If you can't decide between 44M and 45C

[tek4260]

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=321&magid=24


Excellent article. I have seen it in the past and read it on another site today, so I thought I'd link it here for others to enjoy as well.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

thanks i did enjoy it

[Lonerider]

Thanks for posting it, ....it was a good read. I like Ruger's .45 Bisleys.

Lonerider

[gray wolf]

I liked it a lot, thank you for posting.

[45r]

It's a good article but what he says about the 454 can be misleading.My model 83 454 can shoot 150 to 200 fps faster than 5 shot rugers SA's.I've got up to 1700 plus with 315GC boolits with lil gun and 1650 plus with 296.Accuracy is inch and a half at 50 yards.Might be better but the recoil is so hard it stings the heck out of my hands and loosens the frames screws after a while.The 83 is still tight but screws need to be checked if you shoot a lot of heavy loads.I shoot midloads for practice and save the hand hurters for hunting.I love the 45 colt also and shoot the 315GC boolits with 296 in my ruger redhawk and it will work very well but won't shoot as fast as the 454.

[44man]

It's a good article but what he says about the 454 can be misleading.My model 83 454 can shoot 150 to 200 fps faster than 5 shot rugers SA's.I've got up to 1700 plus with 315GC boolits with lil gun and 1650 plus with 296.Accuracy is inch and a half at 50 yards.Might be better but the recoil is so hard it stings the heck out of my hands and loosens the frames screws after a while.The 83 is still tight but screws need to be checked if you shoot a lot of heavy loads.I shoot midloads for practice and save the hand hurters for hunting.I love the 45 colt also and shoot the 315GC boolits with 296 in my ruger redhawk and it will work very well but won't shoot as fast as the 454.
Not the point at all. I agree with Ross. That velocity is not needed and can be detrimental on game. What you are shooting is better at 200 yards on even deer and the boolit can be too light and lose penetration on huge animals. Velocity like that is just not good too many times.
I can tell you for a fact that your boolit will work better in the field at 1350 fps. Larger animals use the same velocity but much heavier boolits.
Velocity and muzzle energy from a revolver does not kill, boolit work does, penetration does. Put the energy that a revolver boolit has to work in the proper place and you need no more.
I feel your .45 RH has more stunning effect on deer then the .454 has. I bet it has more penetration too. You have created a .454 hole punch unless boolits are soft and slow down in the animal. Not too good in a cape buf. Not good on huge bone, not good on skull shots at charging animals.
You put your velocity thoughts squarely in boolit choice problems.
Go read Ross several more times, read what I have said.
Velocity is not the savior you imagine. It takes many kills to make your claims.

[subsonic]

Ross has definitely influenced me. I have a bunch oc his articles loaded on my iphone as pdfs. Always something to read in a waiting room now!

Wish he was writing a lot still. The last stuff i saw of his was the gunsamerica blog.

[subsonic]

Oh, and 45 vs 44. Both do plenty for most people, but the .45 can do more. Most people dont need the extra killing power imho, because most people hunt whitetails or similar game that the 44 has no problem with and the 44 s are generally more accurate due to better dimensions.

[subsonic]

But i just cast up about 300 300gr wfngc for my 45 Bisley 5.5" havent needed any 44s in awhile...

[45r]

I wonder why people spend a lot of money on hard kicking 45-70 hardcast boolit ammo from Garret and Buffalo Bore.They're getting a lot of recoil.I like Ross also,he's wrote some great articles and is a great shooter.I really like his revolver in that article.I like anything 45.

[Lloyd Smale]

no doubt the 454 and 5 shot 45s are a bit more powerful. I agree with 44man that a better use for them is shooting an even heavier bullet to 1300-1400 then it is to shoot 300s to 1600. As to the std 45 colt ruger level loads compared to a 44 mag. the 45 colt may edge it out on paper but ive shot enough game with both to know theres not spit differnce in effect on live tissue. Ive never made qualms about my prefernce for the 44mag. It is just an easier round to work with. Its easier to get accuracy with. theres not as big of a swing in manufactures tolarances as there is with the 45 and theres just more loading components available. You also have the option of using 44 specials but i never do so it really doesnt matter. the two biggest advantages are the slightly smaller case does better with reduced charges and a 250 grain 44 bullet is usually longer then a 250 grain 45 bullet. It doesnt seem like much but it seems to make 44s shoot much better and the longer smaller diameter bullet penetrates better at the same speed. The accuracy thing kind of starts to even out when you get to 300 grain and heavier bullets but theres still a slight edge to the 44 mags accuracy. At least in the many guns of each caliber ive owned and shot. One other thing for a traveling handgun hunter is that if you run out of ammo or loose it theres over the shelf 44 mags that are capable of taking big game and very few 45 colt loads that are. the 45 colt like the 41 mag have some kind of a cult status and youll get your throat jumped down if you bad mouth them. Me i dont buy into cult guns anymore. I went through a 45 colt stage and a 41 mag stage but just kept comming back to the 44mag. Why? Becuase it just works and i could give a rats ### if someone thinks im cool because i use a 45.

[44man]

Lloyd is correct. I shoot both and the gun must be accurate with the boolits I hunt with.
That means an accuracy difference between the two if both are shot at the same velocity with the same weight boolits. A 330 in the 44 does 1316 fps from my 10" SBH while a 335 gr from the .45 only does 1160 fps from my 7-1/2" Vaquero. Those are the accuracy points, not as fast as they can go! Accuracy FIRST always.
Moot point really since both kill deer but the .44 seems to put them down faster with the same hardness boolit, not much but it can be seen. Blood trails are good with both.
The Ruger .45 has a 1 in 16" twist which is the best for the .45.
The .44 is 1 in 20", also good.
Now put a five shot cylinder on the .45 and jack the same boolit up in velocity, what do you have? Since I have taken the Vaquero to that point, I found patterns not groups. Another moot point since a buffalo at 10 yards is a large target and the boolit at just over 1300 fps would be a good killer. But I shoot deer and have dumped them at 100 yards with the Vaquero. Very, very small target over open sights.
Look at the .454. Only the BFR has a 1 in 16" twist. The Freedom and Ruger both have 1 in 24". These two perform with accuracy better with lighter boolits and there is no way to get around it. Even the BFR is better with a lighter boolit but there is more latitude.
Taking the BFR .454 to a higher velocity with the same 335 gr I use in the .45 means it is doing what the .45 does, groups open. Dropping to maybe 300 or even 290 gr will shoot better.
The Freedom and Ruger .454 both need shot very, very fast with a 335 gr, extreme high pressures, tough on boolits and brass. Both of these would do better with 250 gr boolits, still shot fast.
Yeah, I know, twist is another moot point with most and the .454 should shoot 250 to almost 400 gr boolits with accuracy and claims are made. Doesn't work quite that way!
Now look at BFR's. The .44 in the Desert Eagle is 1 in 18", the BFR is 1 in 16".
The .454 is 1 in 16", the .460 is 1 in 20", the 45-70 and .450 are 1 in 14", the .475 is 1 in 15" and the .500's are 1 in 15".
Just maybe why they exhibit such extreme accuracy with such a wide range of boolits.
Fellas can chew it over and argue but the simple fact is that boolits need to be stabilized.

[subsonic]

Anybody have experience with the John Ross 500 and it's VERY fast twist vs accuracy with cast boolits? I have fired one, but not with cast and definitely not under testing conditions.

[44man]

Anybody have experience with the John Ross 500 and it's VERY fast twist vs accuracy with cast boolits? I have fired one, but not with cast and definitely not under testing conditions.
Do you know what the twist is?

[44man]

I found it, 1 in 10" for extreme heavy boolits shot at a decent velocity, not screamers.
I have not found a mastodon for a few years but it would roll over semi's. :mrgreen:

[subsonic]

When I shot it, I shot it with the Hornady 350gr @ 1700fps. Maybe it was because it was only 5 shots (one of which smashed a boulder the size of a microwave @ 90yds), or maybe it was because it was 20deg outside, but I didn't think it kicked too bad. Different, but not bad. Recoil just seemed LOOOOONGER. Gun kept recoiling long past when a normal gun would be done moving toward your face.

[BeeMan]

Yes, that's a good article. I bought that issue for the article and the pages were dog-eared by the time I succumbed to the call of the 45.

[44man]

When I shot it, I shot it with the Hornady 350gr @ 1700fps. Maybe it was because it was only 5 shots (one of which smashed a boulder the size of a microwave @ 90yds), or maybe it was because it was 20deg outside, but I didn't think it kicked too bad. Different, but not bad. Recoil just seemed LOOOOONGER. Gun kept recoiling long past when a normal gun would be done moving toward your face.
Yep, the real heavy boolits have less "snap" in the hand but are in the barrel longer. 350 is not real heavy and as they go up, the instant smack to the hand is less.
You can't appreciate the big boys until something is hit. We tried to catch a 420 gr .475 boolit in 14, gallon water jugs--fat chance! [smilie=1: It blew 4 sky high, split 2 more and came out the last jug. I blew a jug up at 100, impressive. Now the .50's bring in a whole new "smash", yet meat damage in deer is not bad at all. Insides are ruined and shock is horrendous but there is just a decent hole without the whole animal bloodshot.
We tried some 405 gr boolits in the .44 that were highly touted. They gained nothing in penetration and were actually behind my 330 gr. They are such a mismatch to twist they were turning sideways at 50 yards. They can't be shot fast enough.
Boolit to twist to velocity, nothing in between.

[white eagle]

no choice for me its hands down
I own both