New to Forum .38/200 question(s)

[Quiet.and.simple]

Ok, I'm a complete newbie when it comes to tinkering with handgun ammunition. I routinely pull my bullets for my military surplus rifles in batches of five, equally distribute the powder, and reseat the bullets, to optimize accuracy. That is the extent of my reloading experience.

I have an Enfield No.2 Mk.1 (with the spur hammer), and I would like to work up a proper .38/200 load for this gun. My questions start here:

1. Can I pull the bullet from an existing .38 S&W cartridge, dump the powder, and use a new powder loading with a cast bullet in the existing case with the existing primer?

2. Where can I purchase a cast "boolit" ( I always wanted to say that), that will correctly fit the bill for my intended purpose?

3. (Not a question) If there is a better way to do this, and if someone has already done this, please direct me there.

Thank you all in advance for any help that you might be able to provide.

Quiet and Simple

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, Q & S.

There have been a number of threads posted on this very subject, some of them fairly recently. Do a search--read their texts--and whatever questions remain we can field pretty readily.

Your Webley-Enfield has a bigger performance envelope than the typical 38 S&W cartridge/platform. They can safely/reasonably launch the 200 grain boolits they are regulated for at 700-725 FPS, while conventional 38 S&Ws like my Colt Police Positive run 150 grainers at about the same velocity.

[bhn22]

It really sounds to me like it's time for you to make a decision. Either you're going to reload, or you aren't. Sooner or later, your current course of action will backfire on you, no pun intended. When you are pulling bullets and mixing powders, you may be mixing powders from different lots and/or burning rates. I'm amazed that you haven't had issues up to this point.

[Quiet.and.simple]

It really sounds to me like it's time for you to make a decision. Either you're going to reload, or you aren't. Sooner or later, your current course of action will backfire on you, no pun intended. When you are pulling bullets and mixing powders, you may be mixing powders from different lots and/or burning rates. I'm amazed that you haven't had issues up to this point.


Whenever I've pulled bullets and re-measured the powder they were always from the same lot, and the same manufacturer. I would never do that with random surplus ammunition. I am aware that different powders have DRASTICALLY different results, so I would not mix the two of them. The gentleman who taught me to do this is a former Marine marksman who stresses safety even above good shooting form. We would aways take five rounds, pull the bulllets, weigh the powder, divide it equally between cartidges, lube the bullets, and gently reseat.

As far as making a decision, I am gathering information to make the most informed decision that I can.

My main point of curiosity is if I can load a cast 200 grain bullet (when I find some) into brass that would basically be pre-primed. If I pulled the bullet from a NEW .38 S&W cartride, threw away the powder (let's just say that I did that for arguments sake), then loaded a new measure of a different powder, and seated the bullet on top of it..........then would that be an acceptable way of making a new .38/200 round?

I did search before I posted my questions, but I could not find the specific answers that I was seeking. It is VERY possible that I overlooked an earlier thread, and if someone can direct me to a thread that answers my questions, I will be very thankful. Again, I appreciate all the help that is offered.

[happy7]

Quiet,

To answer your question. There is no reason you cannot pull the bullet and dump the old powder and dump an appropriate charge of powder of a type appropriate for the cartridge and reseat an appropriate bullet. Notice my use of the word appropriate. You can look up loading information online at the powder manufacturer sites, and buying a reloading handbook would really be a good idea. I recomend the Lyman book.

I sell the bullets you are looking for (www.mattsbullets.com (http://www.mattsbullets.com)) and there is also a group buy running right now for an NOE mold for this bullet should you be interested in getting started with casting your own.

Possibly the reason you are having trouble finding the information you are looking for is that it doesn't seem all that logical. To me it seems a lot easier and more fun to just shoot the factory 38 S&W ammo in your gun, have a blast and then use the empty cases to reload the ammo you want. Why waste that ammo you paid good money for?

I am a little unclear what equipment you have. You do need to be able to accurately measur e the powder and have the basic equipment. Lee makes entry level presses and kits that don't cost much more than two boxes of factory 38 S&W ammo and you would save money in short order.

[BCall]

I would imagine it would be possible. I know guys have pulled bullets on military surplus rifle ammo, tossed the powder, and then charged with an appropriate powder charge and seated a new boolit. I don't see how this would be any different.

But why? I can see why with milsurp ammo, especially if it isn't going to be shot and cast boolits are wanted, but with 38 S&W ammo? You will need a seating die of some kind to seat and crimp the boolit, so a die set is needed. Then a press is needed for the dies. Then you could buy some brass direct from Starline and some fresh primers and start from scratch. Most all presses have a way to seat primers. You could buy a Lee hand press and dies for under $75, then add some Starline brass, primers and powder and you ready to go except boolits. There are a few vendors out there who sell boolits, so it can be done. I would think it would be cheaper and easier in the long run.

Of course, if you already have some 38 S&W ammo, just shoot it up and reload. No need to waste it, and then there is no need to buy brass. JMO, Billy

[Quiet.and.simple]

Gentleman, thank you both for the excellent information. I see what you mean about what I'm proposing to do not being so logical. I'll tell you where my frame of mind is. The gun is an Enfield No.2 Mk. 1 (SA/DA with the spur hammer) and I want to work up something like the original .38/200 load the British were using during WWII, partly for home defense, and partly just as something neat to play with.

I have never seated a primer in my life, and I'll admit it intimidates me alittle bit. I will be purchasing the most compact reloading setup that I can find, and all suggestions on that front are welcome. I'm still in college and share a tiny apartment with my wife. I thought that perhaps with a Lee handloader (if they're terrible, please let me know) I could pull bullets, and weigh powder with an accurate digital scale. I am always open to the advice of people more experienced than myself, as I prefer to do as little pounding of my head against a wall as possible.

[BCall]

Try here, Ben has a nice portable setup going, with pics of what he's done-
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=123331


The Lee Loaders are OK, they can reload decent ammo if you pay attention to detail. But you may have trouble finding one in 38 S&W, as they no longer make them. I've have a bunch of Lee loaders, and have sold a bunch more, but I've only actually seen one. You can't use a 38 Special one, it has to be 38 S&W. Plus, if seating primers makes you nervous, with a Lee Loader you hammer them in. With a ram prime unit on a portable press, they are simply pressed in. As long as there is no powder, a single primer isn't much danger. I've popped one or 2 putting them in with a Lee loader, the noise is loud, but it didn't hurt anything. Just put another one in and try again. Best idea is to get a good reloading manual and start there. Lee and Lyman are IMO the best for beginners. HTH

[9.3X62AL]

OK--load data first. I use 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco under the NEI #169A boolit, which is a copy of the British service load's boolit weighing 202 grains as-cast of 92/6/2 alloy. At 25 yards, they shoot right to the sights in both my Webley-Enfield DAO and in my S&W Lend-Lease M&P K-frame.

Boolits for the 38/200 are usually fatter than 38 Specials or even Colt 38 S&Ws. Throats in my 2 38/200 revolvers mic at .362"-.363", while the Colt PP runs right at .359". Most of the 38 S&W Terriers I've checked are .360"-.361" in their throats. For best results, boolit diameter should match throat specs or perhaps exceed them by .001-.002".

USE 38 S&W BRASS--preferably Starline. Sized diameter runs .386"-.387", as opposed to 38 Special/357 Mag diameters of .379". The two calibers are in no way similar in critical diameters.

Seating primers is child's play with real reloading gear. Total non-issue.

If you are conversant on how and why reloading dies do what they do, please advise. I don't want to type extensively and be way over your head. Sizing die, expander dies and their spuds, seating dies and their features/quirks need to be known before plunking money down on tooling. An RCBS Reloading Manual does a GREAT job of explaining these things in plain language.

[Quiet.and.simple]

I have used forums for years, but this is the first time that I have ever received this much help, on ANY forum, EVER. I sincerely want to thank all of you.

I had not realized that detonating a primer only made a loud noise. I honestly thought that one could injure oneself if it went off. I don't know why, now that I think about it, but I always had.

Alright, I'm sold, I'm going to start putting together a basic reloading kit, and do this from square one.

[Quiet.and.simple]

OK--load data first. I use 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco under the NEI #169A boolit, which is a copy of the British service load's boolit weighing 202 grains as-cast of 92/6/2 alloy. At 25 yards, they shoot right to the sights in both my Webley-Enfield DAO and in my S&W Lend-Lease M&P K-frame.

Boolits for the 38/200 are usually fatter than 38 Specials or even Colt 38 S&Ws. Throats in my 2 38/200 revolvers mic at .362"-.363", while the Colt PP runs right at .359". Most of the 38 S&W Terriers I've checked are .360"-.361" in their throats. For best results, boolit diameter should match throat specs or perhaps exceed them by .001-.002".

USE 38 S&W BRASS--preferably Starline. Sized diameter runs .386"-.387", as opposed to 38 Special/357 Mag diameters of .379". The two calibers are in no way similar in critical diameters.

Seating primers is child's play with real reloading gear. Total non-issue.

If you are conversant on how and why reloading dies do what they do, please advise. I don't want to type extensively and be way over your head. Sizing die, expander dies and their spuds, seating dies and their features/quirks need to be known before plunking money down on tooling. An RCBS Reloading Manual does a GREAT job of explaining these things in plain language.

I am not conversant in why reloading dies do what they do, but I will buy an RCBS Reloading Manual, and catch myself up on it. This is cool, it's like I'm taking Reloading 101, which I'm certain will be much more interesting that Intro to General Psych 101.

I found a pdf version of the RCBS manual on RCBS.com. You are correct, it explains what the different dies do, and why.

I found a LEE .38 S&W/ Colt NP 3 Die Carbide PistolSet#90569 for sale. Are these the dies that I need?

Ok, I think that I am beginning to understand just a teensy bit about this stuff. Am I correct in assuming that these dies will fit in the LEE Hand Press? I looked on the LEE site and it doesn't specify if the hand tool uses a different type of die than the Turret. I know that the hand press is basically the cave man way of doing this, but people are saying that it works. Again, I am open to suggestions.

Also, sir, what primers do you use for the load that you listed? I plan on using the Unique powder, and will be using the 200 gr LRN bullets listed on Matt's Bullets, sized for .361. I will slug the barrel of the revolver with an egg sinker on Sunday (when I pick it up from my father's safe.) and will report what I find.

[badbob454]

welcome to the forum .... enjoy ,..... i have

[Multigunner]

I used a Lyman 310 nutcracker tool for some years to load both .38 special and 7.92 Mauser.
When I cut back on shooting cenerfire for some time I sold the 310 tool, and later regreted it.

The 310 tool has probably the best and most precise primer seating function of any reloading outfit. For many years benchrest shooters prefered to seat primers using the 310 tool no matter what other tools they used for the rest of their cartridge case preparations and bullet seating.

When I started shooting center fire revolvers again I found no convenient local source for reloading tools. I still had plenty of Bullseye and some .38 bullets, and soon found a source of cheap sized and lubed cast semi wadcutters.
I remembered reading of a method used by resistence fighters to reload scavenged pistol cartridge cases when no tools were available.
I drilled a 3/8" hole in a 3/4" thick steel slab, and using silicon carbide papper on a dowel polished the hole till it was just right for resizing a fired .38 case. A taper at the opening and polished mirror bright inside.
I could tap a case into this hole using a rawhide mallet, then using a pin punch inserted in the flash hole I tapped the case out from the other side.
I at first seated primers by simply setting the case head on the upturned primer , centering the primer in the cup opening ,and placing a short piece of brass tubing in the case tapping the case down onto the primer till flush. That worked but its best if the primer be seated a hair below the level of the cas head, so I later used a dowel inside the case to steady it, and placing a short length of steel rod in the chuck of my drill press used the handle of the press to push the primers home.
The flat nosed semi wadcutters were seated the same way, using a bolt head filed smooth to push the bullet home. The depth limiter of the drill advance served to insure even seating depth.

Thats a simple, crude, but effective method of reloading without specialised tools. I've used the same method to reload .32 S&W and neck size and reload .303 and 7.62X54R cases.

Building .38/200 loads for a British pistol is a good idea, since unless the front sight has been filed down regular .38 S&W rounds would hit far below the point of aim, due to reduced recoil and muzzle rise of the lighter bullets.

[Quiet.and.simple]

I'm impressed with your level of persistence. I will take your advice about the Lyman tool into account and try to locate one. As for making up a .38/200 load for my English pistol, I agree with you. I refuse to have "safe queens", pure collectors items, or any other such rubbish in my collection. If I own it, I'm going to use it, and if I'm going to use it, I'm going to at least attempt to do it correctly. Everything that I've read states that the commercially available loads will shoot well below point of aim, and I demand accuracy from my guns. I'm certainly not modifying the front sight on the gun to make up for the ammo.

[Bret4207]

Q&S, welcome. Rather than the Lee hand press I would suggest you consider Lees entry level "C" press, it's the next to last item on this page- https://factorysales.com/html/xcart/catalog/rlpress1.html just above the hand press. Same price as the hand press. You will find you'll want to be able to use both hands when you load. You can secure the pres to a sturdy board and c clamp it to a table or bench if space is an issue. Yes, the 90569 dies are correct for the 38S+W. Starline makes the best brass but Rem or Win is good too. I'd use some of Matts boolits to start with.

This is a simple, safe and interesting hobby. Just don;t expect to save a lot of money unless you are far, far more disciplined then the rest of us!

[Quiet.and.simple]

Thank you for the recommendation on the loader. That is also the best price that I've found on a loader, yet. I'm planning on using Matt's Bullets. I looked on Google for hours for the correct bullet size, and his are the closest that I've seen to the original British round. I haven't seen another bullet that's even close.

Oh, I know that the Lyman 310 tool comes in both the Large and Small sizes. Do the dies work interchangeably in them, or if I went that route, would I absolutely need to buy the small size?

[BCall]

I had not realized that detonating a primer only made a loud noise. I honestly thought that one could injure oneself if it went off. I don't know why, now that I think about it, but I always had.


Just to be clear though, a SINGLE primer detonating poses little risk, unless you were to be pointing at you eyes at the time, but if a string of primers were to go off, such as in a tube or primer tray, the results may be different. They still needed to be treated with respect, especially when they are en masse, such as in a tube. I still remember being a stupid young boy and stealing a few from my dads reloading cabinet and setting tham off with a hammer on the back patio when he wasn't home. Something I wouldn't reccommend, but pretty much harmless one at a time.

The 310 tools are nice, you would need a small set for a 38 S&W, and you would still need to find dies. Something Lyman no longer makes for the 38 S&W. Of course, if you want to go that route, you could try here-
http://www.cnyauctions.com/the310shop.htm

Or you'll have to hunt some up in the used market. Lastly, if you decide to go with the Lee press and dies, I would reccommend a set of 9mm makarov dies instead of the 38 S&W dies from Lee. I have a set of each, but the Makarov dies work better for using the .360+ boolits in a 38 S&W. The regular dies Lee has work much better for .358 boolits and tend to squeeze the brass too much for the larger ones. I got the tip from others here on this forum, and it has worked better in my experience.

[Quiet.and.simple]

Thank you for the Makarov die recommendation. The link that the gentleman provided to the LEE factory sales site has decided it for me. I haven't found any other prices on presses that even come close to what theirs are. The Lyman tools look wonderful to use, but not something that I'm going to be picking up any time soon.

Does anyone have a recommendation for the best place to pick up Unique powder and Small Pistol primers? Grafs & Sons' reference chart told me that .38 s&w uses Small Pistol primers. If that is not correct, or if anyone has anything to add on that note, I will take it down.

[happy7]

I also use makarov dies. The Lee 38 S&W dies are designed for use with .358 bullets.

Powder and primers in small quantities are best purchased from a big store like Sportsmans Warehouse or Gander Mountain. Mail ordering incurs a hazmat fee which is usually $20.

[Bret4207]

My bad on the dies, I keep forgetting the Mak dies work better. Of course I have the 38S+W dies!

[9.3X62AL]

Dittoes on the 9mm Makarov dies working well for the 38/200. And to hitting up a local sports store for the powder and primers.

I've used either Winchester or CCI small pistol primers for all of my 38/200 loading. No need for magnum primers here. Winchester primers are designated as "WSP" on their packaging, CCI primers as "CCI 500".

I concur on the Lee C-press as being a much better application of cash to your reloading set-up. Lyman 310 dies require dies that are specific to that tool, while any maker's 7/8" x 14 die sets will work well in the C-press.

[Quiet.and.simple]

Looks like I'm set. Now to begin acquiring the various pieces and parts. If anyone is interested, I'll post pics of the Enfield after I pick it up tomorrow. Not only do I need to load ammo for it, but I also have to replace the hammer nose on it. Luckily I was able to find one that I can pull off of a complete hammer assembly. If anyone needs a hammer nose, check out Apex gun parts. They have the only hammer noses that I've been able to find.

I will definitely also buy the powder and primers from a big sporting goods store. At this moment the only one close to me is a Bass Pro Shops, but strangely enough I'm about to relocate to Vancouver, WA on Aug. 1st. The wife and I are going to drive from northern FL to Vancouver, WA, all this next week. If anyone is up in that neck of the woods we'll have to go shooting, sometime.

[jrayborn]

"If anyone is interested, I'll post pics of the Enfield after I pick it up tomorrow"

Pics are never an option, they are a requirement :)

I'm in much the same position, done a bit more casting/loading than it seems you have, but I'm waiting on boolits too. And from what I have experianced so far, the wait should be more than worth it!

Can't wait to shoot my Webley!

[Quiet.and.simple]

Webleys are nice guns. I've always wanted one of the Welbey Mk VI's. I'm still waiting for my dad to bring it over, so no pics yet. He told me that there's a possibility that one of my younger siblings might have "liberated" it. :violin:

I hadn't thought about the old gun in years until I began gathering up my guns from various relatives (big family, lots of hunters). I'll get it back, but if he can't get it today or tomorrow I'll have to pay an FFL to receive my own gun, once I'm out there. Kinda burns my rear, but what can you do? :-|

I have a couple of old guns in obsolete calibres. .38/200 (when it shows up), 7.62 Nagant, .375 Winchester, so I really needed to get into reloading, anyway.

The thing that I would hate the most is wasting the time of all of these people who were kind enough to dig up information and answer my questions.

Of course, now I can start pestering people about the best "hottest" defensive load for a Nagant 1895 revolver. [smilie=w:

[LouisianaMan]

Q&S,
Welcome to the forum, and to the world of the .38-200 aka .38 S&W and aka a few other names:-)

Once you're settled in after the move, give me a holler at danamangham@hotmail.com and I'll dig up some threads & links for you on loads I've used in this caliber, in a military surplus Enfield; modern S&W solid-frame revolvers (32-1, 33, and 33-1); a WWII Victory Model S&W; and a Colt Royal Hong Kong Police revolver.

I've had success using the Lee .38 S&W dies, but readily admit that my definition of "success" may be different than the others who have posted here, all of whom probably shoot better than I do. I can't hold very tight groups anyway, so I can't begin to tell where my shaky hand & 20/30 vision (on a good day) leave off, and where loads & bullet sizes pick up. I've slugged several of my revolvers, but have never pulled a bullet and miked it after I loaded it. Perhaps my dies swaged it down, but I get very functional self-defense type accuracy and reliability, even if the 25-or 50-yard groups might prove disappointing to some.

Since my modern S&W's mike at .359 groove diameter and the Colt was about .355-.356, I found that .360-.362 bullets worked great in everything but the Colts, which wouldn't chamber the cartridges at all. For them, I sized the bullets to .358 and everything worked fine in them and my S&W's. The .360+ bullets are the bullet of choice in my Enfield and I was surprised how accurately I could shoot with its double-action only mechanism. It gobbles up 200g bullets at 600-650 fps, as that's what it was designed for!

I'm a lifetime shooter, but have reloaded only about 10 years. My Lyman manual did a great job laying out what I needed to know, and Lee 2nd Edition and Speer 13 have come in very handy, too. I've only been casting a couple of years, and much of my casting effort has been for the .38-200. It's addictive, and we will try to get you addicted to casting after we hook you on reloading :-)

[Quiet.and.simple]

ENFIELD IN HAND! I'm posting pics below:

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/Quietandsimple/Enfield3.jpg

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/Quietandsimple/Enfield2.jpg

http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz176/Quietandsimple/Enfield1.jpg

[Quiet.and.simple]

Finish is rough, but smooth. The finish is GONE, but the bore is good. The rifling is sharp.

[Shooter6br]

Try site Cast Pics looked under articles 38 Special data listed

[Multigunner]

Finish is rough, but smooth. The finish is GONE, but the bore is good. The rifling is sharp.

Just the way I like 'em, pre disastered. No worry about gettng a scratch on it.

So long as the pistol is in good mechanical condition I don't care that much about appearances. Best .38 snubbie I ever had was a Model 37 airweight that had spent decades on the bottom of a lake buried in mud. Long enough that the nickel finish formed a crust that could be scraped away with a fingernail.
The grips rotted away and mainspring and guide rusted away as well.
The alloy parts, including early alloy cylinder were still okay , the steel barrel had been heavily chromed rather than nickeled and other than one patch at the muzzle that plating was intact.
Turned out to be a good shooter after a bit of work.

[Greg B.]

Q & S,

I have one of those only the grips are plastic and it came with a little stamped slip on sheet metal rear sight that slid over the top of the frame at the rear of the cylinder which I believe allowed you to use .38 S&W ammo. In 1975 I paid $25.00 for it. The shop that was selling them had two wood barrels full and I picked one with the plastic grips because there wasn't as many as the ones with wood grips.

If by chance you come accross some old military ammo keep in mind that at least some of it was Berdan primed and does not have a central flash hole for the primer. If you use reloading dies designed for Boxer primers you will bend your decaping pin. By using new brass with the centre flash hole Boxer primers there is no problem. Also some of those WW2 vintage cartridges might have corossive primers which can rust your barrel if you don't clean it properly. I think you want to put hot water through the barrel, dry it and then clean it normally. The hot water gets rid of the salts which attract moisture.

I prefer Lyman dies for cast boolits because their neck expander plug [Lyman Neck Expanding M die] opens up and bells the case mouth a bit more which helps avoid shaved lead alloy boolits. This assumes that they are properly adjusted. Last I don't think anybody mentioned the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. An excelent loading manual for cast boolits. Unfortunately it only includes data for their molds and boolits.

Good luck with your project.
Greg B.

[Quiet.and.simple]

Just ordered a complete hammer assembly from Apex gun parts. I'll have to tap the pin out of the hammer nose, and install either a new pin, or the original one if it's salvageable. If anyone has already done this, I'd appreciate the advice. Also, if anyone has a use for the DA only hammer that I'll be taking the hammer nose out of, let me know.

[jrayborn]

Old Enfields are a lot like old Colts. Sure wish they could speak.

[Outpost75]

Another resurrected Zombie thread.

Never cared for the DAO Enfields, but love the 5-inch S&W Victory Models in .38 S&W, perfect proportions and they shoot well with either Accurate 36-187H or 36-190T and 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 640 fps.