.310 Cadet frustrations.

[JeffinNZ]

Team.

I few months back one of our charitable members (thanks Euan) gave me a .310 Cadet. It has a lovely brand new BSA barrel and the action by Greener is crisp with a devastating trigger. Thing is, the wee rifle has been giving me fits. I can not achieve any decent level of accuracy with smokeless loads. Best is about 2 1/2 inches at 50m which is not minute of bunny in my books.

Boolit: I am using Jim's CBE 320-120 bullet and have cast in pure lead, 40-1 and clip on WW. 40-1 seems the best bet and the factory Kynoch I have is 6.8 BHN in comparison. My throat is approx .322 so the bullet is technically a shade small as it casts at .319-.320 depending on alloy.

Powders etc: I have tried sizing the cases, not sizing the cases, as cast boolits, bumped boolits, no wad, LDPE wad, Unqiue, Win Super Trap, Vectan A1, 2400, H4227. All a massive flop.

Today for a laugh I tried some black powder loads in sized cases with good neck tension and BEHOLD, accuracy. The load was 16gr Swiss 3Fg, LDPE wad, 40-1 boolit with a lot of lube. Wiping between shots at 25m she put three shots touching and a couple a wee spot wide (3/4 inch?) which I am sure was operator error. Way better than the smokeless.

SOOOOO.....why does the BP shoot and the smokeless won't? Is it the BP burn impulse? It is the BP is acting as its own filler/buffer?

Next step is to get a BP load that will shot without wiping. Will try a duplex. Which of the above smokeless powders should I duplex with?

[Mk42gunner]

Jeff before you get real excited, try your BP load at 50m. I have seen several loads that did okay at 25 yards go to pieces at 50.

Have you recovered any fired boolits? I am curious if the heel is expanding or not.

It may be a combination of heeled boolit and the boost from BP ignition making it work. From what I have read, most calibers that use heeled boolits work better with BP than smokeless. Of course, with that theory a .22 should not shoot, but we know they do.

Have you got any fast powder like Bullseye available? It might give a fast enough kick in the pants.

Robert

[leadman]

Have you tried a filler with smokeless?

[303Guy]

Do you have any powder slower than H4227? Lil'Gun might work (it's actually faster but produces lower pressure and a longer burn just like BP - maybe?). Compress the stuff in if necessary!

[JeffinNZ]

Not other powders. I don't want the extra inventory. Most reports are that Unique is the bee's knees but not thus far.

I do have a small amount of AS30N (Red Dot equivalent) so will try that also.

[herbert buckland]

If you can try some Trail Boss 4gr to 4.5 LA lube and SPPs I will be very suprised if you do not get very good acuracy with that bullet,I have never had very good result with AP 70 or AP 30 but others swear by it

[midnight]

I have been using 4759. Cartridges of the World said 10gr but 8.0gr is a casefull. It gives me 1200fps behind a 120gr RCBS bullet cast of the softest range lead I have. Can't recall the exact group size but I remember I thought it was extremely good at the time.

Bob

[curator]

Jeff,

Ross Siefried wrote an article on shooting the Cadet several years ago in Handloader. I too had been frustrated with my Cadets until I tried his load: 4.5 grains of Unique, CBE 120 grain boolit .321 diameter cast of air cooled wheel weight alloy. Soft wax gas check under boolit.

The soft wax gas check seems to make a difference as accuracy deteriorates after a couple of shots without it. Softer boolits were not as accurate nor were harder. Recovered boolits have wax check still on bases which show perfect expansion into the rifling. I tried using a paper disk between boolit base and wax check to see if it adhering to the base affected accuracy and they shot slightly better sticking on. Who would guess?

[303Guy]

But if all else fails and for the sake of science, perhaps you could get a 'little' of the stuff from someone just to try.

I like the sound of that soft was gas check idea. What exactly is 'soft wax'? Bees wax? The red stuff found on cheese?

[JeffinNZ]

I have some bees wax honey comb sheet at home and also a Lee Shaver lube extruder so can make wax discs of grease cookies. Will see how the duplex H4227/3Fg load goes and also the AS30N.

As an aside, last evening I put some of the boolits in my mini lathe and HPed them with a small center drill. Worked great. The 40 - 1 HPed like this will be devastating on small game once I get things sorted. The original RN boolit is not such a convincing killer on bunnies.

[303Guy]

Hey Jeff - my son in Christchurch is comming to my parts in a few weeks. I can send a sample of Lil'Gun down to you when he returns if you would like to try some. But I should warn you - it might work and then you'll be forced to add yet another powder to your inventory!:bigsmyl2:

[JeffinNZ]

Thanks Peter. I will let you know.

[JeffinNZ]

May just have found the answer to my problem.

Just tried a duplex load of 3gr H4227 under 12 Swiss 3Fg with a LDPE wad. 5 shots all clustered tight at 25m without wiping between shots! What's more the first shot from a clean barrel went into the group which is very unlike a BP load. The bore looked like I was shooting smokeless powder and was shiney and not matt as with 100% BP loads. Duplex rocks.

Also tried 16gr Swiss 3Fg with a grease cookie. Four shots were tight with 2,3 4 near clover leaf then the 5th went wide a couple of inches. Again, no wiping between shots. I might try again with a thin card wad between the bullet and grease cookie.

Last I tried 4.0gr of AS30N (ADI equivalent Red Dot). 25m accuracy just awful.

All in all, pretty darned happy. Prefectly happy to have a dedicated BP .310 but will do some more tests.

[curator]

I got the soft gas check material from "C-F Ventures" some years ago. It is sheets of red wax that looks and behaves like the dental impression wax. It doesn't melt in the bore to create lube but does seem to eliminate leading when used according to directions. I have also used it in .303 British plain base boolit loads with good results up to about 1400 fps

[10x]

It sounds like you should slug your bore.
You may want to try a bullet that is 0.002" larger than the current bullet.
One of the reasons that BP will shoot better than small volumes of Unique is that the Unique does not have the quick spike of pressure to bump up the bullet to fit the bore.
Have you measured the diameter of several recovered bullets that have not expanded on impact?
(lazy man's way of slugging the bore.)

[JeffinNZ]

CRACKED IT TODAY.

50m group as follows:

CBE 320 120 cast in 40-1
CCI small pistol primer
Partially sized case with neck tension
3.8gr H4227 (least a Lee Auto disc throws)
14.0gr Swiss 3Fg black powder
LDPE wad
1400fps
NO wiping/cleaning betweens shots.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2675.jpg

The high, right shot is the first from a clean barrel. The remaining four measure 1.25 inches.

Jim at CBE is sending me his latest .310 Cadet mould to evaluate. The CBE 323 125. The extra girth may allow me to use smokeless but I am more than happy with the duplex.

[iomskp]

I would still give trail boss a try, I had similar troubles with my 300 sherwood and I found trail boss to be the best for accuracy in my case.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have a fat throated 44-40 (.432) here in Peru with me. It defied accuracy until I put some boolits in my vice and squeezed then skinny little .429´s to about .435 . 50 yard accuracy went from barn door to large tin can. So I lo lapped my Winchester mold out to .433+ and now I have a 2"+ 50 yard can smasher.
I woud think your undersized 40-1 mix is simply bumping up to throat with the 3F loads. The explosive wack of BP is very fast so soft boolit bases give before the nose moves. Just like wacking them with a mallet.
I use COW in other fat throated rifles with a just too small boolit which helps.. but is a poor substitute for a over throat diameter boolet with smokeless.
Mike in Peru

[JeffinNZ]

I had a .380 Rook rifle for a while and in doing research on shooting heel bullets Harry O (.41 Long Colt guru) warned me off using a fill or such as it works as a cushion under the heel and stops it bumping up into the groove.

[303Guy]

Maybe, but I have two samples of boolits fired using AS30N in my pig gun, one with wheat bran filler the other without and the wheat bran filler one shows base peening while the other not. The wheat bran one also did not lose its paper patch at the muzzle.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5572_edited-1.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5574_edited.jpg

The wheat bran one also shows base cupping and the formation of a 'rim'. This principle might just work in favour of a heeled boolit. Worth a try. (Minus the patch).

I did not know just how quick the initial pressure rise with BP really is and seeing how it does not go too high would seem to me to make it an ideal powder for some applications.

[DrB]

Interesting pictures! Still trying to figure out that base cupping... were the loads identical other than the wheat bran?

Thanks for posting these...

Best regards,
DrB

[303Guy]

Yes, same powder charge, identical boolit.

The wheat bran would likely have raised the chamber pressure considerably.

[JeffinNZ]

HHHMMM. Alright. I'll try. I am a "regular" user of wheat bran.

[10x]

Maybe, but I have two samples of boolits fired using AS30N in my pig gun, one with wheat bran filler the other without and the wheat bran filler one shows base peening while the other not. The wheat bran one also did not lose its paper patch at the muzzle.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5572_edited-1.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5574_edited.jpg

The wheat bran one also shows base cupping and the formation of a 'rim'. This principle might just work in favour of a heeled boolit. Worth a try. (Minus the patch).

I did not know just how quick the initial pressure rise with BP really is and seeing how it does not go too high would seem to me to make it an ideal powder for some applications.

You recovered those bullets from pigs didn't you....

[DrB]

Yes, same powder charge, identical boolit.

The wheat bran would likely have raised the chamber pressure considerably.

Do you know the difference in muzzle velocity, and did you note any difference in fired primers that would suggest an increase in pressure?

Please take a look at my notion RE base cupping on the bullet base vs. accuracy sticky and let me know what you think?

[303Guy]

The pressure signs on the primer were too low to see any difference. I have not chronographed these loads.

I've had a look at your Sticky and posted a comment. Makes sense to me.

The boolits were not recovered from pigs, no. :mrgreen: I should be so lucky. But one day ..... Actually, these were loads I made for testing in my two-groove and I have used one to dispatch a dying goat. 141gr at around sonic velocities takes some stopping!

[10x]

The pressure signs on the primer were too low to see any difference. I have not chronographed these loads.

I've had a look at your Sticky and posted a comment. Makes sense to me.

The boolits were not recovered from pigs, no. :mrgreen: I should be so lucky. But one day ..... Actually, these were loads I made for testing in my two-groove and I have used one to dispatch a dying goat. 141gr at around sonic velocities takes some stopping!

200 grain (314299) will shoot the entire length of a mule deer (Texas heart shot) following the spine and breaking every rib on the way to stop just under the hide at the front of the animal. That is at 1400 fps and fired from 20 yards or so.
The bullet was pure wheel weight and acted like a solid - no expansion what so ever - it miked out very close to the same diameter as the bore slug.

[303Guy]

Holy Grail!:holysheep Wow!

Well then, my 206gr flat nose, soft-ish alloy at 1600fps should do OK on a pig. I'm not worried about hold together - they stay together in a firm but wet clay bank but do turn inside out. Thanks for that info.

Mind you, when I attempted to dispatch another still kicking goat I hit the leaf litter and mulch under its head and the 'blast' of impact threw its head violently to one side making me think I had hit it. (Scope had come loose).

[JeffinNZ]

Ok, so I tried the wheat bran. Here is the result:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2683.jpg

Stange though it may appear the group was not very good.

[10x]

Ok, so I tried the wheat bran. Here is the result:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2683.jpg

Stange though it may appear the group was not very good.

Ohhh precious brass....

I would have quit at the first one.
Did you check the bore after the first one?

I suspect this was a black powder load as well?
If so was it a compressed load? Or was it a really compressed load?

Or what powder were you using?

[JeffinNZ]

I didn't see it to begin with. The two cases with the scallops came out without my notice. It was the complete seperation that got my attention. Bore is fine. All is well.

[303Guy]

Holy Cow!

I wonder what the mechanism was? It seems the boolit grip on the interior of the case was enhanced. I wonder if this is what is causing the base cupping I see in my loads. Boolit bump up so severe? Or did the wheat bran grip the case interior by expanding against the boolit base? One can only speculate.

[JeffinNZ]

I like to think of it as a "post firing driving installation".......LOL.