Wore out my J-frame

[shooting on a shoestring]

I got this little Mod 60 .38 in the late 70's. It was a high mileage specimen then. Pretty loose but shootable. I carried it and shot it, alot. Mostly fed it 358156 with 3.3 to 4.0 gr Bullseye, with some 358089 or 358091 over Bullseye, 700X or occasionaly Unique. And then quite a few 158 JHPs over 5.5 to 6.0 gr. Unique. Now the pivot holes in my trigger have worn oblong and let the DA bar slip dropping the hammer before the cylinder locks in DA. In SA it works fine. The barrel/cylinder gap is about 0.012". Lots of end shake and side shake to boot.

Is there any place to get a replacement trigger for my J-frame? I'm not so concerned about the gap and cylinder shake. But the worn out trigger has put it out of action.

[lastmanout]

Brownell's (the big gunsmith supply) lists hundreds of Smith and Wesson parts. I have ordered things from them. They are a little expensive, but have always given great service, That's my first choice.

[omgb]

For less than $150 youcan get it factory rebuilt and as good as new complete with a trigger job. Give them a call and you'll be pleased

[Bass Ackward]

Is there any place to get a replacement trigger for my J-frame? I'm not so concerned about the gap and cylinder shake. But the worn out trigger has put it out of action.

SOaS,

http://www.e-gunparts.com/itemnumber.asp

[45nut]

For less than $150 youcan get it factory rebuilt and as good as new complete with a trigger job. Give them a call and you'll be pleased

Gotta agree, I see no reason not to let the people that built it so well the first time have at it again. :cbpour:

[35remington]

Yep, I agree, send it back.

You might want to avoid shooting that 6.0 Unique load out of that J frame. That's pretty stiff. Even my Speer #8 doesn't go that high with Unique out of a snubby, and that manual should have been called "The REAL +P loads found here!"

They stopped at 5.5 grains Unique w/158 jacketed. And noted that this load and others would loosen up a snubby with extended shooting.

Boy, would they. Data like that was why a lot of small frame .38's were listed as non +P only. The new ones are listed as Plus P suitable, but you'll also notice Plus P isn't what it used to be in the manuals either.

[Treeman]

That 6.0 grains of Unique load IS in some old literature but decades ago guys like Ken Waters were saying it was excessive. 5.4 gr. of Unique has been a published Maxin many handbooks for a long while. Some sources show it as a max standard pressure load for 158s and others show it as +P. I note that current Alliant data Is WAY under that.....I also note that current Alliant loads for 38 spl are about 20% under pressure tested loads of RedDot, Unique, Bullseye etc from 15 years ago. I find myself wondering:
Did they changed the powders after taking over Hercules?
Did they use a goofball pressure barrel?
Are they so afraid of lawsuits that they are fudging their data downward?

Whatever the case it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I have a lot of old Hercules Powder left and most of a can of Alliant BlueDot but when I use up my existing stuff I am going to try other brands. Manufacturers please don't mess with powders/ loads that have been consistent for decades!

[felix]

Treeman, the books might have been right or wrong years ago. Even today they might not be all that which is desired. You just hafta' go by your gut feel, and that is sad for beginners. In the books' defense, they always state to load rounds with the lightest shown loads first. Hopefully, most folks do that. If so, some of us who value our ears, hands, shoulders will hold off on the max loads in the majority of load listings. The smaller bore cartridges are probably loaded much higher than the minimum loads, and sometimes much greater than that. Let the shooter of these rounds be aware of the strength of their gun before proceeding. ... felix

[Murphy]

SOAS,

I'd go with sending it back to S&W for the rebuild. I've read where several have done this and were extremely happy they did.

Invest in the gun again and it'll probably be with you for many more 1,000's of rounds.

I look at it this way. Chasing down the trigger, getting it fitted properly (unless you have the skills to do it yourself) will cost you probably half of having S&W just rebuild it. You'll come out way ahead sending back.

JMHO,

Murphy

[Treeman]

Felix, I realize that variations in test results are normal-even with identical components. I shoot very few "maximum" loads much preferring mild loadings that are easy on my ears/hands/shoulder and on the firearm. What gets me is that test results on Hercules powders in the .38 spl were quite consistent a couple of decades ago. Consult 3 sources and you would find maximun charges listed within a few tenths of a grain(a percent or 2) and pressure readings within a few hundred CUP. Suddenly I picked up an Alliant manual and found start loads in previous data at or above maximum in Alliant data. That is screwey. As to the actual pressures of Hercules powders from 15 years ago.... I don't know but I can determine relative pressures via case expansion measurements and find max listed loads don't exceed factory load pressures-therefore Alliant's current data is off or they changed the powders. It makes me unhappy. Actually I suspect that they panicked when CUP pressures and PSI determined by Piezoelectric transducer didn't match and instead of calmly accepting the corresponding actual PSI for whatever CUP was okay previously, they slashed loadings to get low PSI readings. 20% changes in data deserve an explanation.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Lastmanout...I'll check out Brownells and see what they have. BassA....I'll follow your link and see that too.

For the rest, I think I'll have to give S&W a call and talk it over with them. My first thought is to just get the little gun shootable and pretty much retire it. I've gone to using a SP101 in .357 for carry and the necessary practice. I had just supposed getting a factory rebuild back to specs would cost pretty much the same as a new gun. Maybe thats an option. I have really enjoyed the little .38 and its moved a mountain of wheel weights, with surprising accuracy (at 7 to 15 yards). I once tried it bench rest at 100 yards but I was afraid I'd strain the barrel if I did that often.

BTW... This is what I like about forums. I get the benefit of some collective wisdom, a few thoughts and views different from mine, for the cost of only a handful of electrons.

[Don 3]

I just sent my mod. 60 back for the same thing,$65.00 latter and its all better. Took about 6 weeks.
Don

[35remington]

Treeman, Speer did list 6.0 grains Unique w/158 jacketed in the #8, but in a K frame revolver. They did not publish the same load for a 2" J frame. 6 grains Unique with a 158 in a lightweight two inch oughta get your attention recoilwise, too, especially with the skimpy standard stocks.

Of course, you're right in noting they went from essentially no pressure standard to a good conservative one (and sensible with .357's available) while at the same time distinguishing between Plus P and standard loads. Their old data in the K frame would rate Plus P Plus. All of the two inch J frame loads they published would easily be Plus P by today's standards-and therefore not recommended for use in revolvers of that size and vintage by S&W (most likely).

That's as close as I can come in explaining the difference in data.

[lastmanout]

Errrrr- I may have given bad advice. I think sending it back to Smith and Wesson for rebuild is a very wise choice. It is less than the cost of a new Sixgun and you wil have a nearly-new pistol to enjoy all over again. I would also cut back to recommended powder charges. 6.0 Unique is a HOT and probably over pressure load. And not really that much faster. If you want more power than the 38 special, it is better to get a Larger caliber.:castmine:

[Treeman]

35Remington, Continueing the hi-jack of Shoestring's thread(Shoestring I hope you get that J frame tightened up cheaply by the way) I know that the 6.o grain Unique load got published in various places. When pressure testing equipment began to be more widely employed handbook loadings dropped.....and they showed a lot of agreement between independant tests. Speer #s 10 and 11, Lyman 47, Hodgdon26 and Nosler #3 do not have identical charges and pressures for Hercules powders in the 38spl but they are all close.The differences are conmensurate with differing bullets of the same weights, differing seating depths and possible different lots of powder.... The Alliant manual differs by 20%. TWENTY PERCENT!!!When starting loads from 4 sources become an +P load or over something is so out of kilter that it should be explained by the powder company.

[Bret4207]

When I started loading 30-35 years ago there was little availble information where I lived. We got what info we had from guys like Skeeter and Elmer and the occaisional Lyman manual that found it's way into the mountains. Loads I used to use regularly are considered +P+ these days. Whether it was the 32 WCF, 38, 7x57 or 45 we used what info we could find with what components were available. I've still never even SEEN a Remington primer, much less any Vitavouri (sp) or Norma powder. Some of the older info was pretty hot and there wasn't much differentiation between a N frame and a J frame. Ackleys books and some of Sharpes loads were real hot. I once quoted a load from Shapres book here and it was so far from the norm of today I thought I'd copied from another cartridge reference. Made apologies and everything. A year later I'm looking through an old Lyman book and there's the same load. I go back and check Sharpe. I copied it down right in the first place, but it's way, way overloaded by todays standards.

My point is things have changed alot through the years. Now we're going to PSI from CUP and I can't make heads or tails of half of the pressures these days. As someone else said, sometimes you have to go by your gut and use your head. Thats darn good advice. Shooting my "overloads" back in the day never resulted in any stretched frames, blown cylinders or anything more than the occaisional very flat primer. My gut said, "Back off a little" and we all lived. Nowadys we have scads of up to date info available at the press of a button. I say lets be glad for what we've got. We're in the "Golden Age" of handloading and we don't even know it!

[shooting on a shoestring]

I know that 6.0 gr of Unique under 158 JHPs is a hot .38 load. I used it as a carry load and fired roughly 50 per year over about 15 or so years. About 5000 a year were Bullseye loads with SWCs. In the last couple of years before going to the SP101, I carried the Mod 60 with 358091s hollow pointed .125" to a depth of .300" cast in 50/50 wheel weight/reclaimed range lead over 4.0 grains 700X for close to 900 fps. That 6.0 gr Unique/158 JHP load ran 813 fps.

P.O. Ackely listed 6.4 gr Unique for 158 (did not mention what bullet, probably SWCs). But my 1972 Sierra book also lists 6.4 gr Unique for 158 JHPs as max. I always thought I was a little conservative stopping at 6.0.

I called S&W. I'll be shipping it back in a week or two when I get a break from my job.

[9.3X62AL]

J-frames/I-frames amaze me these days. They both started out as platforms for the 32 S&W Long........got adapted to the 38 S&W..........then the 38 Special. NOW, they are chambered in 357 Magnum! Metallurgy has come a LONG WAY, indeed!

I think your factory rebuild is the best bang for your buck--no pun intended.

[lovedogs]

Two comments here. All I've known that had a S&W rebuilt have been extremely happy with them. In one case a friend began looking for old pistols that he could buy cheap and send in for rebuild. He was very happy with what they did.

Second... powder manufacturers don't change their powders! Some time ago I noticed that I had a very old can of 2400 and wondered if it could be used with current data. I called Alliant. They explained that the new is the same as the old. If they changed it and people began blowing things up they'd be in for countless lawsuits. I then loaded some rounds using the old and the new to compare them. They averaged within 7 FPS of each other, shot the same place and I couldn't tell one from the other in any way. Old, stored powder can deteriorate if stored improperly. But stored properly it is pretty much unaffected by time. Keep in mind, however, there can be slight differenced from lot to lot.

[omgb]

My goto load for my Model 19 was 12.5 grains of 2400 and a 150 grain SWC from an RCBS mould. After many thousands of rounds, my gun was loose. I sent it into S&W for a tune up. Well, I needed a new crane and they found a crack in the forcing cone. The cure was to set the barrel back a tad. They told me that pinned barrels were no longer available so cutting mine back was the best option. It was also discovered that I had two slightly over-sized chambers in the cylinder. Since recessed cylinders are not available and since I really didn't want to give that feature up and since S&W told me the gun would be safe if I did nothing, That's what I chose to do.

The crane they had needed to be nickeled. The whole process took 5 weeks (the smith went on vacation) and ran me under $250 including an accuracy and trigger job.

The gun is like new. Tight, accurate and slick as a whistle. While they were at it, S&W told me that my load was a tad warm for every day shooting and that if I backed off to 38 SP loads for practice and used only a couple of hundred +P or mag loads a year my gun would last indefinitely. So, these days, I follow their advice.

[Willbird]

I will disagree with some posters..............if you LIKE that gun, I would find a GOOD pistolsmith in your area and have him go completely thru it and make it BETTER than S&W ever will..........might cost you a couple hundred to do a full tilt blueprint and single and da trigger job..............but once you have one done you'll never think of it as money wasted.

commonly they will set the barrel back one thread and put a nice new forcing cone in, fix the endshake, true the end of the cylinder, set the gap, and go through all the moving parts and blueprint them to better than a smith and wesson has been fit by the factory in 50 years or more.


Bill

[44man]

Yes, send it to S&W! Then use the proper lubes in the gun and it will never wear out. I shot the devil out of Smiths with hot loads without any wear at all.

[KCSO]

Last month I got my 4043 back from Smith. I had the drawbar break on the range after about 5000 rounds of factory loads. The gun was returned slicker than ever with a new sear, hammer and drawbar and new grips. I am super happy with the work.

[Treeman]

Lovedogs. I certainly wouldn't expect powder performance to change more than the slight lot to lot variation that is inevitable. While we know that changing lots means that loads should be reduced slightly and worked back up(or down) many people don't and lot to lot variance OUGHT not to be great enough to create a castastrophe.... Alliant really messed with my mind when 38 special data changed over 20%. Now I don't trust the manufacturer.

[nicky4968]

FWIW, the older manuals used to specify that the heavier charges were for "large frame" pistols. That is, not for the J or the K frames, but for Heavy Duties and New Services.
I had manuals 25 years ago that listed the 4.3 grain of Unique load, 158 gr LSWC or LRN, as max for the K and J frames. I adopted that load and never deviated from it. I have put tens of thousands of rounds of that load through many K frames (I only owned two J frames) and wouldn't have wanted to stand at the 50 yard line and try to catch any of them.
PS: Thanks for letting me lurk on your nice forum.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Nicky. I never thought I would see J-frame 357 Magnums, but they are here now. That doesn't seem "right", somehow--but I've been called obsolescent in my thinking in more than a few ways. Doesn't matter much anyway--I can't shoot a J-frame worth a darn with my big paws.

[Dale53]

I can shoot a "J" frame just fine but I am here to tell you that a .357 magnum in an airweight frame does not appeal to me AT ALL. I really don't believe I am a wuss, but that is too much for me (I don't deliberately hit my thumb with a hammer, either and I don't think that makes me a wuss:mrgreen:

I have, and shoot, an Airweight .38 "J" frame Smith but I only shoot standard .38's in it. I use factory 125 H.P.'s for carry and I practice with 158 gr RF cast bullets at standard velocity. That is plenty enough pain for me.[smilie=1:

My other carry gun is a .45 ACP Kimber CDP Ultra II. It is undergoing "Trials" (and doing very well) to make sure it is totally reliable before I start carrying it seriously.
I am a believer in putting 500 rounds through my carry gun before depending on it.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

I hear ya, Dale. By the time I get an aftermarket grip on a J-frame that allows good shooting, the "compact concept" is pretty much defeated. Not so with a Colt DetSpec, though--those I can work real well. LOVE 'EM!

Metallurgy advances are what they are. I just consider that the I/J-frame was originally built around the 32 S&W Long in 1899, and it gives me a pause. That's all.

[David R]

I have a K38 that I cannot keep from leading. I tried opening up the throats, firelapping, and polishing the forcing cone. I have shot 5,000 rounds through it including about 600 J bullets. Still nuttin but lead. I called S & W today. They said they didn't have a new barrel but for $60.00 they would set it back, check alignment and evereything else. They also are going to send me a prepaid shipping label. I have a J frame that has a goofy crane and it is going back with the K38.

I will let you know how it works out.

David

[shooting on a shoestring]

Thanks to all, my mind is made up to send my loose cannon back to S&W for better or worse. S&W says send it to them via UPS overnight. I'm thinking I should put it in a plastic carrying case such as I use for airline travel. It just seems wrong to ship it floating around in a box of peanuts. How have you guys packed a revolver for shipping? I've packed for years, just not in a box.

[David R]

I am a mechanic. I wrap em in clean red grease rags, then stuff the box full of
"dunnage" (paper).

David

[Nueces]

Shoestring,

My technique, for handguns, cameras, tools, is to wrap tightly in something 'forgiving', like David's red rags, or a scrap towel, and to enclose this tightly in a small box or roll of cardboard. This box is then put into a larger carton, with 'dunnage' packed around it. I like to pack tightly again, to make the item stay in the middle of the carton, surrounded by the dunnage. The purpose of the small box is to give the item some stiff corners to take possible dings, in case of really rough handling.

Mark

[mtngunr]

I've shot a couple of J-frames loose.....and by using the old data, where authors would recommend 11gr/2400 under 158's and comment that 12gr/2400 can be used but might hot things up a bit......the old data manual stuff was generally developed without actual pressure tests, being instead inferred from the little data available from the powder maker, and then compared to fired loads via primer/brass behavior.....mostly guesswork.....widely available relatively inexpensive pressure test equipment measuring psi is only a recent thing, and is the reason many loads and velocities have dropped........as for powders changing, they do indeed change, and Unique and 2400 are among them....the cleaner burning stuff is suggested to start 10% below original powder loads, as the new stuff is faster......as for whose data I trust for pressure, I vote powder manufacturer every time.....reloading manuals from bullet makers have always been the least reliable data, the mentioned early Speer manuals a good example.....and we don't call them "+P" books, we call them "The Blow-up Book" in my circle....they rated 11gr/2400 shooting a 146grJHP as a 16,000psi load in Speer #6, and 6gr/Unique with the same bullet as 15,000psi..........current Alliant data lists a 158grLSWC over 4.5gr/(old)Unique as 17,100psi and 7.8gr/(old)2400 as 17,400psi.......I am not mad at the powder maker......I am greatful.........I've known folk who bulged bolt notches in K38's using the Unique data of 6-6.5grs......and the platform started as an I-frame for the .32, also used as a .38S&W (short and weak), and then was beefed up into the J-frame for the "powerful .38 S&W Special", as it was back then........leave it to reloaders to then try to shoot .38/44 N-frame reloads in the little gun......a tribute to S&W design if there ever was one......I sparingly shoot 158grSWC's for an honest 900fps+ from my 640 1 7/8ths"bbl using 5.5gr/Herco and 9.5gr/2400, these loads running an estimated 22,000-24,000psi ballpark, WELL above SAAMI +P recommendations, and I am NOT recommending them for anyone else in either a J-frame or K-frame (the K-frame actually thinner at the bolt cuts than the J-frame is at chamber rear)........the famous Keith load (now back down to 12.5grs/2400 by virtue of faster 2400) has been tested and runs near 28,000psi, as I recall.....considering what SAAMI .357 is established at (35,000psi in a roomier case) , pushing the envelope is not encouraged in .38 Special......