lead projectile in micro groove barrel

[duke76]

I have a Marlin with a micro groove barrel in 30-30 and was wandering about casting and shooting some lead bulletts for it and some guys at the gun club I shoot at said that I should not try it as it would lead the barrel very bad and I would have a terrible time removing the fouling. I have been reading through some posts and some guys are talking about the lead bullets in the micro groove barrel. My question is there something I have to look out for when loading these bullets or measure on my gun or barrel or have to shoot a certain hardness of lead ? or are the guys at my gun club full of bs and do not know what they are talking about. I would like to shoot the Lee 113 grain soup can bullet and posibbly the 150 grain Lee bullet. Is there a special lube I should be using or is the Lee tumble lube that comes with my sizer all I need. I have a 309 sizer and plan on using gas checks I have some old XM 5744 powder but I am open to almost any powder. Any help and or load suggestions for this would be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Todd

[Bass Ackward]

I have a Marlin with a micro groove barrel in 30-30 and was wandering about casting and shooting some lead bulletts for it and some guys at the gun club I shoot at said that I should not try it as it would lead the barrel very bad and I would have a terrible time removing the fouling. I have been reading through some posts and some guys are talking about the lead bullets in the micro groove barrel. My question is there something I have to look out for when loading these bullets or measure on my gun or barrel or have to shoot a certain hardness of lead ? or are the guys at my gun club full of bs and do not know what they are talking about. I would like to shoot the Lee 113 grain soup can bullet and posibbly the 150 grain Lee bullet. Is there a special lube I should be using or is the Lee tumble lube that comes with my sizer all I need. I have a 309 sizer and plan on using gas checks I have some old XM 5744 powder but I am open to almost any powder. Any help and or load suggestions for this would be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Todd


Todd,

The guys can be right. If you don't do things properly, then you can have a mess.

If you spend some time to read the numerous reports already listed here for 30/30s, you might even be able to better you guns results over time.

The sizer you need will be based on what you slug. .309 might be a little small. Won't know until you slug though.

Search for slugging.

Search for 30/30.

Search for lubricating with LLA.

Search for micro groove.

[9.3X62AL]

The gun club folks aren't completely full of BS, but cast boolits can be made to work well in Microgroove barrels with sufficient diameter. I haven't tried the 30-30 WCF MG barrels, but do have a Marlin Model 62 in 30 U.S. Carbine that dotes on the Lee Soup Can (113 grain flat round nose gas check). I size them to .311", and use a .309" expander spud from a 32-20 WCF die set to set the case flare and inside case mouth diameter. My non-MG 30-30 (Win 94) likes its boolits @.310", FWIW.

The .311" diameter was derived from the barrel's throat diameter (.310) and groove diameter (about .3095"). Most folks trying cast boolits in MG barrels have stated that FATTER IS BETTER. The above diameter values in my rifle are a little wide of standard--which wouldn't matter a whole lot with jacketed bullets, but it matters GREATLY with castings. The boolit MUST fit the barrel, or you're wasting range time--and will waste more time de-leading the bore after shooting.

I have used Hornady 30 caliber gas checks and Javelina Alox lube in my loads with several powders, getting to 1800 FPS with accuracy at least as good as that given by j-word bullets--and often better.

[imashooter2]

LOL! The last time we had this little conversation it went 3 pages:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=3966

Let's just say there are strong opinions on both sides of the issue.[smilie=1:

[crossfireoops]

Phew, just went through this archive.........

Amazing.

Has anybody from Marlin read this...?

I fit Badger Barrels, BPCRs, and kinda like the results. How "Tight" are the tight spots nt the MG barrels? ( the bigger bore sises)

I've run a ton of RF (39As) MG barrels.......some of which, rode hard, put away wet, honest working trapline guns...........never failed to shot great.

Are the big bore MG barrels THAT different? Got one, ready to go.... S&W .44 Mag.

Is it worth messin' around with...to a dedicated CB type, or should I flog it?

GTC

[August]

I shoot nothing but lead in my micro-grooved .44 model 94 and wouldn't hesitate to do serious work at 100 yards or more. Never misses at the cowboy shoots and lever action competitions.

[Pat I.]

I have two Mdl 94 44 mag rifles I shoot with cast bullets and as long as I use a bullet sized to .432 with a good strong front driving band they shoot just fine. Personally I use an LBT 280 gr LFN bullet sized .432 over 19.5 grains of AA #9, not a target rifle but not bad for what the gun was designed for.

[Char-Gar]

Lordy do we need a Microgroove Sticky!!!!

Long story short, MG barrels will shoot cast, just as well as traditional style rifling at any speed with bullets that FIT. MG barrels tend to be larger in both land and groove diamter than traditional style rifling, and many cast bullets are too small in the nose to work well.

SAECO makes a fatter version of their 170 grain FN 30-30 bullet and markets it as a .303 Brit bullet. It is a lousy bullet for the .303 Brits, but is the MG 30-30 bullet from the Headwaters. Sized .310 - .311 this bullet will shoot as good and as fast as any jacketed bullet. Assuming proper alloy and powder of course.

[9.3X62AL]

Lordy do we need a Microgroove Sticky!!!!

You might be right, Chargar!

Based on preliminary indications with the Glock 45 ACP octo-bore, I'm leaning toward a blanket statement like "SIZE MATTERS", or "IF THE BOOLIT FITS, SHOOT IT". Run the numbers--do the math--no short cuts.

[357maximum]

You might be right, Chargar!

Based on preliminary indications with the Glock 45 ACP octo-bore, I'm leaning toward a blanket statement like "SIZE MATTERS", or "IF THE BOOLIT FITS, SHOOT IT". Run the numbers--do the math--no short cuts.


True so true....

A old high school buddy of mine had a motto that fits too...."I LIKE EM FAT"...both microgrooves I have played with concur with that statement...

[cabezaverde]

I shoot nothing but lead in my micro-grooved .44 model 94 and wouldn't hesitate to do serious work at 100 yards or more. Never misses at the cowboy shoots and lever action competitions.

Tell me more about your bullet and load please.

[NickSS]

I have used Lyman 31108 115 gr FP and lyman 311291 bullets sized .311 for years in my Marlin MG 30-30s with great accuracy. Most loads were in the 1200 to 1600 fps range powered by Unique. I have driven the 311 291 as high as 2000 fps with IMR 3031 however, when I wanted to deer hunt with lead bullets. It shot at least as good as jacketed does in my rifle.

[duke76]

Alright, I slugged my barrel and it slugged 308 but that is after I pushed it all the way through it seemed like it got tighter about 3/4 of the way down the barrel so is that accurate? so what should I size the bullet to, I was thinking 311 then, that is what Lee has, I already have a 309 sizer but everyone says bigger is better. My next question is if I buy a soup can mold will it throw a bullet large enough to size down to 311 or do I have to get something else? Is there any way to make the bullet larger, remember all I have is Lee equipment. The only sizer I have are Lee sizers and the only way I have ever lubed is by tumble lubing. I am not opposed to pan lubing as long as the bullet is big enough as I would have to run it through the 311 sizer to install the gas check. Sorry for all the questions.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't tumble-lube, so I can't help with that question.......but my Lee Soup Cans fall free at about .3115". If your mold doesn't throw them fat enough, there is always "Beagling", which is the use of HVAC tape on block faces to "cheat" another .002" or so out of a mold. Look that up on a search here.

[BABore]

You might also want to slug just the muzzle end of the rifle to see if you have any bore constrictions. Just drive it in, then back out and compare to your full pass slug. Not unheard of to have 1-2 thousandths of constriction under the threads, dovetails, or roll marking. Won't do your accuracy any good if the bullets get resized in the bore.

[duke76]

what is the secret to knocking out the slug from the chamber end to measure the muzzle ,if you use a cleaning rod do you just flex it that much, sounds risky on a lever gun that you might hurt the lands, not like a bolt action where you can just take the bolt out.

[Ricochet]

With a Marlin it's a simple matter (if you have a proper fitting screwdriver for the lever hinge screw) to remove the bolt for access to the breech.

[BABore]

Yepper, and every time you clean it too.:-D Don't feel bad, alot of Marlin owners don't know they come apart for breech cleaning. One of the reasons I like em better than Winny's.

I've slugged revolvers with both muzzle and full pass slugs. I always use hollow egg fishing sinkers for slugging. In this case, for the muzzle slug, I push a small headed nail through the hole in the sinker and pinch the end down tight. Then reverse it and tap it into the bore with an empty case or hollow ended brass punch. Lock onto the pointy end of the nail with vise grips and pull it back out. Tricky, but it works.

[Pat I.]

I'd size the bullet as big as possible as long as it'll chamber. The throat on the 30-30 is pretty steep and has no ball seat so sizing it big won't hurt and will more than likely help. As far as lubing you could try the TL to see what happens. It might be alright if you keep the velocity low enough, I don't know. I use it in my O3-A3 and it works alright. Every gun's different and every bullet's different so I'd quit slugging the thing before you drive yourself nuts and go shoot it to see what it'll do.

[Char-Gar]

OK Duke.. You asked so here goes..

I really sorta kinda doubt the groove dimeter is .308. It is prolly .309 to .310 Sounds like you have some junk in the breech end of the barrel. To slug a barrel with any degree of accuracy, it must be CLEAN and that includes removing all of the metal fouling that tends to accumulate. You will have to remove all of this anyway, as the rifle won't shoot cast worth squat until you do.

The good news is it really doesn't matter what the groove diameter is. You want your bullet to fit the rifle throat and if you do that, they will surely be bigger than the groove diameter. 30-30 lever guns are cut kinda sloppy and I have never seen one that would not accept .311 bullets. So, just shoot 311 bullets and don't worry about it.

Land diameter is probably around .302 - .304, although I have one MG barrel that runs .306 accross the lands. The only way to know is to use some machinest gages. Don't worry about it, most cast bullets are going to be too small anyway. The exception will be the SAECO mold I mentioned before.

You can get arouind this for most purposes by using a bullet that is at least 50% body. The SAECO and Lyman 311291 are good examples. If half or more of the body is supported by the lands and grooves, you can get by with a nose that is a little on the small size.

Cast you bullets from ACWW or something harder, size them .311 and go a shootin! 16/2400, 17/4759, 26/H335 will all give good accuracy and velocities in the 1.6 to 1.8 K fps range. For full snort loads go 30 grains of H335 or 3031.

[duke76]

Wow, I learned something today, I have had that gun for a couple of years and never knew you could take the bolt out by taking the screw out of the lever. All this time when I cleaned it I used a brass muzzle protector and cleaned it from the muzzle end. Also when I slugged it I used pure lead 350 diameter lead balls, I did it twice and came out with 308 both times, tonight I will try it just with the muzzle end instead of all the way through but I probably will end up shooting 311 size bullets any way .

[grumpy one]

duke, just watch out for the ejector. When you take out the bolt, then handle the rifle, the ejector will probably fall out and you'll momentarily be upset wondering how to put it back. Just remember the immortal words of Douglas Adams: "DON'T PANIC". It's quite easy to put back - it more or less falls into place.

I'd never consider cleaning my Marlin without removing lever, bolt and ejector. Just a few seconds dismantling and reassembling, nothing tricky or fiddly involved.

[duke76]

I slugged the muzzle and made sure it was very clean and still got 308, I think I will order a soup can mold and 311 sizer and cast from linotype now just to find a good load, thanks, Todd

[mag_01]

----Marlin MG----mine shoots fine---never had a problem----160gr. Lee boolit g/c with 16.5 of 2400 for a light load and 21.5grs. of AA5744 for a heavy load as for a lube I use a version of Felix lube---Boolit is sized .311 and as usual start a little lower and work up loads. For the 2400 load a weak (soft) boolit is ok for the 5744 a strong (hard) boolit is best. good luck loading your 30-30 it sure is a fun shooter----Mag

[Ricochet]

I've had rifles that, with minimal cleaning, built up sufficient hard carbon in the throat of the bore to produce a "choke" that would size the bullet down, after which it would rattle down the rest of the bore with wild inaccuracy. It's amazingly difficult to get that stuff back out once it's built up. It's really hard!