Leading problem

[Cntrmass]

I shot some of my newly cast 250 grain lee bullets(no gas checks)
and got a lot of leading.
Either I didn't get the right amount of tin or I'm pushing them too hard?

I couldn't chrono the load but, whats too fast when I get a chance?
I used the lee sizer with alox.

Please any ideas?

[hunter64]

What were the bullets sized too? If they are to small for your barrel that will cause leading. Not enough lube? Too soft of lead? Did you air cool the bullets or drop them into a pail of water to water quench? What caliber/powder/charge etc. are we talking about? Need more info.

[cbrick]

That's not a lot of info to answer such a question. What is too fast for what? What's the load? Is it a tumble lube bullet? What caliber and what kind of firearm? What diameter was it sized to and what does the bore slug measure?

Its extremely doubtful that the leading was caused by too much or too little tin. Tin has the effect of lowering the surface tension of the melt thus allowing the mould to fill out better. It also adds "minor" hardening to the alloy. I have shot wheel weight from no added tin to 5% added tin and never had a leading issue because of it. Anything over 2-3% though would be wasteful.

Rick

[Cntrmass]

okay i used the lee sizer .452
the bullets were tumble lubed per the directions.

the firearms a ruger bisley 45 colt.
The load was 17 grains of 2400. with a cci primer.

the bullets measure 452 after sizing.


I was asking what kind of speed will a lead bullet achieve without leading?

not sure what I did wrong.

thanks for any ideas.

[cbrick]

okay i used the lee sizer .452
the bullets were tumble lubed per the directions.
the firearms a ruger bisley 45 colt.
The load was 17 grains of 2400. with a cci primer.
the bullets measure 452 after sizing.
I was asking what kind of speed will a lead bullet achieve without leading?
not sure what I did wrong.
thanks for any ideas.


Cntrmass, what speed will it lead depends on a great many factors. I shoot wheel weight 190 gr from my FA 357 @ 1550 fps and zero leading after 800 rounds fired. Wheel weight in my 308 heat treated to 20 BHN does almost 2400 fps.

From the info you have provided so far I would venture a SWAG as throat diameter vs your .452" sized diameter. A tumble lube bullet vs conventional lube groove could play a part but in my experience in revolvers its more often a bullet fit in the throat issue rather than a lube issue.

The revolver itself palys a role here also. Bullets must fit the throat snugly but the groove diameter of the bore "must" be at or under throat diameter. If groove diameter is larger your fighting a tough uphill battle and the revolver will need to be fixed by the factory or a good smith.

Have you slugged the throats and the bore of your revolver? Would be the best place to start.

Rick

[44man]

I agree, those Ruger .45's almost always need the throats reamed. The factory will not fix them, I am sure, because they will say they are in specs. Pushing a .452 boolit through 6 size dies and making them smaller then the bore will ensure leading.
They need measured. Try to thumb push a .452 boolit through them and if they don't fit smoothly through, PM me and I can help. You need .4525 to 453 throats.

[MtGun44]

44man is spot on. I just reamed out my Ruger .45LC/.45ACP Blackhawk from
.449 in .45ACP and .450 in .45LC to .452. Accuracy is more consistent, leading
has not been a problem, but I have not shot any hot loads in it yet.

You probably are resizing the bullets down to ~.450 in the undersized throats and
they then get flame cut due to leakage in the .452 barrel with a heavy load like
that, which is your cause of the leading.

Light load may not lead as badly, but likely the root cause is undersized
throats. The only accurate measurement is with gauge pins IMHO, but you
can do a workable job pushing different sized bullets thru the throats. You
need .452 to .453. My bore slugged .4515", but yours may be different. The
Rugers usually seem to go very close to .452 in the barrel, but too tight in the
throats. I have read that current production is better on these fit numbers.

Bill

[Cntrmass]

Okay, a sized and lubed bullets pushes through the cylinder and takes off most of the alox on the bullet.

It seems fairly tight but goes through with thumb pressure. Is this the problem?
or do i need to go to a gas checked design?

[slughammer]

Where is the leading? Forcing cone or up near the muzzle?

Did you lube first, then size and then apply another coat of lube?

[dakotashooter2]

Sounds like the bullets are the correct size for your throats but you still need to slug your bore. The bullets still may be undersized for your bore. Hve you tried the bullets "as dropped" without sizing them?

[45r]

you might want to try 8.6 grains power pistol and win primers,this has worked well in every 45 colt I've tested.My third generation colt with .456 throats will shoot 2 to 3 inch at 30 yards with 270 saa rcbs sized .454 with good lube.My redhawk will pile these bullets into a ragged hole sized .452 with 9.0 power pistol.These loads are in the 900 to 1000 fps range and do not lead with plain base bullets.I firelap my revolvers and that will help also.My redhawk will barely let a .451 nosler slip through it's throats but is so accurate people are allways asking if I want to sell it.You can probably guess what my answer is.Your blackhawk probably just has'nt seen the load it likes yet.It's a 45 though and you got the best caliber for cast bullets.In my humble opinion anyway.If power pistol don't work try 20.0 imr 4227 with mag primers.Sometimes the slowest powder that burns clean enough works best with a plain base bullet.

[45r]

you might want to try 8.6 grains power pistol and win primers,this has worked well in every 45 colt I've tested.My third generation colt with .456 throats will shoot 2 to 3 inch at 30 yards with 270 saa rcbs sized .454 with good lube.My redhawk will pile these bullets into a ragged hole sized .452 with 9.0 power pistol.These loads are in the 900 to 1000 fps range and do not lead with plain base bullets.I firelap my revolvers and that will help also.My redhawk will barely let a .451 nosler slip through it's throats but is so accurate people are allways asking if I want to sell it.You can probably guess what my answer is.Your blackhawk probably just has'nt seen the load it likes yet.It's a 45 though and you got the best caliber for cast bullets.In my humble opinion anyway.If power pistol don't work try 20.0 imr 4227 with mag primers.Sometimes the slowest powder that burns clean enough works best with a plain base bullet.

[Cntrmass]

Yes thats how I lubed.
The lead was pretty much top to bottom.

I checked a few more rounds and it seems the cylinders are too small.
Should they wipe all the lube off the bullet as it's pushed through?

[44man]

A .452 boolit should slip through fairly easy and a .453 should take a little pressure. You should still try and slug the bore and throats or measure the throats with a good tool.

[Ricochet]

Yet another factor is the gas temperature of the powder being used.

In .44 Magnum over the years I've shot a lot of swaged 240 grain semiwadcutters of lead similar to .22 rimfire bullets with dry wax lubrication just like the .22s. The original Remington and Winchester factory loads used such bullets with a gas check and worked great for full power loads. (The originals were hotter than they were after they'd been on the market for a little while and got slightly reduced, in fact.) I used to buy those bullets from Winchester, but when they stopped selling them as components I tried the plain based but otherwise similar ones from Speer. Those are intended for mild loads, for which they work well, but I tried pushing them. I got horrible leading when using 2400, but with 296 and surplus WC820, I found I could push them as high as 1575 FPS in my Super Blackhawk with a tolerable level of mild leading. 2400 is a double based powder that burns pretty hot, while the latter two powders are Ball powders with a high percentage of deterrent that cools their flame temperature. (The deterrent coating on 2400 is dinitrotoluene, itself an energetic compound, while that on the Olin Ball powders is dibutyl phthalate, a fuel that needs added oxygen to burn.)

[Dale53]

I would really like to help any person on here who has had leading problems. However, I am handicapped in that I have almost never had any experience with leading. That limits my responses to "guessing" what will help. I know what DOES work, I just don't know, for sure, what DOESN'T work.

I was just an ignorant teen ager back in the late forties when I became interested in pistols and revolvers (my father was a gunny and encouraged me). One of my early purchases was an S&W .357 magnum with 6.5" barrel. Man what a beauty. I was a disciple of Elmer Keith and had his little book "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" published in 1936. In fact, I still have it and refer to it from time to time. Elmer was way ahead of his time, told the absolute truth, and I used his book as a textbook. Many were disappointed in the .357 Magnum at the time because of terrific leading with FACTORY loads. Elmer discussed this, so right after I bought the revolver (had to save for weeks and weeks as I worked for $20.00 per week, winter and summer) I got a Lyman mould, pot and dipper. At first, I was deliriously happy when I could make 20-50 bullets at one session. I loaded full house with 2400 and began the long journey to becoming a revolver shot. My dad bought a Detroit bullet trap that would handle full house .357 magnums and we set it up in our shop (about twenty five feet). You REALLY needed ear protection shooting that revolver indoors (a converted house housed our repair shop and hardware store).

Later, I joined a gun club and could shoot outdoors near town (I had grand parents who had a 150 acre farm an hour away and I shot there on weekends).

At any rate, the point of this whole long tale, is that I followed Elmer's advice on bullet types, sizing diameters and alloy, and had NO leading problems at all. That has continued right up until today. I won't begin to guess how many shots I have fired with cast bullets in a long and eventful journey but it has to exceed several hundred thousand.

I would suggest that anyone having leading problems would be well served to get a standard text of bullet casting (I still like Elmer's little book but it is "out of print", I believe). Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook should be on every caster's shelf.

Of course, this forum would be the next step, after reading a really good text, to now come with specific questions. The knowledge here is awesome and I, for one, especially appreciate that.

These comments are NOT meant for anyone specifically. Just to suggest that you cannot read too much about this fascinating sport.

Dale53

[Cntrmass]

I probably should have read more before posting.

Thanks everyone for all the help,
I am going to get a casting book and I'll try the suggestions 44 man sent.

I also have a friend here locally that shoots lots of cast boolits and he has some ideas.
Many are the same posted her so I think I'm on the right track.

Thanks again everyone!
Great forum.