be pushed hard to get decent accuracy. The double strike on a blackhawk is a new one I have experienced it in a s and w

[MtGun44]

Try 10 gr Unique, a "known good" load which gives about 1050-1100 fps with a 429421
and usually great accuracy.

I can see how the recoil might bounce the hammer if the spring is weak.

Bill

[12DMAX]

bigboredad
you may want to try
hs-6- 11-13gr
unique-9gr

I have tried these, they lead and accuracy is bad. The 13gr load of HS-6 was the worst.


I can see how the recoil might bounce the hammer if the spring is weak.



I am going to shoot off hand tomorrow and see if i can duplicate, after running it through my mind i really think being looked into the sandbags the way i was i was not releasing the trigger and the recoil as you stated was bouncing the trigger

[tek4260]

Not releasing the trigger has nothing to do with the double strikes.

If it is a factory new Blackhawk with an alloy grip frame, it probably has the lock. The springs on the lock equipped revolvers are weaker than standard springs. That, combined with shooting from bags, could cause the double strikes as the revolver is not allowed to recoil naturally.

There are ways to do away with the lock and allow the use of a real spring.

[44man]

44MAG: The gun im shooting is a BH, I didnt try it for case sensitivity. What velocity would you say? I

44man: One thing I think may have been happening is I am shooting off bags trying to develop a load and i may have not been releasing the trigger after fire because of the way hands are locked in. I only had 2 cylinders loaded up, i'm thinking i probably wont see this shooting freehand, recoil will move the gun in hand but i dont know for sure until i try it.
It does not matter how you shoot. We have pictures of the hammer on a BFR way back before recoil even starts. It comes back far enough to pull down the cylinder stop. It has nothing at all to do with recoil.
It is very common on most guns. I still think the pressure forces the primer to punch back the firing pin, impacting the hammer.
I change all of my single actions to Wolff variable over power mainsprings.
Ruger springs always take a set and get worse with time. I changed springs every year when I shot IHMSA until I bought Wolff.
Standard springs on the Ruger are 22# to 23# but with the lock they might be less. 26# works fine and for larger calibers using LR primers, 28#.
I have often thought the flash holes in some brass is too large.
Now the S&W cylinder stop is pure inertia and they need a stronger stop spring. I have to study the S&W more but I do not have one here.

[12DMAX]

tek4260
Not releasing the trigger has nothing to do with the double strikes.

If it is a factory new Blackhawk with an alloy grip frame, it probably has the lock. The springs on the lock equipped revolvers are weaker than standard springs. That, combined with shooting from bags, could cause the double strikes as the revolver is not allowed to recoil naturally.

There are ways to do away with the lock and allow the use of a real spring.


It does not matter how you shoot. We have pictures of the hammer on a BFR way back before recoil even starts. It comes back far enough to pull down the cylinder stop. It has nothing at all to do with recoil.
It is very common on most guns. I still think the pressure forces the primer to punch back the firing pin, impacting the hammer.
I change all of my single actions to Wolff variable over power mainsprings.
Ruger springs always take a set and get worse with time. I changed springs every year when I shot IHMSA until I bought Wolff.
Standard springs on the Ruger are 22# to 23# but with the lock they might be less. 26# works fine and for larger calibers using LR primers, 28#.
I have often thought the flash holes in some brass is too large.
Now the S&W cylinder stop is pure inertia and they need a stronger stop spring. I have to study the S&W more but I do not have one here.

understand! yes It is NMBH with lock and aluminum grip I will check into the wolff springs, went through this with my 10mm wouldnt have figured it on a wheel gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

. Like 44man said you dont want to reduce the tension on the hammer spring.

[crabo]

you may want to try
hs-6- 11-13gr
unique-9gr
296-25.7gr
most all your loads seem pretty light for each powder selection hs-6 is a great powder is gives outstanding accuracy. in my experience the swc needs to be pushed hard to get decent accuracy. The double strike on a blackhawk is a new one I have experienced it in a s and w

I really like HS-6 in my .44 mag 12 grains was the magic with the 265 H&G SWC for me.

[subsonic]

Fire 12 more. Shoot 6 off-hand and 6 off a rest as close as possible to the conditions present last time. After each 6, pull the cylinder out and take a pic with the cases still in it oriented the same way as when fired so we can see at what position the double hit is happening, ie is the cylinder rotating right or left or if something else is happening.

Also, try 6 with standard large pistol primers for accuracy.

[12DMAX]

17140 RUGER SA, XP BASE PIN LATCH SPRING Pak of 1

Hey guys, taken from wolff's site, is this what i'm looking for? They dont list a LB# for it just extra power.
tom

[white eagle]

that is not what you want
if you take the panels off you will see the hammer spring
that is the one you want
I have a 28# in mine

[44man]

It is just called a hammer spring, extra power variable for Ruger single action series revolvers.
I have a S&W here for scope mounting so I checked the cylinder stop.
With the trigger back after a shot, moving the hammer back will not drop the stop because it is controlled by the trigger.
Single action hammer movement does drop the stop.
That means double strikes and doubled shots with a S&W is caused by cylinder stop inertia only. The stop needs a stronger spring.
The single action needs a stronger hammer spring.
Torque from the rifling will make a S&W cylinder turn backwards when the stop moves out of the notch from inertia. The first shot with a full, heavy cylinder in the .500 S&W can rotate all the way back and fire the round that was under the hammer from hammer bounce. The safe thing to do is to keep an empty under the hammer when you load.
The .44 will just turn enough so when you cock the gun again, there will be no live round in the chamber.
What I can't figure out is how it rotates backwards under torque and recoil because the ratchet is against the hand and should hold the cylinder. The hand must be moving out of the ratchet so it might need a stronger spring also. I have to see if other internal parts are moving so the hand is pulled out of position. Right now I only see a slight forward trigger movement releases the hand.
That opens another can of worms because any forward trigger movement far enough to move the hand also moves up the hammer block.
Something else is disengaging the hand. The cylinder might bounce it out under recoil.
I have discussed it with S&W and they say if the strain screw is tight, the gun needs a stronger hammer spring but that will not cure a floating cylinder.

[gunslinger20]

Unless Im mistaken it looks like the double tap is takeing place on the last fired round over top of the primary ignition hit, I dont think the cylinder is rotating out of battery. I agree with a heavier hammer spring. I shoot heavy boolits heavy loads of h 110 in my RBH bis never had the problem you are haveing. On a RBH releasing the trigger is what drops the fireing pin block. On recoil you dont have enough time to do that befor the hammer recoils back IF the hammer spring doesnt keep the hammer in battery after fireing.

[44man]

Unless Im mistaken it looks like the double tap is takeing place on the last fired round over top of the primary ignition hit, I dont think the cylinder is rotating out of battery. I agree with a heavier hammer spring. I shoot heavy boolits heavy loads of h 110 in my RBH bis never had the problem you are haveing. On a RBH releasing the trigger is what drops the fireing pin block. On recoil you dont have enough time to do that befor the hammer recoils back IF the hammer spring doesnt keep the hammer in battery after fireing.
It is just the way he lined up the brass for the picture with the double strike up.
It will actually be off to the side in the gun. It will also be off to the left because hammer bounce has unlocked the stop and the hand is starting to rotate the cylinder.
The double strike in a S&W is ALSO to the left even though the cylinder turns opposite in normal use. Torque is what turns the S&W backwards.
By the way, I took heat for years over calling a Freedom hammer block (sliding safety bar.) a transfer bar. I had both models here, they make a gun with a block and one with a transfer bar and I mixed them up in a post.
I won't give you heat but the Ruger uses a transfer bar! :-)

[gunslinger20]

I stand corrected (rugers terminology is transfer bar) but the fix still looks like a heavier hammer spring. your explaination of the pix makes sense also.
Thanks

[12DMAX]

OK guys take it for whats it worth, I finally got back to the woods tonight testing some more loads (pulling my frickin hair out BUT i think I may have finally discovered some issues tonight. Here goes.
First thing is those primers, I loaded up 20 rounds of 296@25grs and shot 5 off the bags and 4 of them double kissed the primer just like the pics, the next 15 were off hand and had zero double strikes on the primers and all were dead center strikes:veryconfu Second, I had zero leading on the face of my cylinders, none in the forcing cone BUT 1 1/2" into the barrel all the way to the muzzle following the rifiling. Sounds like maybe a barrel restriction and possibly to hard of a bullet?

[Groo]

Groo here
Does the double hit happen with heavy loads only???
If so the bounce could be increased by hitting the bench...
Sounds like fire lapping time...

[12DMAX]

Groo: yes, only heavy loads. I suspect you might be right on the firelapping but I dug through my bullets the past 2 nights and there are some BIG discrepancies in sizes ranging fro .450 to .452. I am going to put it in reverse and sort all 500 of them and load up only the .452's that snug up nice in my throats. Dont know why in petes sake I didnt measure these from the get go :killingpc we'll see i will not let this thread peter out till i have an answer.

Tom

[44man]

OK guys take it for whats it worth, I finally got back to the woods tonight testing some more loads (pulling my frickin hair out BUT i think I may have finally discovered some issues tonight. Here goes.
First thing is those primers, I loaded up 20 rounds of 296@25grs and shot 5 off the bags and 4 of them double kissed the primer just like the pics, the next 15 were off hand and had zero double strikes on the primers and all were dead center strikes:veryconfu Second, I had zero leading on the face of my cylinders, none in the forcing cone BUT 1 1/2" into the barrel all the way to the muzzle following the rifiling. Sounds like maybe a barrel restriction and possibly to hard of a bullet?
Now stop and think, in fact all of you too. Off hand makes the gun rise faster and the gun catches up to the hammer. That reduces bounce distance. Darn tootin, it is that easy!
Replace the hammer spring! They are real cheap.

[12DMAX]

44man: I am going to replace the spring, I wanted to share that find I had just for the very reason you posted removing all doubt, Thanks amigo!

[curiousgeorge]

I think I noticed something in the OP's earlier comments. If I read correctly, he said that he only had 2 cylinders loaded up. I would suggest that you have at least 4 cylinders loaded, even if 2 of them are nothing but empty cases.

With my first Ruger SBH I was testing loads with onlyl 3 cartridges. Note that the loading gate is unsupported and it will move forward with recoil. Mine broke the detent that holds the loading gate opened / closed and locked up the cylinder. I couldn't even take the cylinder out of the gun. I had to send back to Ruger for repair (with 2 loaded rounds still in the cylinder !!!!).

In talking with their service department, they told me that this was not the first one that they had seen and it was their advice to have at least 4 cylinders filled to support the loading gate during recoil.

Steve

[canyon-ghost]

Now that is some good info, too! That's one of those little facts that definitely make a difference, and needs to be written down somewhere. Thanks for telling us about that.

Ron

[subsonic]

Ross Seyfried, Hamilton Bowen, and John Linebaugh have all written not to shoot Ruger SAs with less than a full cylinder unless the cylinder is recessed for the case heads. This is obviously more of a problem as recoil increases.

[12DMAX]

44man: One thing I think may have been happening is I am shooting off bags trying to develop a load and i may have not been releasing the trigger after fire because of the way hands are locked in. I only had 2 cylinders loaded up, i'm thinking i probably wont see this shooting freehand, recoil will move the gun in hand but i dont know for sure until i try it.

curiousgeorge: this probably is what your refering too, what i meant was I only had 12 rounds (2 cylinders) with me and wasnt able too shoot any off hand.

Tom

[44man]

I think I noticed something in the OP's earlier comments. If I read correctly, he said that he only had 2 cylinders loaded up. I would suggest that you have at least 4 cylinders loaded, even if 2 of them are nothing but empty cases.

With my first Ruger SBH I was testing loads with onlyl 3 cartridges. Note that the loading gate is unsupported and it will move forward with recoil. Mine broke the detent that holds the loading gate opened / closed and locked up the cylinder. I couldn't even take the cylinder out of the gun. I had to send back to Ruger for repair (with 2 loaded rounds still in the cylinder !!!!).

In talking with their service department, they told me that this was not the first one that they had seen and it was their advice to have at least 4 cylinders filled to support the loading gate during recoil.

Steve
This can be a problem but I have shot my SBH thousands of times with just one round in the cylinder so it will depend on the gun.
To be safe from a gun breaking, keep a round under the gate.