Couple of fire-lapping questions

[subsonic]

Why should you use unsized, or way oversize boolits for this? It seems like anything larger than the constriction would work and staying under or at throat size would reduce cutting at the cylinder throats. I like my throats the size they are, thanks.

Why don't you want the normal lube on the boolits? I have a bunch of sized, lubed, air cooled WW boolits already. I'd like to use them rather than cast a bunch more.

Is it better to seat the boolits on the powder, deep in the case, or just at the mouth of the case?

I've read Veral Smith's and Marshall Stanton's words on the subject as well as Fermin Garza's too....

Anybody know what grit is in Veral's compound? I have it already on hand, or I'd have tracked down the clover stuff Marshall talks about in both 320 and 280 grits (Stainless Ruger on the list).

[Catshooter]

Why should you use unsized, or way oversize boolits for this? It seems like anything larger than the constriction would work and staying under or at throat size would reduce cutting at the cylinder throats. I like my throats the size they are, thanks.So size 'em smaller that throat size.

Why don't you want the normal lube on the boolits? I have a bunch of sized, lubed, air cooled WW boolits already. I'd like to use them rather than cast a bunch more. Why would you want to mix lube with an abrasive? I bet it would still work, but probably much more slowly. Don't get lazy, cast more. The boolits should be softer than WW too. I've always used pure.

Is it better to seat the boolits on the powder, deep in the case, or just at the mouth of the case? Seat normally.

I've read Veral Smith's and Marshall Stanton's words on the subject as well as Fermin Garza's too.... Don't they cover these questions? Why wouldn't you believe them?

Anybody know what grit is in Veral's compound? I have it already on hand, or I'd have tracked down the clover stuff Marshall talks about in both 320 and 280 grits (Stainless Ruger on the list). Veral doesn't say and won't tell. I think it's a mixture of his own. Stainless Ruger . . . too bad. Maybe you're not being lazy after all. I've never done one but I've heard of needing 200 + rounds as being common with them. I've done some stainless barrels and they all took way more boolits than carbon steel bores.

Good luck. In my experience it's always been worth doing and I've done probably 20 guns.


Cat

[markinalpine]

Try this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=102711
and the article it references: http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

Mark [smilie=s:

[altheating]

Stainless Rugers are tough barrels. I just did a Ruger 77/44 with rounds about 60 rds. I also used a patch and jag on the restriction prior to using the LBT kit. The LBT kit is well worth the $18.00 I recommend buying the lapping kit and his book. I think he charges 10 bucks shipping, so fill the box up. For the $18 Iv'e have now done 8 or 9 rifles so far. (two hornets, two 222's, 223, 30-06, 358 win, 350 rem Mag and the 77/44) Everyone of them has improved beyond belief. All were done per Veral's instructions with the exception of the 77/44. That restriction had to go first or it would have been taken well over 200 rounds. I don't know what grit it is, always just take the goo out of the bottle. I've always seated them flush and make sure the case is wiped clean.

[subsonic]

Catshooter,

The grit is suspended in lube, a grease. I don't know why more lube in the groove that's not cutting anything anyway would hurt - so I defer to the board. Both Veral and Marshall specifically say to use un-sized, un-lubed boolits for some reason.

Both books (Veral and Marshall's) say to use 9-13bnh boolits - air cooled WW. Mine measure 11bnh.

Neither covers the "why" to these questions, so that's why I'm throwing them out here.

On seating, Veral says seat against powder with a dowel. Marshall says seat normally using a bolt in your press. Fermin says seat boolits backwards with the bolt and if they fall in, don't worry about it. Guess it doesn't matter. I'm deep seating to contain the mess and powder. I think if I have to choose who to beleive, it will be Veral.

[tek4260]

I've designated 24 shells to firelapping and after the 1st time firing, I have simply pressed the boolits in by hand over Trailboss. I de-prime with a punch over an upside down shell holder.

I don't see what it would hurt to use your sized and lubed boolits. I think it would cut much slower that having a lube groove full of lapping compound to continue to feed the compound in the bore as it travels down.

Why not just drop your boolits in boiling water and melt the lube out of the grooves. Won't it float to the top where you can skim it off?

[btroj]

With the light, I mean really light, loads you need to use the deep seating helps with good combustion. It also keep the bullet entirely in the case which helps keep the grit off the chamber walls.
You want a load that gives 600 fps or so if possible. Get the bullet out of the barrel, not much more.
The reason for the soft lead is this- it creates a "dead" bullet. You want a bullet that will not "bounce" back up if it is sized down. This makes it so the bullet cuts more at the breech and removes the tight spot. If the bullet springs back it merely smooths the barrel the entire length but doesn't change the dimensions. We want a bullet that cuts until sized down by the barrel and then just rides the lands til exit. This is how the constriction is removed. I hope this explains it well enough.

Fire lapping is not a difficult thing to do. Key is patience. Take the time to get the grit well imbedded in the bullet. Take the time to clean any and all grit off the outside of the cases. Take the time to clean the barrel every 5 to 10 rounds. The cylinder at least as often, keep the grit off the chamber walls. Take the time to keep an eye on the machine marks on in the bore at the muzzle, they give an indication of when the barrel has been smoothed of constructions. keep in mind that you can always remove more metal but it can't be put back on. I would start with 24 rounds or so then clean well and shoot some "normal" loads. Does it still lead? Continue with this lap and test til you eliminate leading to your satisfaction.

This is not a real fast process but it does work. I figure on multiple trips to the range to get it just right.

[PacMan]

With the small amounts of powder i have found seating them as deep as possible to be the best.By the way use fired unsized brass witha very slight flair. Flair just enough that they will still chamber but allow you to seat the bullet without scraping the grit off.
Most of the time all you will need to do is push the bullet in with a little force unless they are really fat. I think when they talk about as fat as possible they really mean as fat as will fit tightly thru your cylinder throats. Any bigger does no good.
There is very little recoil but enough to dislodge some of the bullets.No great harm but if the bullet in other chambers move forward to much you will not have enough presure to clear the end of the barrel. I load one and shott and the another.

[tek4260]

I had a bad experience with my bolt for seating firelapping boolits. You can simply screw your seater die in upside down from the bottom and use the smooth head of it to seat the boolits.

[subsonic]

Thanks for all of the help! I re-read Veral's instructions and did see that he covers sizing to avoid throat cutting. He says .0015-.002 UNDER throat diameter because the grit will add .002" or so to boolit diameter. I will boil a couple of boolits and see what happens.

[2 dogs]

Ok, I wrote the article in response to a bunch of misinformation that was going on after Ross Seyfried wrote his article on the Ruger 44 specials to try to clear up what exactly firelapping did and how I did what I did.

Your questions are a bit like asking why water is wet. I use oversize unlubed bullets because they work so well! As the article states I have not been able to measure any enlarging of the throats and I have gone thru the trouble to purchase the tools to measure them carefully. If you want to use your sized lubed bullets go ahead. Let us know how it works. My article also states why I seat the bullets deep in the case.

I was never looking to reinvent the wheel or declare myself some kind of firelapping Guru. Im quite sure there is more than one way to skin this cat. Remember this is the internet and I dont want anybody getting all butt hurt if they ask me a question and dont like my answer as that is not my intention.

[subsonic]

Ok, I wrote the article in response to a bunch of misinformation that was going on after Ross Seyfried wrote his article on the Ruger 44 specials to try to clear up what exactly firelapping did and how I did what I did.

Your questions are a bit like asking why water is wet. I use oversize unlubed bullets because they work so well! As the article states I have not been able to measure any enlarging of the throats and I have gone thru the trouble to purchase the tools to measure them carefully. If you want to use your sized lubed bullets go ahead. Let us know how it works. My article also states why I seat the bullets deep in the case.

I was never looking to reinvent the wheel or declare myself some kind of firelapping Guru. Im quite sure there is more than one way to skin this cat. Remember this is the internet and I dont want anybody getting all butt hurt if they ask me a question and dont like my answer as that is not my intention.

Thank you for the response. Just asking anybody who's done it before. Sounded like you had done it a few times and maybe had tried some stuff that wasn't "in the book".

[2 dogs]

You are more than welcome. Please let me know if I can help, AND how your work turns out.

Take some pics and such!!!!

[dubber123]

I am sure all the lapping boolits I have used were well over throat diameter and I could never detect any appreciable enlargement of chamber throats afterwards. I haven't done as many as some on here, (maybe a dozen), but I am absolutely sold on the process. I have always used 320 grit, as it's what I have. Good luck.

[Marine Sgt 2111]

Not wanting to through brass away after using it to firelap a barrel, I was reading about a slightly different approach than embedding the grit into the bullets. It seems you take a bore mop of the correct caliber, put a light coating of grit on it, swab the bore and shoot your reduced ammo. The abrasive used was something made be JB.
I have a Marlin .32-20 with the usual tight spots under the front and rear sights. I was thinking of using 320 grit for 10 rounds, cleaning the barrel and then 30 rounds using 1000 grit clover (because I have a one pound can) to polish the barrel.
I know you have to be careful about keeping the compound out of the chamber area but what are your thoughts on fire lapping in this manner? (I'm not trying to hijack the thread it's just you were talking about fire lapping)

[Lloyd Smale]

i do it like 2dogs does and ive yet to loose a piece of brass i used to firelap with.
Not wanting to through brass away after using it to firelap a barrel, I was reading about a slightly different approach than embedding the grit into the bullets. It seems you take a bore mop of the correct caliber, put a light coating of grit on it, swab the bore and shoot your reduced ammo. The abrasive used was something made be JB.
I have a Marlin .32-20 with the usual tight spots under the front and rear sights. I was thinking of using 320 grit for 10 rounds, cleaning the barrel and then 30 rounds using 1000 grit clover (because I have a one pound can) to polish the barrel.
I know you have to be careful about keeping the compound out of the chamber area but what are your thoughts on fire lapping in this manner? (I'm not trying to hijack the thread it's just you were talking about fire lapping)

[2 dogs]

Lloyd, thats TWICE you have agreed with me here lately....

[longbow]

I have to ask.

What is the benefit of fire lapping over hand lapping?

Hand lapping allows you to find and remove any tight spots and put a slight taper in the barrel if you want.

I can see fire lapping being easier if you are just "polishing" but when I see maybe 200 rounds needed, that is a lot of shooting ~ powder, primers, lead, time ~ with light loads that aren't good for much.

Is it easier to get good results fire lapping?

I guess with a revolver there is the benefit of cylinder throats getting opened up and evened out some which might be a little harder hand lapping.

Just curious.

Longbow

[wtfooptimax200]

In a recent post in reference to fire lapping an article was posted suggesting the careful use of pin gauges to measure barrel constriction instead of the more common method of slugging the bore. It seems to be a much easier method, has anyone here tried it? Other than the potential of the pin gauge damaging the rifling, are there any other issues to be aware of with this technique?

Branden

[subsonic]

In a recent post in reference to fire lapping an article was posted suggesting the careful use of pin gauges to measure barrel constriction instead of the more common method of slugging the bore. It seems to be a much easier method, has anyone here tried it? Other than the potential of the pin gauge damaging the rifling, are there any other issues to be aware of with this technique?

Branden

I have not had good luck with the pin gauges. I have a barrel that is tight at both ends, so of course it slips easily all the way through, but doesn't show that it is very loose between the forcing cone and front sight. The pin gauge set I have goes in .001" increments. I have fired about 100rds through a barrel and removed half of a restriction or more, and the same pin gauges fit - my restriction is less than .001" I have had much better luck "feeling" the tight areas with a lead slug. Even a tight patch on a jag will catch the tight spots if you pay enough attention. The pin gauges are nice to have anyway, if only to know that you haven't removed too much, or if your problem is only on the forcing cone end of a revolver barrel and is great enough that the pin will catch it. I also feel like the place you need to measure is at the bottom of the grooves, which the pin gauges cannot "reach".

[gidgaf]

I just used the 320 grit valve grinding compound on regular cast bullets. I just rolled them with the handy brick until they were embedded, and placed them in the cases, full powder. One fire lap round, then one regular, I intended to shoot 25 firelaps. By the 18th my rifle had a nice CRACK to it, so I stopped at 20. A very thorough cleaning happened, and I started shooting to check the results.
Before this I was doing good to stay on the 9" paper plate at the 125 yard mark. Now I consistently stay within the 6" center. This is with open iron sights on a warm and windy day, BTW. Every so often I get the supposed horror story of someone who had ruined their gun. Nobody has *known* anybody, but they've heard. ANYway, I stopped at tthe major sound change, and I'm rela happy with the results.
And yeah, that nice smooth bore cleans so fast and easy now! Two tugs with the pull thru, and the oil patch comes out clean.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I used pin gauges to monitor firelapping progess on my stainless .44 Redhawk. Before I started, a .416 would go muzzle to recoil shield with no resistance. A .417 would go maybe a quarter inch. I did have tool marks on the lands that I could easily see from muzzle and forcing cone ends and monitored those as well.

I cleaned the bore and chambers after each cylinder. It took 24 rounds, IIRC, to remove the front sight constriction. It took 108 rounds total to get the frame constriction taken care of. The last 2 cylinders were using 600 grit Wheeler compound. The rest were 320 grit beartooth compound. I did not spend a lot of time rolling bullets. I gave them about 30 second of rolling and made sure the lube grooves were full of coumpound. Loaded backwards over 3.2 gr Titegroup. I finished by fire Flitzing. I swabbed the forcing cone and first quarter inch or so of the bore with Flitz and fired a bare naked firelapping load. 12 rds of that polished thinkgs nicely.

I could detect no change in throat diameter before and after. Groove diameter was also the same before and after.

If you use a pin gauge and the bore has a constriction, you can get it stuuck in the bore. This happens if you push on it or if it free-falls and gets going too fast. A .41 or .40 bullet comes in handy. Drop it in the forcing cone, cover the forcing cone, and shake over a towel to catch the gauge and bullet. Use your pinky to insert the gauge into the muzzle. When you meet resistance, stop and pull the gauge.

[Clay M]

My Ruger Redhawk .41 mag has a rough throat. Just wondering if jacketed bullets would work any better than cast for fire lapping stainless steel?

[Catshooter]

Clay,

I don't think so. I've always used lead for fire lapping so that's just my opinion. If I recall correctly though some of the theory behind fire lapping is that by pressing hard when rolling the compound into the boolits you are embedding the grit into the lead.

I think that you'll just have to tough it out with the Ruger. And tough is the operative word as their stainless is just that. Start with fifty and be ready to load more if needed.


Cat

[rhead]

I use jewelers rouge on a paper patched boolit. the paper patching makes it easier to get an even coating. I load the cartridge to a light target level. You can watch the groups shrink as you shoot. Three hundred or five hundred grit size should work fine too if a lot of metal needs to be removed.

Often when the WHY on a process is hard to determine is that we are looking at empirical data. They tried many combinations and that mix worked the best.

[blue360cuda]

The lapping compound Beartooth recommends is "clover" compound made by felpro. I found a guy on e-bay who sells RC car stuff and apparently they use the compound for something, polishing axles or whatever. So I picked up a 4 oz tub of Clover 280 and 400 grit. Got both 4oz tubs for 5 bucks each i think. The beartooth kit comes with 320. The compound from beartooth seems very similar to this clover stuff, maybe a touch more grease to it. Anyways, for my SBH hunter 44 it had about .002 thread choke per slugging and a .416 pin gauge would just start in the muzzle about 1 inch. I used beartooth lapping boolets which mic at .435 if I recall. Rolled up 18 of the 280, then did about 70 of the 320 grit. Per the beartooth manual I hand lapped using cotton t-shirt material wrapped around a brass brush for a .22 Did 100 strokes with the 320 then switched to 400 for final polish.

Used 4.0g Unique for my loads, which chrono at the 550fps range in my .44 mag. Gave me something to do with those shorty Hornady cases I had sitting around.

Now after using nearly all the 100 boolits in the kit I have 98-100% of the constriction removed. The muzzle is just about 0.0002 larger 1 inch in by slugging vs the breech at this point so not tapered the whole way, i doubt this is significant. I've noticed a touch of leading at the muzzle for the last 1 inch but nothing major at all. Now a .417 pin gauge slips all way through no problem. A .418 won't fit in the muzzle. Group sizes have improved. Original groups with 240 SWC sized 430 were around 6in at 50 yds. Now i'm finally working on a load the Hunter seems to like with 310 WFN GC and H110 / 2400. Best group has been 5 shots into 1 hole about 1 inch in size and one flyer shot 2 inch south.

by the way, you can also find a guy on e-bay selling single pin gauges. No sense buying a whole set for 70-100 bucks. I bought ZZ i think, so accurate enough for sure. Got .430, 431, 432, 433 and 415, 416, 417, 418 Price was 2.99 a gauge i recall

[nockhunter]

I was thinking of fire lapping a few of my Rugers. I was planning on doing this in my garage by firing into 5 gal buckets full of wet sand. I was going to use 2-2.5g of red dot, with 240g .44 boolits and 250g .45 boolits seated right on the powder charge. Does any one know what the velocity of this load is and will 1 or 2 buckets of sand stop these safely? It would be much easier than hauling all my junk to the range.

Mike

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=nockhunter;3379331]I was thinking of fire lapping a few of my Rugers. I was planning on doing this in my garage by firing into 5 gal buckets full of wet sand. I was going to use 2-2.5g of red dot, with 240g .44 boolits and 250g .45 boolits seated right on the powder charge. Does any one know what the velocity of this load is and will 1 or 2 buckets of sand stop these safely? It would be much easier than hauling all my junk to the range.

I used 2.0 grains of Bullseye with 260 gr. boolits seated normally to lap a 7.5" Ruger BH in .45 Colt. Didn't chrono, but SLOW. I would suspect a single pail would stop them with ease. If shooting into the sides of the bucket, they might ricohet, so be careful there. If you have much choke, be prepared to spend some time, it took about 100 with 320 grit to free up the last one. Groups went from 4"+ at 50 yds. to 2". No leading at all with a plain based 310 gr. boolit at 1,325 fps. after lapping. I have had nothing but success with the process.

[nockhunter]

Thanks for the info Dubber.
I was pretty sure I would be OK with the bucket full of sand, but just wanted a little confirmation. I was planning on shooting down into the bucket, and for creeping bullets at every shot.

Mike

[44man]

Yeah, done right you can almost out run a boolit. Fun to watch them float across the yard.

[Big Boomer]

It does little good to firelap unless the chamber throats are greater than bore groove diameter. Once that dimension is correct, then firelapping becomes effective. The reason for the need for a wheel weight hardness boolit is that anything harder will have a certain amount of "spring-back." Same reason not to use jacketed bullets. They will slim down to the size of the constriction then spring back to the size of the bore. A lap works best earlier, less well later, which produces a choke bore. Ideally, the chamber mouths would be .0005 to .001 greater than the breech end of the barrel groove diameter, and the breech end of the barrel groove diameter .0005 to .001 greater than the muzzle groove diameter. This can be guaranteed only using the fire lap method. Hand lapping simply cannot compete due to human error. A few too many strokes here or there and a barrel can be ruined at worst or out of whack at best unless one is a specialist and most of us are not in this area. Care must be exercised when doing a rifle barrel. A bit too much and the leade will be ruined by being oversized. The way to do a rifle is to simple put the lap on the nose of a non-flat-nose boolit and make sure that it is seated out into the breech end of the barrel. With a light load of powder just to get the boolit out the end of the muzzle, the bore will be polished and the leade left as is. Ruger stainless steel barrels are the hardest but yield the finest results when you hang in there as long as it takes. It is painstaking and dirty but a big aerosol can of WD40 eases the pain considerably. Cleaning regularly, checking to verify progress and where you are in the process are indispensable. A friend had a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Mag. and the barrel lands looked like they had been threaded. It would shoot jacketed well enough but lead boolits were out of the question. He knew I had fire lapped all my revolvers so he asked me about working on his Redhawk. We first reamed out the chamber mouths (that's another subject altogether). Then we began fire lapping the barrel, checking on the "threads" on the lands at the muzzle. They were gradually disappearing. We eventually got to the place where he could shoot cast boolits without leading, but they had to be .432 in diameter. Since I had a .44 at that time, I supplied him with cast boolits that met his needs. He later discovered the Redhawk .45 Colt and traded off the .44 and we did a repeat performance with his .45 Redhawk. His eyes had aged over the years and he needed a scope by that time. With that .45 Redhawk he could shoot 1-hole groups at 50 yds. That's about as good as it gets. Some decry fire lapping at all but it is a method that is the shooter's friend when done properly, exercising great care. Just my opinion and my experience. Big Boomer