Swedish Model 1867 Rolling Block rifle12.7X44R

[guninhand]

I know a source for a Swedish Model 1867 Rolling Block rifle. {12.7X44R centerfire}. Is anyone here shooting such a gun? Bore condition? Results? Can 12.7X44 brass be made from 45-70 brass?

This gun is pricey but has to be shipped to me so I won't get a hands-on inspection first. Bore is described as "nice".

[Boz330]

How pricey, and is it still in military configuration except for the centerfire conversion? KEBCO had some back in Nov for $200 that had been sporterized.
Brass can be made from .348 Winchester and I think 50-70. You might check with Buffalo Arms as well. Below is a link that will answer some of your questions. One of these things is on my wish list as well, but was to late on the last batch.

http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/rb.htmls.

Bob

[wills]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=13&catid=39&step=2

or

http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/12744r.html

[Boz330]

Not hardly worth fooling with them for that price.

[mag44uk]

Just been down this route for a lovely RRB carbine (UK price = $1000 ! )
A friend made the spuds to use with the Lyman 50/70 die set as I had a few 348 winchester cases left over from a Vetterli case making project.
We followed the above mentioned article.
It was a pain in the proverbial. Every other case split. Managed to recover a few and make them into Vetterli cases.
Save yourself a lot of grief and get them from Buff Arms.
Regards from wet and cold UK.
Tony

[Boz330]

[
Regards from wet and cold UK.
Tony[/QUOTE]

Not much better here.
I did manage to snag one of the Swede RB in 8MM. Got several cases from BA for it and it is much easier to just load and not have to worry about forming cases. The other thing is that .348 cases aren't that easy to come by and 50-70 cases aren't that cheap to be tearing up.

Bob

[guninhand]

Thanks folks. That's all the info I need. They want $725 US plus shipping. They say G to VG with nice bore. No splits or cracks on stock, full military configuration. Pics show clean screw slots and they have a rep for honest description.

[Boz330]

You are welcome. That sounds on the low side of the prices I have seen for military in that sort of condition. Have fun with it.

Bob

[mozark]

You'll never regret aquiring one of the '67 Swedes. I have a sporter, although it's almost in original configuration , the barrel and stock shortened 2". Mines one of the 1868 Remington actions delivered along with complete rifles to Sweden in 1868. Original Breech-block and Hammer. Many of the sporters don't have their original Blocks and Hammers, and the country gunsmithing replacements sometimes leave a bit to be desired.

I hunt with it often, and find that it comes out of the cabinet a lot for papar punching too. Very accurate. Don't let anyone tell you that 50 caliber won't print under MOA. The lands are very tall. The bores are beautiful, like whitworth rifling. Bores are around .480, while grooves are .515 or more. Throats are tight. I shoot .512 450's. More than .512 won't chamber. 67GOEX FFG, .030 veg. wad, .290 compression. 1210 fps. No leading. No cutting. Average deviation 6fps. All in spite of .515 groove.

I've had zero luck with BP substitutes and or smokless in mine. Spent quite a bit of time trying.

MM

BTW, I'm new here. Great site. Finally found something I know a little about.

Just starting to play with cast in smallbore. Thanks.

[mag44uk]

Hi Mozark (et al),
Thats really interesting about your efforts to reload this cartridge.
As you see from my post above I have the gun and have laboriously formed 20 cases.
I slugged the bore with a soft lead round ball and have a diameter of 0.515.
I have cast a load of bullety things in a Lyman mould (I think 515141 off hand ) which cast at 0.515. I was going to not size but pan lube,load and fire.
I put one bullet in a case and it is really tight to chamber. I can barely close the block and even if I could I would be reluctant to fire it:confused:
I was thinking of using AA5744 as it works ok in my 45/70 but I have plenty of swiss 1.5 and 2 fg.
I will have to look at getting a 0.512 sizer for the ol rcbs luber and go from there.
Thanks for posting your loading details for this cartidge.

Hi Boz330.
I was in KY in October for the MG shoot and it was pretty cold then. Had to go out and buy warmer clothing! I was there 3 years ago in October and it was jeans/T shirts all week. Whats going on with the weather??

Regards,
Tony

[mozark]

Hi Tony,

You'll have a great time with this cartridge once you start shooting it. As you've found out groove dia. bullets won't work, the throats are too tight. I think that the original Swede Military Ball was a .506 bullet of 350 grains over around 70 grains BP, with sheeps tallow lube. MV around 1400 fps. The nice thing about .512 bullets, at least in my rifle, is that no sizing of cases is necessary, just a slight belling of the mouth. This produces a tight slip fit with just enough tension to prevent the bullet from being pulled with thumb and forefinger. No crimp.

The bullet that works best for me is a 450, 4 lube groove RFN that I get from Buffalo Arms. I believe that its from a custom mould. When I get set up and start casting I'll have a mould made to match it. I shoot the Lyman 515141 in mine some, as well. It does reasonably well, a shade over MOA, but not so well as the 450. I do hunt with the 515141, as all the Lube grooves are in the case. With the other bullet I have one lube groove exposed. I had much less success with 350 grain bullets. Things really started to come together when I dropped smokeless and went to 425/450 grain bullets. I think that the tight throat vs. groove dia. issue is may be why smokeless performs so poorly in this cartridge.

If you haven't done so allready, I recommend fileing a notch in the rim of each case. Use this mark to orient the case in the chamber the same way each time it's loaded.

MM

[guninhand]

Those are encouraging posts, mag and mozart. I knew it had tall lands and figured I'd have to track down a hollow point mould, or shoot a .515 loaded scheutzen style. I have a 71Mauser in .43 Mauser with tall lands and have to load a 0.452 scheutzen style to get a semblance of accuracy.

[mozark]

guninhand

.512 Bullet, .515 groove dia, and nowhere near engraving on the lands. Kind of flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but it works.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7df39b3127cce80b975e89e5500000016108Acs2bJq0atL
Maybe the lead displaced by the beefy lands seals the grooves? I don't know, but I'm not complaining.

MM

[Boz330]

Mag44,
Beats me, that was the last time we had much cold weather. Global warming I guess. Hell it was 70dF last weekend. It did get cold this past week and is supposed to be this weekend with snow on Sunday. The opening weekend of deer season was colder than a well digger's a$$ and normally it's not that bad.
Knob Creek Range isn't that far fom me. Where did you come in from? I see the uk in your screen name surely that's not for United Kingdom is it.

Bob

[Boz330]

There is still some KY north of me but not much and they get the same weather that we do.
The reason that I was curious is the shoot that he refers to is a machine gun shoot. You can just barely own a rifle in England let alone a machine gun. Although maybe it is a Gattling gun and they were even BP so is still on topic. What a hoot that would be, at least till reloading time. I wonder how many cranks before the line would be obscured.

Bob

[mag44uk]

Mozark.
That is a damned impressive group you have shot there:-D
I am not sure my carbine will match that as its only got about 18 inches of barrel!!
I will let you know how I get on with it.

I am in the UK and shooting here isnt as bad as you may believe. Cant own cartridge pistols apart from some antique types. No semiauto full bore rifles and no MG`s. We have never had a high cap magazine ban!! We own a lot of 10/22`s with 25 and 50 round mags.
Antique rifles are easy to own as you dont need a licence.Mad as it is you need a licence if you intend to shoot them!! They are defined as antique if the cartridge is not nanufactured.
Have been to Knob Creek 3 times now and always have a good time.
The people are great and always make us welcome.
You guys dont realise how cheap your shooting is:roll:

Cheers,
Tony

[Boz330]

Actually I do since I spent a couple years in South Africa. Have a very good friend from the UK who as we converse is winging towards The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia. He has a contract to work on some NASA project. He is hoping to get his Green card and live permanently in the states after that. He and his wife visited last summer and were amazed at how many things are half price here. That doesn't apply to CA. though, it is one of the higher cost of living areas. KY on the other hand is one of the lower.
Ky and Louisville is known for its hospitality. But as is evident on this board people of like interest tend to get along very well anyway. While you were here did you get a chance to go through the Frazier Arms Museum in downtown Louisville, well worth the trip? There is a lot of English stuff in there since they have some sort of loan deal with the tower of London. If you come next year give a holler and maybe we can get together for a pint.

Bob

[mag44uk]

its all in a good cause[smilie=1:
Hi Bob.
Yes we have been to the museum and its a real gem of a place. As you say the top floor is linked with the Royal Armouries based in Leeds in the UK. Exactly the same layout and they do the interpretations which are excellent. The armoury in Leeds is a place I have been to many times. Its one reason why I have made the trip to Knob Creek:-D .
The guys in a gunshop called shooter supply on vine crest avenue put us onto that.
I wasnt going to go back to KC but was talking to some of the guys on saturday and the murmuring has started about another trip. Prolly be April 2008. Need to save up as just about to start an extention to the house this year.:roll:
Would be good to meet up for that beer though:drinks:
Regards,
Tony

[Ecramer]

I realize I'm resurrecting a really old thread, but none of the links above work. I have one of these, and I"m trying to figure out what to shoot through it. The .515 bullets for my .50-70 are clearly too large. (They fit to the first driving band in the muzzle of the .50-70 2nd Allin conversion -- it would take a hammer to get them much past the ogive into the muzzle of the Rolling Block).

This Rolling Block was sold to me as 12.7x44R. I haven't yet slugged the bore, but it is clearly to large to be either an 8mm or any of the various .43s on the Rolling Block (and it is marked H for Husqvarna, so it's not a 43 unless it's been rebarreld, and it's still in full military rig).

So bottom line, I'm confused and looking for help.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Ecramer,

My Swedish RB measure .484" - .516" bore/land. I have an original 355 grains boolit I found in an old Swedish barn. The GG boolit is a heeled hollow base with a rather thin skirt and measures .504 on the outside and .484" over the heel. I believe the Swedes rifling, with a depth of .016" :shock: was designed for a hollow base boolit to expand and seal the base, while the deep grooves would somewhat keep the fouling in check.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8453/img1470lz.jpg

I'm still contemplating, whether to ream my RB to 50-70 and just accept the boolits are going to be swaged into a hexagonal nut shape - or if I should make a hollow base mold in the original design, but minus the heel and perhaps a little heavier. I will still be using 50-70 brass so I'll probably have to make a special sizing die as well.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've just bought one of these original Swedish RB's. Came with some commercial cases which are quite, well different with a raised center reinforce around the primer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/SwedeRB_B.jpg

50/70 (left) simply don't fit, so I reformed some 348 Winchester (middle) which fit but will require fireforming

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/SwedeRB_A.jpg

[enfield]

make brass from 348 winny, I use a 450 gr Lee as cast and a 340 gr Lyman as cast ( both are about .515 ) you may have to adjust case length to suite your rifle but my cases are 1.73 and the bullits are seated out to expose the first grease groove. One rifle I index the brass so it always goes in the same way ( otherwise it wont chamber ) and sometimes a little bump in the 50-70 resize die with the deprimer removed is necessary to be able to chamber the round. ( I dont resize the cases, just deprime with the Lee decapper ) black powder works good as does 21 gr 4759 (no filler) and 10.5 gr trailboss ( scotty uses 10 gr and I want my boolits to go further than his [smilie=1:) hope this helps. great old guns these sweetish blocks !

[wills]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Search.aspx?TERM=12.7

[Ecramer]

Thanks for the help. Obviously I'm going to have to slug the bore. The rifling is very strong and I'd like to make this a good shooter.

[Scotty]

make brass from 348 winny, I use a 450 gr Lee as cast and a 340 gr Lyman as cast ( both are about .515 ) you may have to adjust case length to suite your rifle but my cases are 1.73 and the bullits are seated out to expose the first grease groove. One rifle I index the brass so it always goes in the same way ( otherwise it wont chamber ) and sometimes a little bump in the 50-70 resize die with the deprimer removed is necessary to be able to chamber the round. ( I dont resize the cases, just deprime with the Lee decapper ) black powder works good as does 21 gr 4759 (no filler) and 10.5 gr trailboss ( scotty uses 10 gr and I want my boolits to go further than his [smilie=1:) hope this helps. great old guns these sweetish blocks !

Where is my 10.6 grain LEE scoop at :-P

[gandydancer]

Just sold 80 rounds of 50/120 custom made bell brass with the wrong cal stamped on it (50/70) I wanted 50/110 markings and my last name stamped in it (GETCH) purchased it about 20 years ago and never used any. in 1999 I purchased 5 five rolling blocks from George Layman a 43 egyptian an 8 mm label a7x57 used in the mexican revolution and 2 two 50/70 gov new york markings on them for $1500.00 george layman is the man who wrote the book on remington rolling block rifles sold the brass about 4 months ago cheap. and the rifles about 10 years ago for around $600.00 bucks each. I tell you this only because if you feel you have done somethin stupit just go back and read this again for a real dumn ***. also in the same buy a full box of custom made in 1956 (for bill ruger 50 rds) no markings on the brass or box the then new caliber called a 44 magnum 1/2 I gave away the other 1/2 I still have. say what?? DUMNASS.

[Scotty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVHJY6KhBE