Cast boolit loads for Gew. 88s?

[Abert Rim]

Got three junkers from CFS and am having a ball tearing them down and cleaning them up. If I get one shootable, is there a particular mold that makes sense for the .321 bore? What dies do you use to size necks and crimp?

[Buckshot]

..............Slug it first, but if it's anything short of .323" just use that. Most any cast load shown for the 8x57 will be fine.

................Buckshot

[Ricochet]

I'm using the Group Buy 8mm boolit, weighing 185 grains checked and lubed, sized .323" over 3.4cc (a hair under 45 grains) of 7383 with a magnum primer. Runs about 2225 FPS from my G88, and the pressure is very mild.

As in many other cases, the throat size is more important than the bore dimensions. If a .323" boolit will freely chamber, it'll shoot fine. That was the point of the "S" modification, which involved increasing the chamber neck and throat size, not the bore, to allow shooting the larger diameter jacketed bullets safely (by their standards.)

[d.thomson]

I would make sure that the rifle is not an older rif with a .318 bore size take it to a smith or slug the barrle your self. I think they started making the .323 after the fist world war. so if the gun is older than 1918 I would be careful, I'm shure you like your peepers in your head not in a glass beside the bed. Just a thought Dave T.[smilie=1:By the way I use LEE dies cheap and good acuracy.

[Ricochet]

The Gewehr 88 was introduced with a .318" groove diameter bore and a .318" diameter bullet. Initially there were problems with barrels splitting, which likely had something at least to do with the early production Ballistite in use. One of the fixes implemented was to increase the groove diameter to .321" in January 1890. When the Germans introduced the .323" spitzgeschoss in 1903, they retrofitted Gew. 98 and Gew. 88 rifles by opening up the chamber neck and throat of the bore to accommodate the larger bullets. The bores were not changed. You can be sure that the Germans did this after extensive testing had established to their satisfaction that it worked.

Bullets, even jacketed ones, are pretty malleable. Consider how much deformation is already occurring from the lands of the rifling engraving into them. Typical bore diameters of 7.9mm barrels are .311-.312", even with the .323" groove ones. The bore diameter wasn't changed, the grooves were deepened.

When a bullet has some "freebore" to accelerate through before encountering the rfiling and a gradually tapered leade, increasing its diameter by a few thousandths of an inch will increase the pressure a lot less than you might think. If the bullet fits the throat easily, you're good to go. Always start with loads below anticipated maximum levels and work up for safety.

[KCSO]

I just shoot 323-324's in mine and have had no problems. My bore runs 322. I have had exceptional luck with the Lee bullet for the M95 straight pull sized down to 323. With 12.5 of Red Dot this one shot into 1 3/4" at 100 yards from my Kar88. This was with a worn bore. Being stupid I decided that a better bore would shoot even better so I sold the K and haven't found a good one since then. The K I had was purchased from Sears by a deer hunter in 1920's and he shot it with factory jacketed slugs till he sold it to me in 1980's. I got the gun 6 clips and 2 boxes of Remington 8MM ammo and a military and a factory gold bead sight for $75 and the old guy laughed that I was fool enough to spend that kind of money as he gave Sears $12 for it. I sold the gun in 2000 for $400 and would spend $800 to get it back. MOst of the 88 I have seen were VERY closely headspaced and the cases needed almost no resizing and for the most part the bolts interchanged with no headspace problems. My current 88 is an 88/15 and shoots the Lee bullet into about 3-4" at 100 yards, but that is with the barley corn sight and my poor eyes.

[Ricochet]

That's about what mine will do with the Lee boolit or the similar group buy one over a case full of 7383.

[jonk]

I use 16 gr of 2400 or 11 gr of Red Dot and a .319" swaged Lee 185 gr bullet. No issues out of my .318 bore; same load and bullet in my .321 but unsized.

[newfoundlander]

The narrow tapered lands of my original Gew/Kar88s love the currently available Lyman Loverin with all of the powders I've tried so far. The Lyman Loverin also feeds smoothly from those 88's that require an en bloc clip no matter how far out I seat the bullet. My carbine and rifles are a mismash of original and "S" models and have bores that range from .319-325(!). I feed the lot with .323 quenched WW's or lino with no problems whatsoever.

[dave s]

The Gewehr 88 was introduced with a .318" groove diameter bore and a .318" diameter bullet. Initially there were problems with barrels splitting, which likely had something at least to do with the early production Ballistite in use. One of the fixes implemented was to increase the groove diameter to .321" in January 1890. When the Germans introduced the .323" spitzgeschoss in 1903, they retrofitted Gew. 98 and Gew. 88 rifles by opening up the chamber neck and throat of the bore to accommodate the larger bullets. The bores were not changed. You can be sure that the Germans did this after extensive testing had established to their satisfaction that it worked.

Bullets, even jacketed ones, are pretty malleable. Consider how much deformation is already occurring from the lands of the rifling engraving into them. Typical bore diameters of 7.9mm barrels are .311-.312", even with the .323" groove ones. The bore diameter wasn't changed, the grooves were deepened.

When a bullet has some "freebore" to accelerate through before encountering the rfiling and a gradually tapered leade, increasing its diameter by a few thousandths of an inch will increase the pressure a lot less than you might think. If the bullet fits the throat easily, you're good to go. Always start with loads below anticipated maximum levels and work up for safety.

This information is not correct. I know 3 guys that did 10 years of work looking at over 200 rifles, old German papers and data . They published a nice article on their findings in Gunlist about a year ago. The Germans NEVER used a .318 groove barrel in their MILITARY rifles. Only the P-88 ammo had a .3188 dia bullet. The first bore spec was .314 - .3215 , in mid 1890 they deepened the grooves by making the lands taller [ bore smaller to .311 ] so the bore was now .311 - .3215 . In late 1896 they went to a .311 - .323+ [ up to .325 ] groove . Any earlier rifle that was rebarreled after 1896 got the .311- .323 barrel . GEW-98s, all being made after 1896 [1898 ] NEVER had a barrel smaller than .311 - .323 . The throat [ leade ] was NOT lenghtened on earlier barrels since it was already 3 times longer for the long P-88 round nose bullet than needed for the short 154 grain spitzer bullet. Only the neck of the chamber was checked [ and reamed out if needed ] for the .3215 dia 154 grain spitzer . The 154 spitzer was a .3215 dia bullet with a small .323 dia driving band . It was made .3215 for the older barrels. Some South American G-88's will be found with Czech made barrels on them, they are .306 - .3165 to .309 - .318 . If you look at any rifles with original barrels, or any original ammo, you will find the dates and specs match this information. The "S" stamp is NOT a bore spec , and can be missleading as the .318 Czech barreled rifles still have it on them .

[Ricochet]

Have you got a link to their article? I'd like to read it. What I typed above was a summary of what I've read by the learned folks on Gunboards and Parallax Bill's board, mainly.

[dave s]

I will look up the issue of Gunlist it was in. A couple of the authors do visit Gunboards now and then. There is just so much bad information floating around about G-88's that will not go away, even though it does not match ANY real rifles.

[dave s]

Some of the things that are just repeated about G-88's as fact do not even make sense if you look at a rifle or ammunition. Here are a few examples: The notch cut in the top of the receiver on the 88/05's is to clear the "longer spitzer round ". The "S" spitzer round is much shorter that the original P-88 round nose, all you have to do is just look at the two side by side. In truth the notch is cut so the older P-88 ammo CAN still be used on stripper clips if needed. If you look at a rifle with the notch when you load it with a stripper with P-88 ammo you will see that the notch is a tapered guide that fits the round nose of the bullet. "S" ammo will clear with out the notch. EVERY European military rifle of that time used grooves that are larger than the bullet used, as did the Germans. All the "S" stamp means is that the rifle was "cleared" for use with the "S" ammo, most with not modifications at all. The Throats [ leade] on all rifles, "S" or not , are the same. But on the other hand the Czech barrels have a short throat, even original German P-88 ammo will not chamber in some. The Czechs made their own ammo [ just for their barrels ], it has a much shorter overall lenght than the German ammo. That , plus where in Gotz's book where he mis=translates NECK to throat is where the lenghtened throat myth comes from. The main thing is G-88's will be found with FOUR main bore sizes [ land / groove ] , and barrels made by three different countries. And that is JUST military barrels, there are also some with civilian barrels ! So you should always slug your bore to know what YOU should use in your rifle. I can tell you what the bore size is by just reading the markings on the rifle, all the information is there. But the regular guy should still slug their barrel to know for sure.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, slugging your own bore and throat is definitely the thing to do.

But with cast bullets, as long as it'll chamber easily, shooting .323" bullets certainly isn't going to hurt anything with an otherwise reasonable load.

[SwedeNelson]

Have had very good luck with a SAECO 081 Boolit
189 Gr. Gas Checked sized to.321 for my .318 bore
with 16 to 18 Gr. of A2400

I enjoy this on going debate about bore size.
It comes up often. The best advise is like Buckshot said ...........Slug it first.

Swede Nelson

[dave s]

It is not really a debate, it is some people passing on bad information without checking it with real rifles or ammo. The correct information is all out there and in the rifles.

[Ricochet]

Now, Dave, that's unfair. I was passing along what I believed (and still may believe) was accurate information, as it came from people who've had a great deal of experience with G88s. I don't have access to many of these rifles, or time to do research. Neither have you, apparently. You say you know 3 guys who've done this. Fine. Like I said, I'm interested in reading their article. If they've got a good case for what they say, I'm glad to learn from it.

In the gun collecting field there are numerous debates that go on over years with different researchers saying different things. Rarely is there a final definitive answer.

Measuring bores of well used rifles over a century old is likely to be biased toward larger diameters from shooting and cleaning wear. If they have original documents on the specifications, that tells more about what the bore and groove diameters were supposed to be, but there were doubtless tolerances in production and it's unlikely that every one was a particular exact diameter like .3215". Modern production rifles aren't that precise. Many original documents related to production, inspection and modification of these rifles have surely been lost in the two big wars since they were made, never mind the later rebuilding in Turkey and South America.

I'm not an expert on G88s. I'm not debating you. I do have a bit of a "Show Me" attitude, because you've just popped up out of nowhere on a seeming "mission from God" to correct the "bad information" that I've passed on in good faith from people I do believe to be knowledgeable on these rifles. I know nothing about you or your three friends. Your "debate" would best be held on the milsurp discussion boards with others more knowledgeable than I.

http://milsurpshooter.net/
http://forums.gunboards.com/
http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum?

These are the main ones I know. Also, I refer here for information on the bore diameter, groove depth and date of change:
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/commission88.html

The original question of this thread has been well answered already.

[dave s]

I was not "picking" on you personally, I was talking about alot of people ,who as a whole just PASS on information that to them is only hearsay. I have over 50 G-88 rifles and carbines. When every rifle that should have a certain bore size for it's year or marking, does have it, wear in not a factor. Plus it is really hard to wear out the grooves, even harder when the bullets they used did not ride the grooves. On top of that the Germans did stamp bore [ land ] size on rifles when they were inspected before the 05 update. If the lands still match that stamp, the groove will also still be the same it was then. The Germans had a +/- for the specs, all rifles were within this spec, and the specs do not overlap from one bore size to any of the others.The incorrect information will not go away if it keeps getting repeated. Some of the sites you posted have the incorrect information, information that they just repeated but did not check against real rifles. If you look at a large number of rifles you can see the bore size changes. I have 8 different rifles made before mid 1890, all have the .314 - .3215 bore [ +/- .0001] , I have 9 riflesmade in the later half of 1890 or early 1891, they all have .311 - .3215 bores . Unless only the pre -1890 rifles ALL had bore wear and ALL of the post 1890 rifles had no bore wear, I would say the spec are correct. On all of my many 1890 1/2 to 1896 1/2 rifles have the .311 - .3215 bore. All 12 of my post 1896 1/2 rifles have the .311 - .323+ bore. All of my early rifles with replacement barrels [ and marked as such ] have the .311 - .323+ bore. That is not hearsay, it is real rifles, and NONE of them fall out of the specs per year that I have stated. You may have meant well, but you still were passing on bad information.

[Buckshot]

...............I'd always heard and read that the "S" stamped on the action indicated that the chamberneck and throat had been reamed to accept the .323" bullet, the spitzer.

My ole Commission rifle was a Welfare item to the Turks and has had all the 'mods'. The stock is rather ratty and as per usual the elevator was missing from the ladder. Happily enough with a tiny modification a 1903 Springfield sight ladder and elevator works like a champ. The bore of the old beater slugs 'Worn' with nicely rounded lands :-)

However, with Loverin type slugs and moderate loads it actually shoot quite well. My idea one of these days (I'll probably die first) is to re-barrel it to maybe 7x57 and put it into a Mannlicher type stock with a 22" barrel. Sure be nice to find a set of double tigger for it, but if I did I'd probably choke on the cost.

My other M88 had been completely Turked, via a new barrel (no heat shroud) and a M38 type stock and sights. It's a shooting essobee and slick as snot on a glass doorknob.

...............Buckshot

[Ricochet]

OK, Dave, thanks! I'm always glad to learn something new. I'd still like to see the article if you can find it.

[jayc]

Now, Dave, that's unfair. I was passing along what I believed (and still may believe) was accurate information, as it came from people who've had a great deal of experience with G88s. I don't have access to many of these rifles, or time to do research. Neither have you, apparently. You say you know 3 guys who've done this. Fine. Like I said, I'm interested in reading their article. If they've got a good case for what they say, I'm glad to learn from it.

In the gun collecting field there are numerous debates that go on over years with different researchers saying different things. Rarely is there a final definitive answer.

Measuring bores of well used rifles over a century old is likely to be biased toward larger diameters from shooting and cleaning wear. If they have original documents on the specifications, that tells more about what the bore and groove diameters were supposed to be, but there were doubtless tolerances in production and it's unlikely that every one was a particular exact diameter like .3215". Modern production rifles aren't that precise. Many original documents related to production, inspection and modification of these rifles have surely been lost in the two big wars since they were made, never mind the later rebuilding in Turkey and South America.

I'm not an expert on G88s. I'm not debating you. I do have a bit of a "Show Me" attitude, because you've just popped up out of nowhere on a seeming "mission from God" to correct the "bad information" that I've passed on in good faith from people I do believe to be knowledgeable on these rifles. I know nothing about you or your three friends. Your "debate" would best be held on the milsurp discussion boards with others more knowledgeable than I.

http://milsurpshooter.net/
http://forums.gunboards.com/
http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum?

These are the main ones I know. Also, I refer here for information on the bore diameter, groove depth and date of change:
http://www.texastradingpost.com/m88/commission88.html

The original question of this thread has been well answered already.

Thanks for posting the four links. I have a few WW1&2 military rifles and am new to the use of a computer and internet surfing. I find these links to be quite informative. I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate the time you have spent to research the topic under discussion.

[Ricochet]

You're welcome, JayC. I think you'll definitely find those other discussion boards helpful.