SMLE Sporter (by mistake)

[motorcycle_dan]

So I have been wanting a SMLE No1 Mk III for some 6 month now. Something special about it. So Ugly it is cute, like a basset puppy. So cruising the auction sites I found one in my price range with 4 minutes left. I scrambled to remember my password and placed my bid. Just in time, whew, Then I read the whole ad that said "sporterized." It wasn't the first time I've done something stoopid on impulse (wife #2 comes to mind, but I digress)

When I picked it up I was impresses as it is in quite nice condition for a "sporter" that is. Stock cut down just forward of the band. Bore looked nice and even had some jeweling on the bolt.

I bought some Wolf 174 gr 303 brit ammo and take it to the range. Bullets were entering the target sideways at 100yd. Close inspection showed a slight muff near the muzzle so I had it recrowned. Cleaned the bore very well with an electronic "Foul Out" system. This did remove a bit of copper fouling. I figured now it will be a tack driver, NOPE.

At the range last night and it is still dropping bullets sideways keyholeing. Now I think it is a bullet diameter issue. With my caliper I get bullet diameter of .310 from the wolf ammo. The bore diameter of the rifle is .308 Groove diameter I have yet to measure so remains unknown.

The rifling appears strong but does not have sharp corners between lands and grooves. Not knowing the history it may have been enlarged with an abrasive bore paste.

I'm thinking I need a larger diameter (.314 or ?) and a heavier bullet.

Anyone else had this issue crop up with a 303 brit? Thoughts? I'm thinking of a Lee C312-185 mold. I've never cast for rifle bullets only pistol. This is new territory for me. Does anyone make a .314 200gr bullet mold?

Option B is always sell it to the next person and let it be their problem (probably smart) but I'd at least like to know why it is not stabilizing the bullet? Anyone willing to loan me a dozen or so projectiles to try? TIA I'm in central Ohio if you are willing to help out...(or would like to purchase a beautiful piece of history.....)

[blaser.306]

OK so what's the crack about the Basset puppy ?

[Dutch4122]

NOE makes a .316" version of the Lyman 314299 that also has a fatter nose dimension of .305"

I believe there is a current group buy running for that design.

This NOE 316299 would be the place I would start first with a rifle like yours.

Hope this helps,

[Multigunner]

A minor bore diameter over .307 was grounds to condemn a barrel. You have a worn out barrel.
You might find a load that will shoot okay, but for any serious purpose the barrel is toast.

[gew98]

Try some .312 diameter jacketed bullets... I still have some speer and sierra .312's I bought years ago so I know they're out there. .310" dia bullets just seems too small for 303 bores , almost like the russian factory is using the same equipment they use to make 7,62 bullets for their AK's and PKM's.

[Bloodman14]

PM sent.

[docone31]

My Smelly likes .312. I can use either .311, or .312 jacketeds. However,
I have to size to .314 when I paper patch.
A good rifle to patch to.

[303Guy]

I have a L.E. I. that has a bore like you describe yours. I wouldn't dreem of putting factory j-words down it. It likes a big fat paper patched boolit that seats into un unsized neck and it is accurate!

The patched nose is .314 and the patched base is .3177 and it's a 208 grainer. Plain lead should work just as well but as you say, the rifling is not sharp. The bore tapers down to a minimun at about one third from the muzzle. The throat itself hardly exists - it's more or less a straight taper from bore entry down. Perfect for patched.

P.S. Should you decide to rebarrel, please keep me in mind. I am looking for such a barrel for my pig gun. (The current one has rust damage in the chamber).

[motorcycle_dan]

It likes a big fat paper patched boolit that seats into un unsized neck and it is accurate!

Throwing myself into the uninformed neophyte class.... How do I learn more about the paper patch technique.

It's not like this is my only shoot'n stick, I just want to believe I can make it shoot accurate. Right now the projectiles are not stabilized as they exit. The "J-word" was because I didn't know any better. Actually the only .303 brass I could find was loaded ammo.

[motorcycle_dan]

The bore diameter of the rifle is .308 Groove diameter I have yet to measure so remains unknown.

Okay knocked a swaged 32 SWL wadcutter bullet through the bore. 5 rifle grooves are difficult to measure but setting my caliper to .3140" I can turn the bullet and it just touches the caliper edge.

Can someone direct me to a site that explains paper patching technique? Sounds interesting and like something I should learn.
Thanks

[oneokie]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=62

[docone31]

Go to Smokeless Paper Patching on this forum.
Lots to see.

[longbow]

I have three Lee Enfields ~ two No. 5's and one No. 4. All have "fat" bores and like at least 0.314" boolits.

I tried Federal Factory ammo with "J" bullets to check accuracy as surplus military ammo and reloads using Lyman 314299 (cast at 0.312") gave very poor accuracy.

Even the Federal ammo gave very poor results.

I decided I would pull and knurl some of the Federal bullets to bring diameter up a few thou. That did it!

I found that knurled to 0.314" accuracy was good.

So, I lapped out the Lyman mould to 0.315". Now I got good boolit accuracy too. I then purchase an NOE 316299 mould and sized to 0.315". All is well with the world now.

So far I have not managed to get very good accuracy with PP boolits... better than standard sized "J" bullets but not as good as fat cast.

So, the short story is I suggest a "fat" cast boolit with gas check before making any rash decisions. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Paper patching is also a viable option for a fat barrel, so as suggested above, give that a go too.

Also, good info here on the controversial issue of using fillers (I use fillers often by the way):

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

Longbow

[303Guy]

Be warned - paper patching can be addictive!;-)

It's a heluva lot of fun. I'm using the most readily available lead source, that beng scrap lead drain pipe. I select pieces with some soldered joints on it for the tin. And that's it. No heat treatment and no hardening elements added.

[motorcycle_dan]

From a forum member bought some 210gr sized to 0.315 Hope to run a few down the bore tomorrow. Without meaning to start a fuss about which powder is better, What are ya'll using to push lead projectiles down worn out Brit barrels. I have a bunch of Green Dot so used that for my initial testing. My book called for a starting load of 9.5 and max at 13.0gr. I loaded mine to 12.0

Do you crimp the neck on cast lead bullets? I have a Lee Factory crimp die but wasn't sure it should be used with cast bullets used in a bolt action.

I remember a post about using 2400 powder in a 303 brit. Now can't find it. Is that the go to load for Brit 303?

Last question. Just purchased an M1A. Where is a good place to get once fired 308 Win brass for this fine machine?

[skeet1]

Your Green Dot load will work fine. If it looks like you could use another grain for powder try it. You may find out that the old Brit is a lot less worn out than you think. I do Crimp mine and using the Lee FCD should work great.

Ken

[Bloodman14]

Dan, I crimp mine in the groove just below the forward driving band; since I LLA mine, size/check, and pan lube the 'groove' on the GC shank becomes another loob groove. I am liking H4350 in my LE; lots of power and doesn't kick all that much.

[Multigunner]

Besides bores oversized from the manufacturer, other factors can result in grossly oversized Enfield bores.

The SMLE MkI barrels were intended for the MkVI bullet rather than the MkVII bullet. In an attempt to get the same velocity from the shorter SMLE barrel as from the long LE barrel the last 14 inches of the SMLE MkI bore was reverse taper lapped to reduce friction on the bullet.
This worked as far as velocity went, but adversely affected accuracy if the lapping job was not done perfectly.
A non lapped conventional replacement barrel for the SMLE MkI was authorized by 1917, but apparently few were rebarreled.

Members of other boards have reported finding barrels with the same reverse taper on WW2 BSA rifles. BSA had used parts from astrategic reserves to assemble these rifles, so its possible some discontinued SMLE MkI barrels could have ended up in the mix.

Bores of the reverse taper lapped barrel can measure as loose as .321 at the muzzle, and much tighter in the leade.

Take off barrels from SMLE MkI upgrades may also have ended up being used by civilian gunsmiths to rebarrel later marks of SMLE rifles, or sportered LE or MLM rifles in need of servicable barrels.

The SMLE MkI barrels should not have the SC and HV markings denoting throat and sight modifications for the MkVII ammunition.

Also since lead lapping was still a common method for restoring the usefullness of lightly pitted bores, many of the old war horses may have been lapped by gunsmiths after leaving government service.
Lapping of the bore was the final step in the boring and rifling process during manufacture when the Enfields were first in service.
Whether they continued to lapp bores during wartime manufacture I wouldn't know.
It was easy to over do the lapping process. This was and is a delicate process requiring some skill and patience.

Another factor seldom encountered was the ball burnishing process used to even out the minor diameter while smoothing out the surface of the lands.
Parker Hale offered ball burnished barrels with muzzles marked as such, but the process had been used by builders of civilian target rifles earlier on, so some barrels may not bear a mark.
A hardened steel ball was forced down the bore by a hydraulic ram. The minor diameter would be increased by only about .001 if done properly.

[303Guy]

Mk VII ammunition can also open up a bore but at least it gives the bore a taper in the right direction. It also opens up the throat.

[bydand]

Just a suggestion, try some FLAT based bullets and see what happens. The Wolf bullets are boat tailed. Your rifle has been fired with cordite propellant for years, there will be some throat erosion and boat tails are prone to tipping in the bore. You could also try a few rounds of Mk7 milsurp which will have a flat base before you do anything else. It might solve the problem

[motorcycle_dan]

A followup, The SMLE sporter has not gotten any better. Bullets sized to .315 still rattle down the barrel like a golf ball down a gutter spout. They enter the target side ways, backwards and a couple even went point first. I have two options, paper patch or new barrel. (three if you count sell'n it to a rat bastid brother in-law)

I finally ponied up for the real Smelly I wanted. A very clean Lithgow 1943 build had been eyeball'n me since early summer. Well Wednesday was the first day of our pistol league and it followed me home. On the range Thursday it was printing good groups with the .315 cast bullets as well as the J-bullets. The cast bullets with 12.5 gr of green dot work very well, dream to shoot and accurate at 150yd (max on my range) Picking off clay pigeon on the berm >50% of the time. I think I could safely go up to 13gr but if 12.5 is accurate, I'm quite happy there.

[Multigunner]

Keep an eye out for a good barrel, these sometimes show up. Theres the Indian manufacture barreled action bodies that show up now and then and I've seen good barrels on cut apart action bodies offered now and then.

A pre bubba'ed Lee Enfield can be looked at as an opportunity, to create a fine sporter without butchering a fine milsurp rifle.