Stearic Acid

[BABore]

Got a question for the lube experts. Can stearic acid be used in place of the Ivory soap flakes for making Felix and similar lubes. When I made my first batch of Felix lube I was pretty green yet. I bought a bog ole jar of stearic acid from MMS (hippy store). According to the hippies, it's a thickener or stiffener for their soap making adventures. Getting ready to make another batch of lube and would like to use it if it's ok. Can't remember exactly how much I used in a double batch of the standard Felix recipe, but it wasn't much. Like maybe a teaspoon. So any recommended amount would be appreaciated. I'm planning on making a half batch of 357Max's Voodoo lube with 2.5 lbs of beeswax. I also just ordered 20 lbs of raw yellow beeswax, from a Michigan supplier, for $2.05/lb + shipping if anybody cares.

[Dale53]

Up front, I cannot answer the question for you. However, I can point you to a source. Charlie Dell did a serious investigation of bullet lubes for schuetzen use in his book, "The Modern Schuetzen" (co-authored with Wayne Schwartz). He has a rather complete discussion of various agents used in bullet lubes. Really interesting and a recommended read (along with the rest of the book). Records have been set with his recommended bullet lubes. Charlie "told all" and hid nothing in his experiments. Materials, amounts, and sources were all discussed at length.

Rudi Prusok, archivist for ASSRA (the American Single Shot Association), has copies for sale at: e-mail at rprusok@nmu.edu

Dale53

[lurch]

I'd be interested in who that beeswax supplier in MI was. FWIW - I have some (lots) of the "hippies" stearic acid as well. I seem to recall a post by Felix somewhere around here (or maybe it was over at castpics...) that it was OK, but I'll definitely defer to somebody who might actually know what they are talking about...

I've made up a couple of batches with it and it seems like the "right" amount is about a little less than a tsp in a single size batch. I tried two in a single batch and the stuff was not really going through the sizer without a little warming up - not much, just a little. I didn't measure the temperature but it was slightly warm to the touch - if that really means anything from one person to another... I remelted it and added another tsp of the oils (castor/mineral combo) to about half of the batch and it's flowing a lot better. The batch with one tsp seemed to flow OK but was still a little stiff for my sizer's liking. Shoots good, groups as good as or better than anything else out of my Redhawk & 586. Maybe I just need to add a little more oil up front & be done with it.

Look at it this way: If it doesn't work, add some more pretty smelling oils & what not from the hippies and call it hand cream - organic even.......

[BABore]

It looks like stearic acid is a stiffener. What is the purpose of the ivory soap? From what I've gathered it keeps the other components in solution and prevents layering upon cooling. Does stearic acid do the same thing? Are they interchangable? Where's Felix when you need him.

Here's the link for the beeswax source;

http://www.groebfarms.com/

And this is the email I got from them about a year or so ago;

Yes we do carry beeswax. Our raw yellow wax sells for $1.95 a pound. Dark raw sells for $1.85 a pound. Our processed yellow sells for $2.85 a pound and our dark processed sells for $2.50 a pound. However before coming give us a call to make sure we have it on hand. If we can be of further help let us know. Phone # 517-467-2065

Thank you
Groeb Farms

Prices have since gone up a bit. Yesterday I paid 2.05/lb for raw yellow.

[lurch]

That's my impression of what is happening. The stearic acid works to keep things together upon cooling and keep the castor oil in the wax carrier longer term. This is the same function as the soap. The amount required is evidently considerably less that the soap as well. But I'm definitely not the expert.

[felix]

Sorry, guys, I have not seen the thread until now. Prolly been looking at it for some time with eyeballs, but my eyeballs, as determined by my shooting as of late, are no longer reliable. Could it be a brain malfunction? Can't rule that one out. ...... Yes, stearic acid is a soap, and is not really a metal eating acid when using our definition for an acid. However, it is a soap without a metal component attatched to it. When attatching sodium to stearic acid, we would call that product sodium stearate. Sodium stearate is normally chosen as the "glue" instead of stearic acid is because sodium stearate raises the melting point of the final lube. Stearic acid actually lowers the melting point of a lube. For cold weather, OK, use the stearic acid. Cold weather lube should be completely be melted at less than 140 degrees, perhaps lower would be mo-betta. Keep in mind that folks cannot ice skate (for real) on ice that is colder than about 28 degrees. What you want to skate on is water, not ice. The blades must be thin enough to melt the ice underneith. Same for our lube. We want it to be as liquid as possible when the boolit is traveling down the barrel, but with enough remaining "viscosity" to insulate the barrel from the boolit. In summary, it is OK to use stearic acid. ... felix

[BABore]

Any recommendations on amounts? When I made your lube in a double batch, I used 1 tsp. Things seemed to work out, but I had nothing to compare it to.

I will be making a half batch of Mike's Voodoo lube with:

1/2 Tbls Lanolin
1/2 Tbls Jojoba oil
1/2 Tbls Orange oil
1/2 Tbls JPW
2 1/2 Lbs Beeswax

I'm thinking 1-2 tsp of Stearic acid, but it's a WAG.

[felix]

Looks like a good trial lube. The stearic acid could be used as shown without problems, but might not be needed. Mix up the batch and see if there is any seperation upon cooling. Slice the COLD lube looking for layers. If layers, then remelt and include the stearic acid. And, then re-do the operation with more stearic acid until no more layering is seen. If the lube is too hot when slicing, you will smear the cut line and won't see anything useful. Point number two: Prolly won't need both jojoba and orange. Make three batches: one with orange, one with jojoba, and one with both as shown. You must SHOOT the three batches to see if there is any "real" difference. Each lube might have to be adjusted for the application, but that is to be expected. In other words, make each batch the best it can be for the application. ... felix

[357maximum]

Any recommendations on amounts? When I made your lube in a double batch, I used 1 tsp. Things seemed to work out, but I had nothing to compare it to.

I will be making a half batch of Mike's Voodoo lube with:

1/2 Tbls Lanolin
1/2 Tbls Jojoba oil
1/2 Tbls Orange oil
1/2 Tbls JPW
2 1/2 Lbs Beeswax

I'm thinking 1-2 tsp of Stearic acid, but it's a WAG.


BABORE

Start with 1/2 tsp stearic...2 tsp is too much (I.M(guns)H.O)...keep the jojoba at all costs...the orange oil can be eliminated if you are shooting in 35 caliber or over...but I would definately keep it unless shooting 45 cal or over..and I would definately keep it still if you ar going over 1.7K no matter the bore size....Depending on climate conditions you can add more jojoba if it is being shot in cool environments (50 deg F, or colder)... for the above recipe in below frezzing temps 2 TBLSP would not be "too much" ... general recipes are general for all the reason FELIX has pointed out....each gun and each load can want a little different mix dpending on conditions and abuse it is subjected to when searching for "ultimate cast accuracy"...some people would call it the "sweet spot". I have give up looking for "ultimate" and have settled with "excellent" accuracy. ....

If you find that you get an occassional flyer that you cannot blame on yourself...add more jojoba...till it stops throwing odd ones.

You are going to have a stiff lube, that is not messy, but will require a "warm" sizer..add the orange oil and lanolin after the heat is off and the lube has cooled a bit..both will burn away rather easily..

Michael

[Bad Flynch]

>Yes, stearic acid is a soap...<

I would like to correct a little chemistry here, before we go too far astray. Stearic Acid is a free fatty acid, called free because it has neither glycerin nor a metal attached to the acid. Stearic acid would be found as a free fatty acid in tallow and bound as part of the glyceryl mono-, di- and tri- stearates found there. The long-chained free-fatty acids are relatively weak acids, but combine readily with metallic and some other cations to form soaps. Many of the soaps so formed are basic in nature (have a pH above 7.0) because they are the salts of a relatively weak acid and a strong base. An expample is the Sodium Stearate, and Sodium Tallowates, which ordinarily give basic solutions because of the strong mineral base, Sodium, assumed to be from Sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Carbonate. That is one of the reasons that the old home made soaps were so tough on the skin (which is ordinarily acid -- has a low pH, below 7.0) and the fact that many home made soaps contained excess alkali. Highly refined soaps have the excess alkali (base) removed and are kinder to the skin.

Ivory soap contains Sodium Tallowate, which contains the sodium salts of Tallow, a very complex mixture. It is listed as such on a small label so that the tedious process of listing all the ingredients is avoided. Sodium Tallowate is a complex soap, much like Castile Soap is a complex soap made from Olive Oil, classically.

One of the ingredients in Sodium Tallowate is, in fact, Sodium Stearate, the sodium salt of stearic acid. We call the salts of long-chain fatty acids, soaps.

Soaps may be made from Sodium, Potassium (as in Castile Soap), or Lithium (as in automobile chassis grease), calcium (as in Alox, water pump grease, etc.) Aluminum (as in some wheel bearing greases for boat trailers), Ammonium (as the ammonium oleate in some gun cleaners). Most sodium, potassium, and Ammonium soaps are water soluble, but become insoluble when exposed to the mineral (calcium and magnesium) of hard water (that makes the soap scum). Calcium, Aluminum, and Magnesium soaps are not water soluble, (but are technically soaps because they are salts of long-chained fatty acids), and are used in wet applications as listed above.

If you use plain stearic acid, then it is not yet a soap and you are dealing with it and a slightly different set a characteristics than the soap form, even though there may be some common characteristics.

[felix]

Seems BadFlynch should be my nickname instead. I truly "flynched" on describing the term "soap" by treating it as a nit, nada, zero in my previous discussions, where more emphasis should have been placed. Thanks indeed for the corrections and their corresponding detail. ... felix

[catboat]

I hope I get my chemistry right...

Fatty acids react with calcium to form a matrix, and as a result, will stiffen a blend of material.

Saponification, in lube terms, is adding soap (true soap) to increase a melting point-and hence stiffening a lube.

FWIW, a newsprint deinking facility uses a devise called a "floatation cell" in which pulp (pulped recycled newsprint) is hit with air, to have air bubbles attach to the ink particles-then rise to the top of the cell. The inky foam is then skimmed off, and the deinking pulp moves to the next stage.

The deink cell has an additive pumped to it, which has part dispersant, soap, and other goodies in it. Sometimes the soap component is synthetic, other times it is a fatty acid. Sometimes it is a blend. To make the fatty acid soap formulation to work as an effective deinking agent, the water needs to have a certain hardness (about 100-125 ppm of Calcium). Calcium cloride can be added. Its' also a reason why magazines are added in the pulper too, not just newspint. The calcium carbonate from the coatings or paper filler contributes to increasing the hardness of the water to make the deinking/floatation cell more efficient.

Lubes aren't all that different in terms of soaps /fatty acids/calcium to create a modified (sometimes improved) new additive. There is probably a minimum level of calcium needed for each batch of lube made with fatty acids to change melting points or lube efficiencies.

If you melt a beeswax based lube, and add neatsfoot oil (or lanolin, derived from sheep I believe-both are fatty acids), you will get a lube with a certain melting point. You can increase the melting point of the beeswax/neatsfoot oil (or lanolin) lube if you add a small amount of pure soap (that is a true fatty acid, or additional lanolin/neatsfoot oil) while melting the mixture. Don't get it too hot, or it will boil over. The added soap to the beeswax/neatsfoot oil (or lanolin) will lead to a saponification process/reaction to the mixture, and will result in a lube with a higher melting point.

If I remember correctly, Ivory soap is not a true soap anymore. I think Fels-naptha bar soap (sp?) and Neutrogena bar soap (sp?) still is a "true soap" (contains fatty acid). Murphy's oil soap may be used too-but I can't remember for sure if it contains fatty acids (email them and ask).

I DO use Murphy's oil soap in my blackpowder cleaning/patch lube with good success (equal volumes parts of murphy's oil soap (or generic):rubbing alcohol or auto antifreeze: drug store hydrogen peroxide. Ratios aren't critical. Cuts blackpowder fouling fast, and is a good patch lube to boot.

Probably more information that you needed or wanted, but it's interesting how chemistry impacts different things in similar fashion.

[MtGun44]

Well, I'm impressed and if I read these post over a few more times,
I hope to learn some more about this fascinating part of cast
boolits!

Thanks guys! :-D

Bill

[Bad Flynch]

If it is any help, this is a standard dictionary definition of saponification:

transitive verb : to convert (as fat) into soap; specifically : to hydrolyze (a fat) with alkali to form a soap and glycerol
intransitive verb : to undergo saponifying

When dealing in specific areas of craft, trade, knowledge, art, or profession, one often sees standard terms redefined to suit the discipline at hand. However, if you use the term, the above is what will come to people's minds first.

[Ricochet]

I wouldn't add calcium chloride to any boolit lube. It's a very hygroscopic, highly corrosive salt.