No4 Enfield being retired - Canuck Rangers

[gew98]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...nfield-rifles/


Quote:
Canadian Rangers to retire Lee-Enfield rifles

Since their formation in 1947, the Canadian Rangers, Canada's Arctic defense/surveillance militia, have been carrying .303 chambered Lee Enfield rifles. Today, more than 60 years later, each Ranger is still issued with a Lee Enfield No. 4 rifle and each year are provided with 200 rounds of .303 ammunition. Because parts are becoming scare, the Canadian Forces have decided to replace the Rangers' Enfield inventory by 2014 with a rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm. Canada.com reports


Quote:
Earlier models had been in service with the British army since 1895, according to the Juno Beach Centre, which commemorates the effort made by all Canadians during the Second World War. On its website, the centre noted that during the First World War, Canadian troops threw away their government-issued Ross rifles in favour of Lee-Enfields they picked up on the battlefield.

Thompson said after consulting with the Rangers, it was agreed that the new rifle would be in the 7.62mm/ .308 Winchester calibre, as this was best suited to meet the Rangers' requirements. He noted that ".308 Winchester refers to a specific cartridge that is very similar to the 7.62 x 51 (NATO) cartridge, and is made by several companies."

They were originally issued to the Rangers, along with 200 rounds of ammunition, to ward off incursions into Canadian territory. Today the Rangers are not expected to engage invading armies, but they still carry a rifle for personal protection and survival in the harsh Arctic territory they patrol.

All good things must come to an end .

[303Guy]

Parts are scarce? Like no-one can make something? Yeah right! It's a choice they're making that's all. The real question is, how do we get hold of some of these rifles?:roll:

[JeffinNZ]

And I wil bet a penny to a pound that some tree hugging, whale patting, decaf latte supping, hemp suit wearing, non fossil fuel burning, anti child spanking, Roman sandal owning, greenie hippy will have the No4s chopped up and scrapped.

Sorry, did I say all that out loud?

[dnepr]

And I wil bet a penny to a pound that some tree hugging, whale patting, decaf latte supping, hemp suit wearing, non fossil fuel burning, anti child spanking, Roman sandal owning, greenie hippy will have the No4s chopped up and scrapped.

Sorry, did I say all that out loud?

sound like you have a good grasp on the Canadian political scene [smilie=l:[smilie=b:

[longbow]

Jeff:

They are birkenstock sandals, not Roman sandals but otherwise you are right on!

I just got a nice No. 4 and would like another, and another...

I doubt these will be available though.

Longbow

[curator]

My guess is the ammo is getting scarce, not spare parts. Nonetheless, these guns are unlikely to end up on the surplus market. Too bad too as some of them are the modified No4 version that command premium prices. But then Canada doesn't need the money, right? They will probably melt them down or dump into the Arctic sea off Baffin Island.

[zuke]

Ammo is available from IVI.
They make all the Canadian military ammo.
They do it all from stamping out the brass disk for the cartridge to the primer's to the bullet.

[Bloodman14]

Man, there oughta be a law against scrapping/destroying/'dumping' milsurps.

[3006guns]

My guess is the ammo is getting scarce, not spare parts. Nonetheless, these guns are unlikely to end up on the surplus market. Too bad too as some of them are the modified No4 version that command premium prices. But then Canada doesn't need the money, right? They will probably melt them down or dump into the Arctic sea off Baffin Island.

I've got a dandy GPS..........can you get the coordinates?:wink:

[Shooter]

Man, there oughta be a law against scrapping/destroying/'dumping' milsurps.

That is a UN mandate for mil-surp weapons. To keep them out of the hands of "Terrorists".

Those in control of the media decide if your group are "Terrorist", or "Freedom Fighters".

[BruceB]

During my decades of living i northern Canada, I knew quite a few Rangers. Virtually all of them were Inuit (Eskimos) because the lives of that people are largely concerned with salt water, and a major part of the Ranger mission is to watch for Russian activities in the Arctic (read: submarines, to a large extent).

If there are or were any Indian-blood Rangers, I'm not aware of such.

For some years, if not all, the Rangers were issued a #4 Rifle EVERY YEAR, and the rifles were written-off and not returned due to the extreme salt-water environment.

IVI made runs of .303 MkVIII Ball ammo well into the '80s and maybe later....I managed to get a few thousand rounds of the stuff from "acquaintances". My Bren LMG loved that ammo!

[Ed in North Texas]

Would they sell them to us if we paid in Canadian Tire Dollars?

[303Guy]

The No4 rifle is actually such a nice action. I have three. It can be made to cock on opening too if one wants. I want to restore one of mine to full battle dress.

[LuvMy1911]

And I wil bet a penny to a pound that some tree hugging, whale patting, decaf latte supping, hemp suit wearing, non fossil fuel burning, anti child spanking, Roman sandal owning, greenie hippy will have the No4s chopped up and scrapped.

Sorry, did I say all that out loud?

Jeff, took the words right outta my mouth... Even said better too.

[Multigunner]

The No4 rifle is actually such a nice action. I have three. It can be made to cock on opening too if one wants. I want to restore one of mine to full battle dress.

I'd heard of a cock on opening modification for the Lee Enfields long ago, not to be confused with the cock on opening kits sold for the M1917 actions.

I suppose its a doable mod but the reduced rotation of the Lee Enfield bolt compared to a Mauser bolt's 90 degrees might make for a short firing pin fall or a stiff opening.
The Remington 788 and similar tree lug actions have even less rotation on opening, around 90 degrees.
I forget the exact number of degrees for the Lee Enfield, 78 degrees comes to mind, perhaps less.

Not much reason for such a conversion.

I would think that recutting the firing pin retraction cam surface in the bolt body, then fitting a cocking piece with a longer retractor stud would be the way to go. Then a very strong firing pin spring would be needed to accelerate the pin fall in its shortened travel.

Some owners of M1917 actioned rifleswhich have had the conversion (speedlock?) reported problems with a too light strike and unreliable ignition.

Some Model 30 Remington rifles were made as cock on opening actions, so if spring weight is balanced for the shorter stroke it should work.

Not sure but I seem to remember that some .22 trainers built on the No.4 action were converted to cock on opening.
The lesser striker blow needed for the .22 RF cartridge would make this a more feasible conversion.

[303Guy]

Actually, the caming action of the Lee Enfield is more than one might expect. There is the camming of the bolt itself plus the camming of the firing pin. To convert, all that is required is a shortening and raising of the trigger sear. The firing pin spring might need to be stiffened too. I know that a Lee Enfield can be fire by simply snapping the bolt closed from an unlocked and firing pin down position. (Ask me how I know!)

OK, now here's a question - which is the sear and which is the anvil?:?:

[Canuck Bob]

Unless the Rangers themselves are offered the rifles I doubt they will see any surplus outlet, not our government.

There is a rumor that the the new Ruger Gunsite Carbine is being evaluated for the Rangers. The Canadian version is stainless and has a longer barrel with no flash hider. It is supposed to be the model under consideration. There are some Rangers here maybe they can sort out the fact from fiction!

There were or are Rangers on the Canadian West Coast as well of all races. It was a WW2 initiative. They were issued 30-30 Winchester 94s complete with Military stamps and the Canadian Broad Arrow on the stock. They come up for sale occasionally but fetch a tidy price.

It is still wonderful that in 2011 the LE Mk.4 is still on psuedo-active duty here. It makes this Canuck smile. And once our homeland was defended by stalwart Canadian men wielding 30-30s is as charming as it is deadly.

[Red River Rick]

Maybe the Military shouldn't have sold off all those surplus parts years ago.

Not all that long ago, Marstar had B/N Longbranch #4 MKII barrels for sale, for around $75. Same with the would, complete set for $50.

As far as .303 ammo goes, Canada has millions of rounds still in stock. Most of it in storage at Dundurn SK. So, if they get rid of the #4's, there may be some good surplus guns, parts and ammo coming available.

Keep your fingers crossed!

RRR

[Rio Grande]

I like trees, whales, hemp, birkenstocks, patchouli-wearin' girls that don't shave their armpits, and I don't care to spank children.
But one must draw the line somewhere - no decaf latte!
AND I've been shooting Brit .303's of all kinds for 40 years and ain't going to stop any time soon. Send some of those Canuck rifles my way!

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=

"As far as .303 ammo goes, Canada has millions of rounds still in stock. Most of it in storage at Dundurn SK."

Co-incidence. Dundurn, Saskatchewan is the Camp where I was first issued a #4 Mk1* ( in the summer of 1958). It was #85L7408, and I'd still like to meet that rifle one more time. We shared a lot of hot, dusty days on the ranges and in tactical training.

They may have millions of rounds in storage, but as I mentioned above, IVI was making new runs of MkVIIIz withBboxer primers as late as the mid-'80s. I shot a lot of it!

You wouldn't want most of those ex-Ranger #4 rifles. The reason they were issued another rifle each year, WITHOUT returning the previous one, was that the rifles were so severely damaged in that service as to be unserviceable after a year. Salt-water corrosion and super cold (meaning condensation on metal parts) were the main culprits, abetted by horrendous lack of maintenance by most members.

[Multigunner]

I'd read that several comapnies made runs of .303 ammo during the 80's intended for use in BREN guns brought out of storage for use in the Falklands dust up.
I've seen photos of the .303 BREN gun in service with British troops alongside the 7.62 Chambered BREN guns during that time frame.

Whether they intended to use the unaltered .303 guns in combat or in training freshly manufactured ammo would have been called for.

India manufactures their Mk7z .303 ammo with notes that its intended for both rifles and MGs.
The Indian .303 ammo specs say it has a shelf life of only 5 years "when EC compound is used".
This may be a form of the very short lived priming compound once suggested for civilian ammo to prevent stockpiling by would be revolutionaries.
That priming compound would go sour within ten years at best. I don't think they carried that idea past the planing stage anywhere else.

NATO regs mandate a regular course of inspections for ammo held in storage for any great length of time.

[Canuck Bob]

Here is a link for info;

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=32774

[quasi]

Multigunner, the Brits used Bren guns converted to 7.62 Nato in the Falklands, not .303.

Bruce, there are Rangers in every Canadian province and territory, there is around 5000 right now. IVI makes .303 ball and softnose every few years, I have IVI brass marked 2003 or 2004 or so, I can not remember exactly. I obtained these from a Ranger who's Patrol is located by Grand Prarie, Alberta. Each Ranger is issued 200 rds per year.

[Multigunner]

Multigunner, the Brits used Bren guns converted to 7.62 Nato in the Falklands, not .303.

Bruce, there are Rangers in every Canadian province and territory, there is around 5000 right now. IVI makes .303 ball and softnose every few years, I have IVI brass marked 2003 or 2004 or so, I can not remember exactly. I obtained these from a Ranger who's Patrol is located by Grand Prarie, Alberta. Each Ranger is issued 200 rds per year.


I know that the BREN converted to 7.62 NATO was the standard at that time, there was a very clear photo of two BREN gunners in the Falklands, one carrying the 7.62 version with nearly straight magazine and the other carrying the WW2 era BREN with deeply curved magazine.
This was part of an article on the BREN in a magazine printed a few years after the Falkland campaign. The caption said that a few .303 BREN guns had been put into service to make up for a shortage of the 7.62 NATO LMGs in regular service at the time.
While these men may have been part of a training exercise the text of the article lead me to believe they had used the .303 BRENs in combat.

The run up to the Falklands campaign seems in some aspects to have been nearly as much a Chinese fire drill as the early WW2 British expedition to Norway.

IIRC IVI (Industries Valcartier Inc., ) bought up the old Dominion facilities. Probably still using the WW2 tooling with upgrades.

PS
Found that according to Peter Laidler the BREN in .303 caliber was still used for Cadet training well into the 1990's, so unmodified BRENS were still in inventory till then at least.

[Dead Dog Jack]

Man, there oughta be a law against scrapping/destroying/'dumping' milsurps.

Agreed a hundred times over. Where's the logic in a government spending money to destroy something that you could make money from?

Wait...did I use the words logic and government in the same sentence? :rolleyes:

[badge176]

"Those rifles might break out of the storage utilized by responsible gun owners and collectors to run rampant around the countryside killing innocents and animals without remorse..."

wait, a rifle is a tool and is a oversized paper weight if not in the hands of a person.

Even as far back as the Roman Empire some folks understood it... "it is not the sword but the hand that wields it that commits murder" or something like that in Latin.

End of sarcastic rant...