Parkerizing schedule advice

[BoolitSchuuter]

Long story short - I had 11 M14 mags water damaged. I had them bead blasted, but the guy that did'em didn't put any preservative on them. It was two weeks before I could pick them up and the rust came back. I wire wheeled and preserved the mags till I get my parkerizing kit. Based on the reading i've done, this is the schedule I worked out:

1. Rinse/ soak in degreaser.
2. Dip in boiling water for (enter time duration here) minutes.
3. Dip in parkerizing solution (15 minutes seems to be the norm).
4. Boiling water dip to fix parkerizing
5. De-water/ preservative oil dip.

I've never done this before, all advise welcome.
One question I have. Will the phosphoric acid clean out any residual rust in the pits during the park process? Or do I need to add an acid dip in my schedule to insure absolutely clean metal?

:coffeecom

[Molly]

Ummmm. Check the literature that came with your kit. Parkerizing is a zinc phosphate that can be a bear to get a good even film with. But if all else fails, a good job can be done from visual evaluations. Boil for about ten minutes at a rolling boil before the zinc phosphate soln, and yes, it should remove light rust, but it shouldn't have to: The metal should be decently finished before treating. Play safe and use a commercial chelant rust remover. Something based on EDTA should do fine.

[BoolitSchuuter]

Chelant? EDTA? never came across this in any of the stuff I've read. Clue me in please? :( :?:
BTW, I'm using the Manganese kit.

[David2011]

1. Rinse/ soak in degreaser.
2. Dip in boiling water for (enter time duration here) minutes.
3. Dip in parkerizing solution (15 minutes seems to be the norm).
4. Boiling water dip to fix parkerizing
5. De-water/ preservative oil dip.

I've never done this before, all advise welcome.
One question I have. Will the phosphoric acid clean out any residual rust in the pits during the park process? Or do I need to add an acid dip in my schedule to insure absolutely clean metal?

:coffeecom

BoolitSchuter,

I hope you're using a commercial solution with instructions.

Most of Molly's comments align with my experiences with Parkerizing. The metal should be free of rust, clean and well prepped before Park'ing. It's not really a film coating but a metal chemically bonding with the base steel. Above all, follow the written instructions. Use a stainless or porcelain coated container. If porcelain, it must be free of chips. A carbon steel container will consume some of the manganese in the process of Parkerizing the container which is a waste of material.

1. The metal should be degreased at about 150 degrees in a rust inhibiting degreaser like Brownell's.
2. A good rinse in hot water to remove the alkaline degreaser. It doesn't need to be a full rolling boil but should be very hot.
3. Parkerize at 150 degrees until the fizzing stops. Additional time after the fizzing stops additional time does not accomplish anything. It may be very fast or it may take 10-15 minutes depending on the conditions of the solution.
4. Hot rinse to wash off the Parkerizing solution. Boiling is OK but it's just a rinse. It's not like rust bluing where the boiling fixes the rust.
5. The metal will dry very quickly if the rinse is good and hot. Ref: Step 4- If your water is hard you will get white mineral deposits so it's not a bad idea to use reverse osmosis drinking water for the rinse. I get it at Walgreen's and it specifies reverse osmosis on the label. The metal should be dipped in water displacing oil- not "preservative oil." This is a very thin oil available from Brownell's or Du-Lite.

The Parkerizing solution can be stored in an air-tight plastic bottle once it's cooled and will remain good as long as it doesn't evaporate.

Parkerizing is a great finish on its own because it holds gun oil so well. It's also a great prep for the spray and bake or DuraCoat finishes. I Park'ed the slide on my carry gun and haven't had any rusting problems since.

David

[David2011]

One other note for people thinking about Parkerizing complete guns: Barrels should be well plugged with tapered rubber or wooden plugs to protect the bore. Parkerizing will leave finished surfaces rough and really trash a bore.

David

[Molly]

Chelant? EDTA? never came across this in any of the stuff I've read. Clue me in please? :( :?: BTW, I'm using the Manganese kit.

Wel, that's what you get for hanging around with undesirable types like chemists. Chelation is capture of positively-charged metal ions by a large molecule. On a molecular scale, it's something like putting the bear in a cage so it can't do any more harm. The most widely used chelating molecule is EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetraacetic Acid). EDTA has the capacity to chelate almost every positive ion in the periodic table.

Read the label on the container of your rust remover. If it indicates that it contains "EDTA" or "chelant" or "chelate", you should be in good shape. I suggest you don't even THINK about acid based rust removers like Naval Jelly. Yes, they'll remove rust OK, but they leave a surface that's just aching and slavering for another chance to rust some more.

[BoolitSchuuter]

Ooooooooooooooooh Molly, you made my head hurt :shock:
I did a google search and came up with a product called "Evaporust" that apparently is a "chelant". So, if I do an evaporust dip & soak followed by a hot water rinse. This should give me the ideal surface prep needed to parkerize, right?
Everything i've read points to good clean surfaces being necessary for a first rate park job.

[Molly]

Ooooooooooooooooh Molly, you made my head hurt :shock:
I did a google search and came up with a product called "Evaporust" that apparently is a "chelant". So, if I do an evaporust dip & soak followed by a hot water rinse. This should give me the ideal surface prep needed to parkerize, right?
Everything i've read points to good clean surfaces being necessary for a first rate park job.

I'm not familiar with Evaporust, most any non-acidic rust remover should do the job for you. (Note that there are acids and there are ACIDS. EDTA is technically an acid, but it's VERY mild.) And yes, a good clean surface is as necessasry to parkerizing as it is to blueing.

I have the darndest time making some new guys understand that blueing a part won't cover up anything. If you have a poorly polished white metal barrel before you blue it, what you will get is a poorly polished black metal barrel. It's been a long time since I did any parkerizing (I think I still have some solution though), but the same principle holds true there too.

[David2011]

Evaporust is great stuff. A friend introduced me to it after Hurricane Ike flooded the workshop area under his elevated house about 4 feet deep. He soaked drill bits and all kinds of small steel items in it and salvaged them all.

I don't know what it is but it's non-toxic and it works as advertised. I have a set of Lil Dandy rotors that were left with walnut dust on them for an extended time in a high humidity area. Of course, they rusted wherever the walnut dust settled. I soaked them in Evaporust for a couple of days and the rust went away. I've used it on all sorts of small parts that had surface rust. It doesn't seem to do much other than make the rust go away unlike Naval Jelly which turns the rusted areas black. It has little odor and doesn't irritate my hands. AutoZone carries it in quarts and gallons. A quart is about $8.00.

David

[BoolitSchuuter]

Thanks for the input Dave. I have an Autozone close by. I'll pick some up tomorrow and give it a try.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I believe the best way to do it is go from the blast cabinet to the park solution only blowing the part off with dry air before going into the solution. If you are not able to blast or have it done somewhere else you have to put oil of some type on and then boil/clean before parking! A pain but I don't see any cheap way around it. Brownells has HOLD and other things you could use but pricey to me. If you are going to do thismore than once you could build a blast box or even use play sand and just let it go in the yard when you do it. Here's a FAL Austrian STG-58 I built and parked using Brownell's manganese solution. If you clic the pic and bring it up full size you will notice that the rear sight is almost black and the main body is a grey-green. This was just how the colors came out,I did nothing different to the metal. Some metals react differently than others.

[OlManDow]

M14 magazines are notorious for coming out of parkerizing with a mottled appearance - if that's what you get, it's not necessarily your fault.

No pre-boil is needed, just cleaning. Leave them in the parkerizing until the bubbles stop coming off, then three to five minutes longer. The durable coating is zinc or manganese phosphate hydrate. The hydrate isn't fully formed when the bubbling stops.

[DCM]

IMO I would do the pre-boil.
The VERY KEY ingredient to a good parkerizing or blueing job is having an ULTRA CLEAN surface to have the chemicals interact with! the pre-boil helps to insure this.
If there are ANY unwanted chemicals on the metal the blue or park will not take properly, I learned that the hard way.

I would transfer that metal directly from the pre-boil to the park solution to avoid rusting in between.

I would also recommend using distilled water for all of your process, as both city and well water MAY contain undesirable chemicals.

Hope this helps.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Brownells solution is very easy and forgiving to use. I have used it alot on steel parts that were on grinding fixtures that ran 24/7 in water based coolants.

Here's the deal. The part needs to be cleaned and simple brake cleaner works just fine.

The parkerizing solution needs to be above 160-170F, then put the parts in and let them fizz. The actual mixing proportions are not very critical, the amount of time the parts are in the solution is not really critical unless you just leave them in way too long. (15 minutes is good enough)

You don't have to use the whole bottle just use the amount of solution you need for the size container you have that your parts will fit into. You'll have to use divison to figure out the amount needed for the amount of water. The ratios are very forgiving and not that critical.

Two things govern the color. Temp of the solution and hardness of the steel. The harder the material the less the Parkerizing will take, also if your solution is not to temp hardly anything happens. Boiling the solution is too hot! I have actually put parts in the solution and heated it up while on break, and came back to finished parts.

What you should get on M14 Magazines is is a nice charcoal gray color. YOU ABOSLUTELY MUST APPLY THE OIL after you are done. the stopping agent they sell with the kit is nothing more than LPS 2 oil. I used it in 55 gallon drums and there is only one oil product that smells like LPS 1,2,or3 only difference is the viscosity.

The parkerizing only provides a porous surface that absorbs the oil thus making a corrosion resistant surface. Not putting the oil on it will result in rust as soon as any moisture gets drawn into the metal.

It is simple and very effective. for ultimate corrosion resistance heat up Sta-Lube Boat Trailer Grease, and coat the metal parts with that. Obviously wipe away excess in a day or so.

I had mild steel parts and fixtures that ran in the water based grinding coolant for years with no rust!

Randy

[greywuuf]

I would not complain about the various parts being various colors, I had a devil of a time getting the lowers to be even semi even. The fals have some spot welded hardened area's on them and as stated they don't take park as well. Resulting in some interesting stripes. Also you can get a really interesting pink sheen effect if there is ANY copper in your solution. Ask me how I know. Also Stainless wont take park but it will eventually rot away ( I had a stainless park tank I did not drain that pin holed on the bottom)

Dan

[Molly]

Sticky??

[Storydude]

Want to save money?

go to home depot and buy a gallon of Jasco Prep-N-Etch.

Mix 20Oz jasco to 10Gal water.

Heat to 180*

Take a zinc wheelweight(we all have at least one...), blast the coating off and drop in till it dissolves.

Sandblast, boil, drop in solution for 15-25 min or until fizzing stops, pull out, hose with WD 40 and smile.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/734/dscn2032.jpg

[DCM]

Want to save money?

go to home depot and buy a gallon of Jasco Prep-N-Etch.

Mix 20Oz jasco to 10Gal water.

Heat to 180*

Take a zinc wheelweight(we all have at least one...), blast the coating off and drop in till it dissolves.

Sandblast, boil, drop in solution for 15-25 min or until fizzing stops, pull out, hose with WD 40 and smile.]

Nice work! I will have to try the prep and etch method! It would definitely save some $ both on chemicals and hazmat shipping charges!

STICKY YES! especially with storydudes' addition!