Im confused. Educate me

[rtracy2001]

So I understand the bit about the 8x57J and the 8x57JS Mauser rounds what with the J being a .318 bore and the JS being a .323 bore.

But where does this 7.92x57 come from??? Many refer to it as an 8mm round, others aren't so sure. It really gets confusing when you start doing the math.

(25.4mm/in)/8mm = .3175" (round to .318) (so the Germans used groove diameter, OK that's fine)

.323" x 25.4mm/in = 8.204mm (they changed the designation to 8x57JS but could have changed it to 8.2x57 I suppose, if they wanted to stick with groove diameter. I guess they had an established designation and decided to keep it simple :-? )

(25.4mm/in)/7.92mm = .3118 (rounds to .312) (Did we start talking bore diameter instead of groove diameter and not bother to tell anyone? I'll have to dig out my bore slugs but I think the bore diameter on all my 8mm-JS rifles is greater than .312")

Then we have the NATO snafu

.30" x 25.4mm/in = 7.62 (except 30 caliber isn't .300, its .308)
.308" x 25.4 mm/in = 7.823mm

OK, so I get this, look at the bore diameter, not the groove diameter, nothing wrong with that. But then they go and blow it with the 22 caliber rounds:

the 22 caliber designations range from 5.56 to 5.7?

.219" = 5.56mm
.220" = 5.588mm
.223" = 5.66mm
.224" = 5.69mm
Pretty sure that the base diameter is closer to .220" than .219" (I could be wrong, all I have is comercial rifles in .223)

OK, they are NATO after all, we can't expect them to make sense all the time.

But what happened to the Russians????

7.62 = .311-.314????

Even the base diameter is larger than .300, so they are not pulling the same trick that NATO did with 30 caliber. Did they have a different metric system?

What is going on?

[oscarflytyer]

Lands (high portions of bbl/bore) vs grooves of bore.

.308 --> .300 lands & .308 grooves

8 MM --> 7.92mm lands and 8mm grooves.

7.62x54R --> Depends. Lands are typically .300, grooves anywhere b/n .308-.311, or so. Issue here, as is usual with some/most Milsurps - the tolerances tend to be a bit oversize - makes it easier to guarantee that dern near anything will chamber/shoot/work in the rifle, espec when dirt/fouled. It ain't a bench rest rifle!

AND the Russians never were real big on tight manufacturing tolerances. If you have any doubt on this, read up on the battle of Stalingrad specifically, and the T-34 tank in general.

[Larry Gibson]

The Versaille (SP?) treaty at the end of WWI made it verboten to have 8mm cartridges or rifles made for them. Thus the 7.9. You will also find many civilian rifles, drillings, etc. marked as 7.7, 7.8 and 7.9 for the same reason regardless of whether they were .318 or .323. If they weren't marked as 8mm they were legal according to the treaty or at least they were "allowed' that way.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

The Russian 7.62 was originally called the "three Line" rifle. The Russian measurement system of the day was far different from any system used these days.
A "line" equaled aprox .1", three lines was .30" or very close to that, this would be the minor diameter of the bore.
The rear sight graduations were in "arshins" which equaled the average pace of a marching soldier at around 28 inches.

As for the other designations both the US and England designated calibers by the minor diameter or bore size not counting groove depth, the .303 is designated by the minor diameter of the bore rather than bullet size or major diameter and the U S .30 is also designated by minor bore diameter rather than bullet size or major diameter.

Wartime production pressures resulted in less precise manufacture, so acceptance standards for the Russian and British barrels became rather loose.
Difficulty in removing metal fouling and hardened carbon fouling in the field also meant a slightly oversized bore while not quite so accurate could remain reasonably accurate for many more rnds fired before a major cleaning with harsh chemicals. Troops were urged to not attempt to clear away metal fouling, but to turn the rifle over to a non com for proper cleaning.
Lapping of bores was still occasionally practiced to restore accuracy to a lightly pitted bore, but was time consuming and required skill, it also increased bore size, so if new barrels were available the rifle would be rebarreled.
Abrasive polishing pastes and wire gauze screens on a pull through also wore down lands increasing minor diameter, this resulted in gauging to insure bores remained within the rather loose tolerances.

PS
When cartridges using the same diameter bullets and bore sizes have varying designations its usually to avoid confusion between these rounds.
Also some straight case cartridges were designated by the diameter O D of the case or I D of the chamber rather than by bullet or bore size. The .38 Special is an example, with the big brother being designated by bullet dia as the .357 Magnum.

[303Guy]

The name '38' came from a heeled bulleted cartridge with a 38 bullet. The 36 was then married to the 38 case.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Multigunner. I seem to remember reading somewhere awhile back that the "arshins" measurement on the Moisin sight was the distance in Czar steps?Robert

[frnkeore]

The 8X57 came about in the 1888 Commision rifle, well before WW1. The bore diameter was 7.9mm or .311, not 8mm. The bullets for that Commision rifle were .318 not the groove diameter. The groove diameter was .3208 or 8.15. This is the cartridge refered to as the J. So, there never was a true 8mm bore to outlaw. The modern (if you can call it that) 8X57S that came in 1898, again before WW1 is 7.92X8.2, still not a 8mm.

Frank

[gew98]

The 8X57 came about in the 1888 Commision rifle, well before WW1. The bore diameter was 7.9mm or .311, not 8mm. The bullets for that Commision rifle were .318 not the groove diameter. The groove diameter was .3208 or 8.15. This is the cartridge refered to as the J. So, there never was a true 8mm bore to outlaw. The modern (if you can call it that) 8X57S that came in 1898, again before WW1 is 7.92X8.2, still not a 8mm.

Frank

Frank ; The germans realized within a year or two of the adoption of the 7,9 rimless that their bores were tight enough coupled wiht the cupronickel alloy of the bullets caused severe fouling and even burst barrels form same. So the increased groove depth to nominally .321" to avoid this and increase bore life . At the time of the adoption of the 7,9 service cartridge the british publications of the day referred to it as the " .311 mauser ". The "J" reference is actually the german letter for for the capitol 'I' inferring infantry... so the 7,9x57J refers to this being the infantry cartridge which in overall german parlance meant 'military cartridge' .But the german military designation was 88 patrone. The german commercial arms industry kept on producing the 7,9mm chambering in the .311x.320 bore dimensions from the get go all the into the early 1930's.
Upon the adoption of the Gew98 in 1898 the rifle still used the 88 patrone J loading with round nosed bullet of 215 grains. In 1903 the S patrone was adopted... a lighter flatter shooting bullet of slightly larger diameter. Hence bores were therin made to a .323" groove depth for the bullet . Hence the 7,92x57JS or as the german military referred to it S patrone , the S in both commercial and military parlance referring to the bullet - Spitzer ( pointed ).
I never heard any european reference banning anything of 8mm bore diameter. The french have for soem decades banned possession of any weapons with a formerly used by them MILITARY chambering. Hence you will find loads of gew98 , 98k and kar98a rifles rechambered for the commercial 8x60 to make them legal. The germans thankfully never went that far , though for many years bayonet lugs , stacking hooks and sights adjustable for over I recall something like 200 meters were illgegal post WW2.

[Ed in North Texas]

The Versaille (SP?) treaty at the end of WWI made it verboten to have 8mm cartridges or rifles made for them. Thus the 7.9. You will also find many civilian rifles, drillings, etc. marked as 7.7, 7.8 and 7.9 for the same reason regardless of whether they were .318 or .323. If they weren't marked as 8mm they were legal according to the treaty or at least they were "allowed' that way.

Larry Gibson

The ground force military requirements of the Treaty of Versailles involved the personnel strength of the Reichswehr (100,000). There was no prohibition on the "8mm", nor any other caliber individual weapon. Civilian gunsmiths generally continued to build the 8mm with the smaller J bore and not the JS, but the fact that the period pictures show paramilitary forces with both 98 Mausers and Maxim machine guns on the street pretty well gives us a clue as to any "banning" of the 8mm for civilian use. In 1920 the Wiemar Republic issued a law requiring "legal" government weapons to be altered with identification. Mostly these were Lugers which were "Double Dated" with a new strike of "1920" along with the original date on the weapon. Some rifles have turned up "Double Dated" (e.g. 1916 and 1920 both on the receiver over the chamber), although they do not show up with the regularity of the Lugers. I don't know if only the pistols were supposed to be dated (to prevent theft/identify stolen and battlefield pick-up weapons in private hands, according to one German source) and some eager personnel got carried away. It is known that some canvas goods were stamped with "1920", and there was absolutely no requirement for that.

[Larry Gibson]

Numerous source, especially those dealing with civilian rifles made during that time period give that reason for the mismarked 7.7s, 7.8s and 7.9s most of which are either .318 or .323. Perhaps the "sources are incorrect but if you research it you will find it like I did. I researched for a drilling marked 7.7 made during that time period. I've also read numerous times of Hitlers gyrations to get around the Versaille treaty with his increasing weapons and ammuntion production. I could be wrong but there is an aweful lot of mismarked 8mms made during that time.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

The name '38' came from a heeled bulleted cartridge with a 38 bullet. The 36 was then married to the 38 case.
S&W .38 bullets didn't use a heel base.
S&W was way ahead of colt in the cartridge revolver business. The .32 S&W was the same deal, the cartridge designation based on the chamber/case size rather than bullet size.
The .22 RF uses a heel base bullet with case the same diameter as the bullet as well.

Remington .44 caliber C&B revolvers converted to cartridge use were at first chambered for a .46 remington cartridge, the designation being chamber size once again.

[303Guy]

S&W .38 bullets didn't use a heel base.True. It was the naming protocol that followed through from the heeled cartridge where the case diameter gave it it's name. The 380 auto came about even later I think? There never was any real logic in the naming of calibers.:wink:

[frnkeore]

"Frank ; The germans realized within a year or two of the adoption of the 7,9 rimless that their bores were tight enough coupled wiht the cupronickel alloy of the bullets caused severe fouling and even burst barrels form same. So the increased groove depth to nominally .321" to avoid this and increase bore life ."

Yes, thats true, the blowups happened very early and were also the product of the outside barrel shape being to small in diameter in the chamber area and I believe that most if not all barrels were replaced for that reason before 1890.

It was one of the great milatary failures of it's time caused by the rush to compete with the French 8mm magazine rifle. Possibility akin to the rush to put the AR 15 in service, untested in a jungle invirement.

Frank

[gew98]

Frank ; the AR15/M16 debacle has little to do with having been tested... it was tested to death as the old school ordnance types were all M14 lovers and did eevrything they could to sabotage tests in favor of their archaic pet love. The problem was simply when adopted the weapon had features like anodized chambers and chromed BCG's deleted to lessen the cost , and ammunition makers lobbied and got away with using a substitute surplus powder on hand for the 5,56 ammunition which exascerbated any malfuntions in vietnam by huge factors. The "Ichord committee report" conducted after all these problems arose points out all of this and named names...but big government closed ranks and not a soul was tar & feathered over the glaring deficiencies THEY caused. Plus the fact that the rifle was touted as low maintenance and some fools bought into that sales pitch.
As for gew88 barrel replacement I have an 1891 Spandau - matching german used not south american that is not S patrone marked anywhere and retains it's original as made barrel. It will chamber and shoot S patrone bullets without a hitch or signs of over pressure. I have a couple 1889 & 1890 gew88's that are all S patrone marked and though they retain their factory original barrels the german modified the chambers to allow chambering of the S patrone's slightly larger diameter bullet.
If I recall barrels were as well often stamped with a "z" to show that they had been 'broached" to the 'new' nominal .321" and some of my 88's do exibit the 'Z' mark on the barrel chamber under the barrel jacket of course .

[gew98]

The ground force military requirements of the Treaty of Versailles involved the personnel strength of the Reichswehr (100,000). There was no prohibition on the "8mm", nor any other caliber individual weapon. Civilian gunsmiths generally continued to build the 8mm with the smaller J bore and not the JS, but the fact that the period pictures show paramilitary forces with both 98 Mausers and Maxim machine guns on the street pretty well gives us a clue as to any "banning" of the 8mm for civilian use. In 1920 the Wiemar Republic issued a law requiring "legal" government weapons to be altered with identification. Mostly these were Lugers which were "Double Dated" with a new strike of "1920" along with the original date on the weapon. Some rifles have turned up "Double Dated" (e.g. 1916 and 1920 both on the receiver over the chamber), although they do not show up with the regularity of the Lugers. I don't know if only the pistols were supposed to be dated (to prevent theft/identify stolen and battlefield pick-up weapons in private hands, according to one German source) and some eager personnel got carried away. It is known that some canvas goods were stamped with "1920", and there was absolutely no requirement for that.


Ed ; you will find more gew98 and kar98a rifles marked 1920 on the sttock and chamber than you will P08 pistols so marked. As you note this was to signify a legal gov't owned rifle and when one found not 1920 marked it was confiscated as it was thus considered 'illegal'. I have even owned a couple kar88's that were land gendarmarie marked that had the 1920 popped on the stock and receiver.
In the early days of germany's post war collapse huge amounts of issue arms circulated in germany from returning troops marching home with their weapons to about any political group raiding depots like the communists did. The 1920 gov't mark lasted in force for about 2 years , which was about the time for the gov't to get ahold of the situation(s) for the most part.

[Ed in North Texas]

Numerous source, especially those dealing with civilian rifles made during that time period give that reason for the mismarked 7.7s, 7.8s and 7.9s most of which are either .318 or .323. Perhaps the "sources are incorrect but if you research it you will find it like I did. I researched for a drilling marked 7.7 made during that time period. I've also read numerous times of Hitlers gyrations to get around the Versaille treaty with his increasing weapons and ammuntion production. I could be wrong but there is an aweful lot of mismarked 8mms made during that time.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I can't address sources other than original (i.e. the translated pertinent sections and articles of the Treaty of Versailles) as that is where my research started and ended.

Here is an English language translation of the military pertinent parts of the Treaty from Brigham Young University:

http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/versa/versa4.html

And another, though not a university source:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/versailles159-213.htm

Note that the only mention of "caliber" is in association with "guns" (i.e. artillery). Small arms are limited in number (Chapter II, Articles 164 and 165).

The BYU document includes links to the appropriate Tables referenced in the Articles. Caliber is also only noted in reference to artillery.

At the time the treaty was negotiated and written, civilian arms were not considered "armaments" or military "small arms". The idea of including civilian weapons in such definitions is a relatively recent idea of the United Nations.

Germany implemented the 1919 treaty starting in 1920 and announced their refusal to abide by the treaty in 1932. If the sources you read had been correct, then only those rifles made/assembled in those 12 years would be effected by the treaty. Germany did evade the restrictions with various subterfuges such as tank training in the Soviet Union (sort of ironic), Sailplane "civilian club" training of pilots, firearms development in (IIRC) Switzerland, etc.

And finally, if these caliber markings were the result of the Treaty of Versailles, then Gew. 98 rifles dated prior to 1918 would be marked "8". They are not, they are marked 7.9. See the barrel marking immediately in front of the receiver ring Here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=228819750

[frnkeore]

GEW98,
So what your saying is that the AR15 was never jungle tested in the final accepted state, just as the GEW 88 was never fully tested in it's as issued state?

Also, the S stamp had nothing to do with the barrel bore or groove size. Only that the "S" cartridge would chamber in the 88 chamber. Some chambers had the neck cut and if the gauge would enter they were only stamped "S" w/o reaming the neck. So, that had to have been done after the .323 154 gr "S" cartridge appeared, long after the replacement of the defective barrels.

Frank

[Chicken Thief]

Post 1918 non military rifles for civilians was in effect and thus came the 8x60 caliber. A simple rechambering and the nifty thing is that a 8x57 will fire in a pinch;)
Clever ******** them there Germans.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed ; you will find more gew98 and kar98a rifles marked 1920 on the sttock and chamber than you will P08 pistols so marked. As you note this was to signify a legal gov't owned rifle and when one found not 1920 marked it was confiscated as it was thus considered 'illegal'. I have even owned a couple kar88's that were land gendarmarie marked that had the 1920 popped on the stock and receiver.
In the early days of germany's post war collapse huge amounts of issue arms circulated in germany from returning troops marching home with their weapons to about any political group raiding depots like the communists did. The 1920 gov't mark lasted in force for about 2 years , which was about the time for the gov't to get ahold of the situation(s) for the most part.

Nice to know that. I only have a 1916/1920 P08 and most of what I see offered with "double dates" are the P08s. Guess I've just missed the 98s. The "Freicorps" ("civilian" paramils of former troops allied with the Army, I forget the moniker used by the opposing Reds) were actually supplied with small arms by the Army (probably from confiscated stocks).

[Ed in North Texas]

Post 1918 non military rifles for civilians was in effect and thus came the 8x60 caliber. A simple rechambering and the nifty thing is that a 8x57 will fire in a pinch;)
Clever ******** them there Germans.

Are you claiming this is a German law, or what? I know I've seen '98 sporters (in the original 7.92x57mm) offered on GunBroker which were stated to have been made by German gunsmiths circa 1922. These seem to have been pretty nice (by today's standards) "conversions" of Gew. 98s to sporter configuration (stock, sights, finish).

Also Mauser, at Oberndorf, made the Armee Model C from about 1903 to 1930 (I think not made during the war years 1914 to 1918). This was a commercial version of the 98 (totally different stock) with commercial proof marks, also in caliber 7.92x57mm for the civilian market.

[gew98]

GEW98,
So what your saying is that the AR15 was never jungle tested in the final accepted state, just as the GEW 88 was never fully tested in it's as issued state?

Also, the S stamp had nothing to do with the barrel bore or groove size. Only that the "S" cartridge would chamber in the 88 chamber. Some chambers had the neck cut and if the gauge would enter they were only stamped "S" w/o reaming the neck. So, that had to have been done after the .323 154 gr "S" cartridge appeared, long after the replacement of the defective barrels.

Frank


The AR's were tested throughly , and sabotaged almost as such by the old school ordnance types.The "jungle environment" was not the biggest contributor to the M16's early failures... it was the dumbed down product supplied. The first batches of AR15's bougth and supplied to the vietnamese and the green berets in the kennedy administration had the chromed BCG's & chambers and the properly loaded ammunition worked flawlessly then in vietnam.
The gew88's were very rushed and the germans did not do enough testing on the bullet jacket alloy in relation to the initial bore diameters they went with as prolonged use quickly showed an engineer type or two dropped the ball on that score.
I'ts pretty rare to come across a gew88 that is german used and matching , non import that was not sold previous to WW1 as surplus that is not marked to be compliant with S patrone according to german ordnance regs. The germans were quite particular about such details. As well the germans when they initially supplied turkey with rifles pulled about 99% of the gew88's with the mauser charger & magazine modification to turkey along with gew98's to simplify the supply of ammunition they shipped to turkey as well. It is very tough to come across a straight german 88 w/mauser charger mod that HAS NOT been to turkey.
Let's not even count the 88/14 - super rare type of mauser charger mod ( almost all kept in germany and turned in to be destroyed by the allied commission at wars end).