Information on my 1896 BSA&M Cavalry Carbine

[303Guy]

Would anyone (Multigunner?) know about the 1896 BSA&M cavalry carbine? Mine does not match a collectors sample. It has the rear sight further back and a replaceable front sight blade otherwise the receiver body has all the same markings plus some. The knox form is different and the barrel actually looks shorter.

Were the New Zealand ones different?

Mine could not accomodate the top wood that normally sits between the knox form and the rear sight. The barrel does not have matching numbers to the receiver and there are two additional sets of numbers on the receiver ring indicating it might be on its fourth barrel.

[Multigunner]

Mine could not accomodate the top wood that normally sits between the knox form and the rear sight. The barrel does not have matching numbers to the receiver and there are two additional sets of numbers on the receiver ring indicating it might be on its fourth barrel.

None of the Carbines pictured on this site have top wood.
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Lee-Speed.htm

I do believe there were some variants used by New Zealand. There were variants used by Ireland that differed from those used by the British.
Besides Calvary Carbines there were other short barreled rifles used by Engineers and Artillerymen, I doubt those were quite as well done up as the BSA commercial or officers carbines.

As I had said earlier I don't know much about the short barreled Carbines, I only remember bits and pieces of what a few owners of these carbines have posted about them on other boards.

How many such Carbines were government issue and how many were produced by BSA to fill civilian contracts I'd have no idea.

I vaguely remember something about a second set of numbers sometimes found on a receiver ring, but it eludes me for the moment.
One collector once mentioned a full rack of .22 target conversions ay a cadet school all bearing the exact same number, obviously not as a serial number but some code to ID these as belonging to that school.

Before 1925 British gunlaws did not recognize the action body or receiver of a long arm as being the major identifying part of the rifle. They went by the serial number on the barrel, a holdover from muzzle loader days when the barrel was the most important single part and no receiver as such existed.
For some time a rifle with damaged action body would be stripped and all salvageable parts transfered to an un numbered finished action body from a stock of production over runs held in reserve for this purpose, the new action body numbered to match the numbers on the barrel.
If no un numbered new action body was available perhaps a action body salvaged from another carbine or rifle might have been substituted and re numbered to match the barrel.



If your Carbine bears a replacement barrel now it may have left BSA with a Metford barrel.
A pre WW1 rifle that spent several generations being banged about in the tropics may well have been rebarreled many times in the past.

[303Guy]

Thanks for that.

That Lee-Speed carbine is the action my Dads rifle was built on! It has the shotgun type safety. It works in reverse to a shotgun with forward being 'safe'. The barrel on it resembles my carbine barrel.

Here's a link to what my action was possibly married to initially.
http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1896leeenfieldno1serial12542?p=76&w=1&n=1&c=4&m=24&s=0&y=0&z=3&l=0

Here one can see the top wood.
http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1896leeenfieldno1serial12542?p=84&w=1&c=4&n=0&m=24&s=0&y=0&z=3&l=0

This does seem a rather long carbine but I suppose as compared to the full length rifle of the day ....

[herbert buckland]

On the miltary LM and LE carbines the top wood is only in front of the back sight,the back sight is also further bach tawards the noks forme,has it got a bayonet boss fitted(posible NZ carbine)is the bolt handle flatened and slitly swept foward,the front sight does not seem right but you never know with comercial ones,a couple of photos and I am sure it can be identifyed,do not do any thing to it untill it has been identifyed as some of the carbines are are quite valuble

[Multigunner]

Thanks for that.

That Lee-Speed carbine is the action my Dads rifle was built on! It has the shotgun type safety. It works in reverse to a shotgun with forward being 'safe'. The barrel on it resembles my carbine barrel.

This does seem a rather long carbine but I suppose as compared to the full length rifle of the day ....


In general pre WW2, and to some extent later on, any rifle with barrel shorter than 24 inches would be considered a Carbine, with barrels of 24-26 inches being short rifles. The SMLE and Springfield 1903 were short rifles while the 22 inch barreled Krag was in the Carbine class.

Nowdays 22 inch barreled rifles are generally considered as short rifles, 20 inches or less being in the Carbine class.

Some Long Lee Enfield rifles were cut down to the same barrel length as the SMLE, mainly as training rifles but also for more serious uses.
The Lithgow Heavy Barrel for SMLE target and sniper rifles was a development of the cut down LE rifles, though the standard heavy barrels were purpose made in that configuration.

An LE or Lee Metford action with a Lithgow heavy barrel, either SMLE length or trimmed shorter, would have a different knox form compared to the original LE or Metford barrels.

PS
IIRC a image you posted earlier showed the butt socket markings on the lefthand side.
I foget the significance of that, but seem to remember that this meant something.

[303Guy]

On the miltary LM and LE carbines the top wood is only in front of the back sight,This is true of the Long Toms too.

My rifle does not have the flattened and swept forward bolt handle.

I'm suspecting that my rifle started out as shown in the BSA&M link photo but ended up with a barrel from the Speed-Lee carbine (not sure. I'll have to try proportioning the sight radius with mine).

Pics to follow soon.

[303Guy]

Here's one I took when I first got it.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-542F.jpg

The foresight differs from the Speed-Lee. The fore-end is from an SMLE. The buttstock is a NZ militay one but not with matching numbers.

[herbert buckland]

By in front of the back sight ,I mean between the back and front sight,the long tom only has the top hand guard behind the back sight,it is hard to tell weathe you gun started life as a carbine(the back sight is in the right place for a carbine)I can not make out the front sight properly but it seem to be simular to NZ carbines front sight,if the action is marked on the left side it is a carbine action and there will be no provision for volly sight,rifles are marked on the right side,also the triger guard is difrent in the carbine(there is a slot for the magizine chain link to sit below the stock to a special 6 round magizine.If it is a NZ barrel action and the barrel is in good shape it would be worth trying to restore,

[303Guy]

This is the image from the link I gave above.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSC0531420_Medium__edited.jpg

It has an identical action to mine. The stampings and markings all over the action are the same. The rear sight looks the same but my one goes up to 200 yds while the one in the pic goes to 1800 yds.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSC0545520_Medium_.jpg

Here is the fore-sight. The sight base is integral with the barrel.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5555_edited-1.jpg

It originally had the volley sights.

[herbert buckland]

the 1800yd sight is of a martini Metford,the front sight is a modification that was very common around the 1920s depending on what type of rifling the barrel has it is either a MM carbine barrel or a barrel made up from parts, booth common practice by Nz and Australian gunsmiths

[303Guy]

I don't know what MM rifling looks like but this one looks pretty much to be ordinary five groove Enfield rifling. I believe this rifle was used as a target rifle so a modified front sight would make sense. The fact that the barrel and receiver numbers don't match would suggest a civilian gunsmith job. That does not detract its value to me. It's an original barrel and an original action and it's a handy little rifle and shoots well with paper patch with little case prep needed and no boolit sizing so all's good.

[bydand]

If the barrel has an E on the knox form, it was updated to Enfield rifling
Metford rifling was designed for black powder and didn't hold up very well to cordite, hence most rifles were updated while in service

[303Guy]

So that's what the 'E' is for. It does have that. When was the change-over made to cordite? I have the idea the 1896 rifles were cordite, hense 'E'. I have two 1896's. I'm not sure who made the other one - I don't have it with me to look but it's not BSA&M. I think it just says L.E. I.