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View Full Version : .223 rem...practical barrel length???



357maximum
01-15-2007, 01:11 AM
So I got this 223 H&R handi rifle with a 24 inch bull barrel......I am thinking veeeeeery seriously about cutting the barrel down in length for the sole purpose of making the the darn thing less muzzle heavy and lighter. How short is too short (performance) wise? I am thinking 18 or 20 inches...any thoughts, suggestions comments...would be greatly appreciated......I do not need hyper velocity...right now I am shooting 50 gr. T-N-T's at only 3300fps...and i do not care if I lose a little ooomph....I just want to make this handi a little more handi......It is used mostly as a truck gun for chucks and crows out to around 200 to 250 yards...a job it performs admirably...bet when I have to carry it to a field...for some long range varmint busting...I do not like carrying it.....so most the time when afoot I carry a lightweight hornet and give up a little ooomph....and I would rather carry the hani rifle beater instead...so how short should/can/would you go?...

thanks
Michael

9.3X62AL
01-15-2007, 01:33 AM
I use 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips atop 25.0 grains of WW-748 as my "go-to" load in 223 for bolt rifles. Not a max load, but it has been accurate in several such platforms. In 22" barrels, it goes about 3050-3100 FPS. In the 16.5" tube of my Ruger 77RC, it goes about 2850-2875 FPS. My nephew's good eyesight enabled some 1.25" to 1.5" groups at 200 meters with that whip-barrelled little critter, so the load works--even in rifles that shouldn't.

Phil
01-15-2007, 08:02 AM
20" should be ok. Much shorter and muzzle blast becomes annoying.

Cheers,

Phil

357maximum
01-15-2007, 08:22 AM
I have been doing alot of I-search, and i am going to try it at 20".....thanks guys

lovedogs
01-15-2007, 01:43 PM
357... Your idea of 20" might be about right. I've shot several Contenders, with both 10 & 14 inch bbls. The 10's are too short. With 50 gr. it would only go about 2600 FPS. The 14 inchers easily make 3000 FPS with 50 gr. I've had rifles with 22 & 24 inchers and haven't found much difference between them. On average the 22 inchers go about an even 3300 FPS with 50 gr. You should be able to reach 3200 FPS fairly easily with a 20 inch bbl. That would be just a tad more than a factory load in a 24 inch .222, which ain't too bad. I used .222's for decades and loved them. I still have one and use it a lot. With a good re-crown and a good shooting rifle you should get along fine.

dk17hmr
01-15-2007, 08:00 PM
You can go down to 16.5" with an H&R and be still .5 over legal barrel length and 4"(?) over minimum rifle length. I have 2 16" AR-15's and the best I can do for 64gr bullets is 2900 fps. With 35's and 40gr bullets alot faster.

Muzzle blast is amazing when I push the bullets hard. But I ALWAYS wear ear proctection when shooting my centerfires and most of the time with my 17hmr.

If you go that short and find out you dont like it I might be able to take the barrel off your hands for you.

357maximum
01-15-2007, 09:05 PM
You can go down to 16.5" with an H&R and be still .5 over legal barrel length and 4"(?) over minimum rifle length. I have 2 16" AR-15's and the best I can do for 64gr bullets is 2900 fps. With 35's and 40gr bullets alot faster.

Muzzle blast is amazing when I push the bullets hard. But I ALWAYS wear ear proctection when shooting my centerfires and most of the time with my 17hmr.

If you go that short and find out you dont like it I might be able to take the barrel off your hands for you.



DK

How transferrable are these barrels? I know what H&R claims, but I have seen them sell all the time on fleabay. I have put a few barrels on my new frames and they all headspaced correctly, but have you ever seen any issues?

My wife use an old 158topper in 30/30 ,,20 ga and them barrels will fit my newer frames, but my N series barrels will not fit her frame...(bottom of barrel on the old barrels are flat)..new ones are round...only differenc I can see by eye....

all my newer barrels will swap to my newer frames

I have (2) .223 barrels in H&R,NEF one is the lightweight and she is ok, but I use the heavy barrel for a truck gun...it was in slightly rusty shape outside and has a few shallow pits inside when I bought it,,,but it still outshoots the lightweight barrel by a HUGE margin...so it stays in the truck.... all of my frames have 2 pound triggers and that helps alot too....the heavy ultra gun will stay sub minute as far as one wants to shoot....I actually killed a sparrow at 320 yards with it while field practicing one day...and have killed a few woodchucks out to 1/4 mile fencerows....

H&R Ultra .223
25 grains 2230
rem 7.5
C.O.R length of 2.930 (stoney point)
50 Gr. T-N-T HP (bulk)
Remington 222 rem mag brass trimmed/fireformed to fit chamber

3339 AV @ 15 Ft.... 24in barrel


I think she will stay close to 3200 with the 20 incher...and hopefully I will not need to work a new load....I have about 600 loaded......but the barrel needs to get shorter...time will tell....I am thinking about getting the brownells tools and doing crowning myself...I already cut it off cleaned it up and blast was not bad at all.....but I need to do some crown work I am sure....will check first, but weather is not shooting weather right now....

Michael

dk17hmr
01-16-2007, 12:44 AM
They are some what interchangable. I havent done many swaps but the only one I had problems with is my 243 Ultra barrel that I got fitted from the factory to my frame. I snapped on a 50 cal muzzy barrel to the frame no problems and the barrel from my 410 fits my handi frame without a problem.

I wouldnt buy one off ebay..they are pretty over priced for the most part you can get a new barrel from NEF for $125, only thing is you have to send in the frame.

357maximum
01-16-2007, 03:42 AM
DK

wasn't intending on a fleabay purchase of one, but just curious, and you seemed to know about the H&R's.....most barrels are purdy darn cheap through H&R, but they will undo any tigger mods......

MtJerry
01-16-2007, 08:19 AM
Here are some instructions for home-fitting an NEF or H&R barrel to a frame. I have done it several times. The key is to GO SLOW and check the fit often.

Just to make it clear, all work needs to be done on the barrel, never make any changes to the frame or your other barrels won't fit proper.

Check the gap at the top of the barrel, if the gap is bigger there than closer to the middle, you'll need to remove metal from the pivot on the underlug. Before removing any metal from the pivot, use a flat mill file to make sure the barrel face at the chamber is flat, you'll see metal being removed on the high spots as bright while the low spots remain blue. A little degreasing and touch up blue will restore the finish after you make sure its nice and flat.

I used a drill bit wrapped with emery or crocus cloth to deepen the pivot point on the barrel. If you can find a file with the correct diameter, if will work tooThe pivot pin will measure .375", so you need a combined total of that amount between the drill bit and emery cloth thickness to maintain the pivot's size. Be careful not to get it out of square and not to make the pivot point any wider(change the radius), just deeper. Keep working it until it locks up and there is no visible gap between the barrel and standing breech. It should lock up tight on a .002" feeler gauge blade and snug on a .001" blade. Once you get that tolerance, you need to check the latch engagement. Clean, then smoke the latch shelf on the barrel with a candle, then mount the barrel and close the action, you should have no more than .080" latch engagement on the latch shelf as shown by the mark in the smoked shelf. If it barely engages, hone the latch shelf on the barrel with a stone to remove some metal and smooth the surface, check it again, continue until you get good engagement, but not too much, if you use up the travel of the latch, the barrel will be loose.


If the gap is too much when locked up, you can make a temporary shim to wrap the pivot pin to find out how thick the shim needs to be to get the barrel tight at the standing breech. The goal is to have no visible space at that point, and a .002" feeler gauge blade placed across the breech above the firing pin should be real tough or can't be pulled out of the space there...while a .001" blade can be pulled out with some effort. These 2 "specs" are what a factory fitted barrel will yield. I use soda pop can material for the temporary shim, it usually measures .002" and you can use multiple layers to get a thicker shim. Once you have determined the right thickness, buy a cheap feeler gauge set at an auto supply store, look for a set that has .001" increments in the blade assortment. Choose the right size blade, anneal it by heating it cherry red then let it air cool. Cut it to the width of the barrel lug pivot then file the piece so the edges are nice and flat. Rough up one side of it so epoxy will adhere good. Clean it and the barrel pivot well with acetone or alchohol. You'll also need something that is the same diameter or slightly smaller than the pivot pin which is .375" in diameter. I have a brass drift that is just the right size that I use to press the shim into the pivot using a "C" clamp. Just place the shim against the pivot surface, place the round drill bit or whatever you use against the shim, place the clamp jaw against the round stock and the other screw end of the clamp against the edge of the latch shelf and tighten the clamp. This will force the shim into the pivot surface and form it to the pivot. Once it's formed, just mix up some JB Weld epoxy and epoxy it together. Make sure you use a release agent on the round piece so you don't epoxy it to the barrel. I used TC Bore Butter on mine because it was handy, but Pam or just about any oil or grease should work, just be sure not to get the release agent on the epoxied surface or the epoxy won't hold. Wipe away any excess epoxy from the underlug surface and let it cure. I used the 4 minute JB Weld and it is fully cured in 4hrs at room temp. After it's cured used an 11/32" drill bit wrapped with emery cloth to make the final fitting. You want the emery cloth wrapped drill bit to measure as close to .375" diameter so the pivot surface is the same size as the pivot pin...so use the right size drill bit to get that total diameter including the emery cloth. After you get lock up and the correct spacing checks are made, work on the latch shelf according to the instructions above. Once you get everything fitted correctly, apply a bit of grease or oil to the pivot pin, I use Moly-Fusion on mine, but any lube will help maintain the tolerance of the fit so the barrel doesn't loosen over time. The latch and latch shelf can be dry or lubricated, it may shoot better one way or the other.

MtJerry
01-16-2007, 10:01 AM
DK

wasn't intending on a fleabay purchase of one, but just curious, and you seemed to know about the H&R's.....most barrels are purdy darn cheap through H&R, but they will undo any tigger mods......

What kind of trigger mods are you talking about? They will do trigger jobs for you if you request them. I've done several of my triggers and have barrels added, but they have never un-done the triggers.

BTW - I have 7 Handi Rifles. One of them is a .357 mag barrel reamed to .357 Max. [smilie=1:

They are all I hunt with.

357maximum
01-16-2007, 10:07 AM
Excellent post Jerry....filed that one away ... in case I ever run across a barrel I need. What I really want to find is a 22 hornet barrel for the pre 1973 model 158 topper,,, It is the skinny milled/fluted frame.....I am pretty sure all them fit interchangebly...from a day when quality control meant something....

I had one come back with a stock trigger in it...my handi worked 2 lb trigger was gone...back to stock....


Thanks again...excellent instructions
Michael

dk17hmr
01-16-2007, 01:02 PM
Doesnt take that long to get the trigger honed and polished so it is back down to were you want it. My orginal trigger before I polished it was about 4.5-5 pounds. Now after about 1/2 hour of work its down to about 2.5 pounds.

MtJerry
01-16-2007, 08:55 PM
Excellent post Jerry....filed that one away ... in case I ever run across a barrel I need. What I really want to find is a 22 hornet barrel for the pre 1973 model 158 topper,,, It is the skinny milled/fluted frame.....I am pretty sure all them fit interchangebly...from a day when quality control meant something....

I had one come back with a stock trigger in it...my handi worked 2 lb trigger was gone...back to stock....


Thanks again...excellent instructions
Michael

No need to thank me ... they are from a sticky on another board that I frequent.

Yours is the first I have heard of that came back with a factory trigger after trigger mods were done. I suspect they test fired it and decided that your trigger did not meet the "lawyer rule." I'd be a bit miffed too ...

357maximum
01-16-2007, 10:24 PM
No need to thank me ... they are from a sticky on another board that I frequent.

Yours is the first I have heard of that came back with a factory trigger after trigger mods were done. I suspect they test fired it and decided that your trigger did not meet the "lawyer rule." I'd be a bit miffed too ...

Wasn't really "miffed"...just letting others know it is possible....they were proably just putting a diaper on the situation...in todays pushy a$$ lawyer / sue for all you can get and do nothining to earn it society...I cannot really blame them...just would have liked to have known about it before it happened....I have another frame that is stock...I could have borrowed parts from it temporarily....


Hows' that 357 max shoot?...is it cast friendly?

MtJerry
01-17-2007, 01:13 AM
Hows' that 357 max shoot?...is it cast friendly?

It has become one of my favorites. It shoots an Ideal 358315 (204gr RN GC hollowpoint) like a dream over a bit of 5744. I am getting about 1800fps which puts me near 30-30 ballistics with a 22" barrel.

With a Lyman 358495 WC over a dab of W231 I am getting ragged holes at 25 yards.

Yeah, I like ... a LOT.