cast and my blackhawk [Archive]

12DMAX

07-24-2011, 08:25 PM

Need a little guidance here. I'm new to cast boolits and the 45LC. I have a NM blackhawk with a barrel groove diameter of .449, throats are .452. Loading a 255 gr swcpb sized to .452 over 13gr of HS-6 with a med-heavy crimp. Getting a fair amount of leading on the cylinder face and down the barrel within 5 rounds. Caster told me those boolits were 12BHN and I should be fine with that powder and charge, anyone got any ideas?

subsonic

07-24-2011, 09:59 PM

Probably have a constriction in the bore at the frame. .449 sounds pretty tight. How did you get that measurement? May need to fire-lap to get good results.

12DMAX

07-24-2011, 10:15 PM

.449 sounds pretty tight. How did you get that measurement?

subsonic, I slugged barrel with a 50 cal round ball, micrometer and caliper both read .449

best i can tell it starts just after forcing cone and streaks the lands to the muzzle. Once ball was started into barrel it actually went pretty easy and smoothly,

Tom

btroj

07-24-2011, 10:24 PM

May well be thread choke. Mine did the same. Fire lapped it and all is good now.

white eagle

07-24-2011, 11:01 PM

sounds like very sound advice
firelpping when done correctly will solve the thread
constriction issues
I did a relatively light job on my colt and it has done wonders

12DMAX

07-24-2011, 11:09 PM

So .003 is to much restriction?

Tom

MtGun44

07-25-2011, 12:21 AM

randyrat

07-25-2011, 06:55 AM

Did you check your cylinder throats- are thay resricting the boolit before it reaches the forcing cone?.

How is your boolit seating process- Expander plug thick enough? Your not squeezing that plain base boolit down when you seat the boolit with tight brass.

subsonic

07-25-2011, 07:21 AM

I've never seen lead on a cylinder face before. Can anybody else help him with that?

My WAG would be excessive barrel to cylinder gap or too soft boolit base for the pressure?

subsonic

07-25-2011, 07:25 AM

44man

07-25-2011, 08:24 AM

Try this to compare muzzle diameter to breach. Drill a pilot hole in your roundball and screw in a wood screw so you can pull the ball after driving it a short diatance into the bore. Be careful not to dammage your muzzle crown with the screw or hammer!!!
I suspect a thread choke too. What I do is to lay a long piece of thick Micarta or hardwood on the recoil plate. I drop either brass rods or hardwood dowels in the barrel to the Micarta. Tap in the slug and use the Micarta to push the slug back out the muzzle. Need a film of oil in the bore.
Leading on the cylinder face might be a boolit way too soft and it is slumping, squirting lead. Common with the .38 and swaged boolits.

12DMAX

07-25-2011, 07:46 PM

Did you check your cylinder throats- are thay resricting the boolit before it reaches the forcing cone?.

randyrat: yes, i actually reslugged everything again and my throats are .452, bore I slugged 2x more and came up with .450. Boolits seem to seat with very little effort so i would say I am not smashing the base when seating.

I've never seen lead on a cylinder face before. Can anybody else help him with that?

My WAG would be excessive barrel to cylinder gap or too soft boolit base for the pressure?

sub: I believe you got it with soft boolit, I went and dropped my charge down 3gr's and my leading is MUCHO better, none at all on my cylinder maybe a very little down the bore.

Try this to compare muzzle diameter to breach. Drill a pilot hole in your roundball and screw in a wood screw so you can pull the ball after driving it a short diatance into the bore. Be careful not to dammage your muzzle crown with the screw or hammer!!!

sub: I actually did just that only with and egg sinker and the muzzle def. measures .450

Leading on the cylinder face might be a boolit way too soft and it is slumping, squirting lead.

44man: I def. think that is what was happening, I feel the 12BHN boolit was just to soft for that charge of HS-6.

What happened was the fella that casted these sent me the wrong order (partially my fault) I will just load these up for stump shooters.

Would any of you fellas like to recommend a nice load for these particular boolits? I will save the HS-6 for some harder boolits.

Do you all belive .450 is a little tight?

Thanks for all your help Guys!

subsonic

07-25-2011, 09:36 PM

I think .450 is tight. Most Rugers I've seen are .451" You might have the same problem I'm having with my 686? It's tight at the front sight and tight at the frame. Loose in between. I am going to try fire-lapping it. It will be my first attempt.

In theory, you could oven heat treat whatever boolits you have left, if they have enough of the right alloys in them so that they will heat treat. Would definitely require re-lubing and definitely be messy. Beeswax is flammable, so be careful.

I've had the best luck overall with slower powders like H110/296, AA9, and 2400. I've never used HS6 but I know it is in the "medium-slow" burning range. What other powders do you have? A lot of folks like powders like Unique, Universal, & Herco and I am playing with REX 3 (no longer available). All similar in being "medium" burning speed, and maybe a tad faster than HS6.

If you have Solo 1000 or 700-X, there's an article in this forum about those working well, but I haven't tried either yet. Some folks have had good luck with Red Dot and 231. Lots of powders out there that will work to some degree for some combination in some gun.

Check article in thread for some ideas:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=122230

Rico1950

07-25-2011, 10:29 PM

If you have some Red Dot, a 6-6.5 gr. load is nice.

btroj

07-25-2011, 10:44 PM

12DMAX

07-26-2011, 06:22 AM

.450 throats are a problem in my opinion. My 45 Colt BH had .449 throats and it leaded badly. I opened the throats to have snug fit with a .452 bullet and then fire lapped it lightly. Doesn't lead at all now.
Small throats along with thread choke are a recipe for leading.

btroj: My throats are .452, my barrel is what is slugging out at .450 at the muzzle.

I've got for powders:

Blue Dot
power pistol
800X
unique (Paper Cans from the 80's)
296

btroj

07-26-2011, 08:11 AM

The barrel is .450 at the muzzle, what is it under the frame threads? That is your problem area.
If your bullet comes thru the throats at .452 then gets sized by thread choke to .449 it is undersized for the remainder of the .450 barrel. Gas leaks by and you get leading.
Have you measured the sized bullets to verify that what is sized .452 actually is .452? Not all alloys come out the same size from every die. Since you mention the "caster" said they were 12 BHN I will assume you didn't size or lube them? What lube? I prefer something softer and gooey over a crayon type lube .

So many little factor come together to cause leading in many cases. In this situation I look at Ruger and a tendency towards thread choke. The 45 Colt barrels are worse than others as they have thinner barrel walls to resist thread choke. These factor can quickly combine with an even slightly undersized bullet to give bad leading. Poor lube only adds to the problem.

Measure the bullets to verify size. Fire lap the barrel to eliminate thread choke. I don't think your load was the problem. With good fit and good lube it should shoot without leading with about any safe load.

fishnbob

07-26-2011, 08:49 AM

How do you tell if you have thread choke when slugging the barrel? I slugged my RBH from the muzzle and got .4502" in 2 quadrants with one reading of .4498" in another. Can you feel the slug tighten up just before it comes out the forcing cone? I don't remember experiencing that. Is there a thread on firelapping somewhere? I may have to do that.

44man

07-26-2011, 09:05 AM

The problem is mechanical. Bore, lead hardness, etc.
HS-6 is a great powder and should give very good accuracy.
Like Bret, I hate BHN readings and prefer boolit toughness so it takes the twist.
Tight and loose spots in the bore can be a pain in the butt but fire lapping can cure it.
I use the LBT method but you can buy boolits with abrasive loading.
Rugers are tough and might need many fire lapping shots.

Capt Klutzz

07-26-2011, 03:33 PM

Ive been getting very good results with 9.5 - 10 grs of HS6 under a 255 Keith style LSWC from missouri. Been Shooting these out of both a TC contender in 45/410 with the choke removed as well as a Taurus Judge Snubby.

35Whelen

07-26-2011, 04:15 PM

The cylinder hand may also have a timing problem. If the cylinder is not exactly in line with the barrel forcing cone when the hammer falls you could be shaving the lead off the bullet causing the leading on the cylinder face. Just a thought, used to see that a lot with service revolvers when I was an armorer many years ago.

12DMAX

07-26-2011, 06:49 PM

The barrel is .450 at the muzzle, what is it under the frame threads? That is your problem area.
If your bullet comes thru the throats at .452 then gets sized by thread choke to .449 it is undersized for the remainder of the .450 barrel. Gas leaks by and you get leading.
Have you measured the sized bullets to verify that what is sized .452 actually is .452? Not all alloys come out the same size from every die. Since you mention the "caster" said they were 12 BHN I will assume you didn't size or lube them? What lube? I prefer something softer and gooey over a crayon type lube .

btroj: Good points my friend, I went to the bench and drove a .457 ball through the cone into the barrel 1" it mic'ed at .450

Yes i have measured several boolits and they do measure at .452. Lube is a synthetic lube.

The problem is mechanical. Bore, lead hardness, etc.

44man: After dropping my charge of 13 gr HS-6 down to 10 gr the leading is not even close to what i was getting at 13gr in fact it might be normal but i am brand new with this cast boolit thing and learn everyday.

The cylinder hand may also have a timing problem. If the cylinder is not exactly in line with the barrel forcing cone when the hammer falls you could be shaving the lead off the bullet causing the leading on the cylinder face. Just a thought, used to see that a lot with service revolvers when I was an armorer many years ago.

44man: That would be my luck with a brand new gun.

BCB

07-26-2011, 06:52 PM

Been watching this thread with interest as I have a NM Blackhawk 45LC…

I do get a bit of leading, but not much, at least by my thoughts…

I just measured the throats by pushing a .454 round ball through one of them…

It measures 0.4515”…

Phweeeee, that seems awfully tight?...

I would like to slug the bore, but I am SCARED to do so with the round ball…

I KNOW I will get it stuck part way down the bore…

I wonder what might be a minimum charge of say Bullseye to get that ball to exit the bore and still stop in a big bundle of old clothes at about 30’ across my garage…

I could then measure the bore…

Any thoughts…

Thanks…BCB

12DMAX

07-26-2011, 07:54 PM

I would like to slug the bore, but I am SCARED to do so with the round ball…

I KNOW I will get it stuck part way down the bore…

BCB: That .454 ball wont drive hard my friend, if you are a muzzleloader set that ball on your muzzle and use your bullet starter against it with the wood and smack it with your hand it will go, just use your ramrod and it will push through.

Where you at in Pa. oil city here

BCB

07-26-2011, 08:18 PM

BCB: That .454 ball wont drive hard my friend, if you are a muzzleloader set that ball on your muzzle and use your bullet starter against it with the wood and smack it with your hand it will go, just use your ramrod and it will push through.

Where you at in Pa. oil city here

Well, I might give it a try tomorrow after work...

I had a heck of a time getting it to go through the cylinder...

Not a muzzle loader hunter...

Clarion...

Thanks...BCB

12DMAX

07-26-2011, 08:29 PM

I had a heck of a time getting it to go through the cylinder...

Did you drop it in from the breech end and drive it?

Use a little oil

BCB

07-26-2011, 08:43 PM

Did you drop it in from the breech end and drive it?

Use a little oil

Yep, but I didn't use and oil or other lube...

williamwaco

07-26-2011, 09:02 PM

I have a similar (but different) problem with a New Model Blackhawk.

I got an email from Ruger just this week ( straight from the horse's mouth ) that their 45 colt throat diameter is .452 so your cylinder looks good.

The constriction of the bore at at the forcing cone is something I have seen several times. In my experience it occurs only in large caliber barrels. Their walls are typically not as thick as those of barrels of smaller calibers. I have been told by two manufacturers ( not including Ruger) that this happens when a barrel is screwed into the frame too far during fitting and it gets squeezed by the frame. When the bullet passes through the constriction it is swaged down and ther is no longer sufficient pressure to cause it to obturate and take the rifling again.

I returned both of my instances, one a .44 Special the other a .45 Colt. I returned both to the factories. ( Not Ruger ) The .45 came back with a new barrel. The .44 Special came back with an entirely new gun.

You really should contact Ruger. I believe they will ask you to return it.
Shipping it back will ba a LOT cheaper than paying a gunsmith to refit it and if my suspicion is correct, the barrel is not reparable. Firelapping may eliminate the symptoms but it will not actually "fix" the problem.

Rico1950

07-26-2011, 09:58 PM

Fire lapping will definately fix the problem of bore constriction. I've done it on a number of Rugers. Last was a 45 Colt NM Blhk, .450 cylinder throat ( sent to cylindersmith, great job). Bore was .451" ahead of the barrel frame constriction. Light charges of Red Dot with pure Pb boolits and Veral's lapping cmpd fixed it right up. You only want the boolit to just exit the barrel. You should be able to see the slug going downrange.

fishnbob

07-28-2011, 08:45 AM

How many shots did it take, Rico1950? And how much Red Dot?

44man

07-28-2011, 09:20 AM

Some double action revolvers do hold the cylinder tight with the hand.
Single actions do NOT and that is really best. You do need the play, too tight is no good.
Barrels need to be the exact same ID all the way through, no tight or loose spots.
Throats need to be a tiny bit larger then the groove to groove size. But many guns shoot just fine if throats are too large. They never will if too small.
Right now, the BFR revolvers have all had perfect throats and bores. I don't know about the new .44 Shorty but I suspect it might be a Ruger. We need to wait for measurements from owners.
Some revolvers have gross over size and out of round bores and I will not mention names. Cylinders are good but boolits flop around in the bores. Cylinder alignment is a huge problem with line boring.
Every single Ruger can be different and throats too small was common with the .45 Colt.
I don't think they use over size threads on the barrel like they used to. That would squish the barrel down. You can fix that.
What was going on with the S&W .460 with barrels flying off the guns? Were threads stripped or did rifling direction and torque unscrew them?
Barrels must be tight or locked some way.

12DMAX

08-06-2011, 09:17 AM

Update: I completely dried the bore and pushed another .457 ball through from the muzzle and noticed that 1 1/2 into the barrel the ball free fall's to about an inch in front of the forcing cone and then has to be drove out ( I didnt notice this before as i just suspected lube was making it easy) . I drove another into the muzzle and stopped just before the fall and pulled it back out the muzzle and mic'ed it at .450. I then drove one in from the breech end about an 1 1/2 and pulled it back out and mic'ed at .450. So I have .450 at both ends of the barrel and who knows what in the middle is this an example of thread constriction?

45r

08-06-2011, 11:54 AM

try 9 to 10 grains power pistol,it should shoot good somewhere in that weight range.my redhawk shoots great with 9.2 under the rcbs 270saa.

BCB

08-07-2011, 05:47 PM

Just thoroughly cleaned my Blackhawk...

I used a bronze brush with copper cleaner strands rapped around it...

I also used J&B Bore cleaner and I got the bore as clean if not cleaner than when it was new...

So, I did slug the bore with a .454" round ball and got the following measurements...

Throat 0.4515"
Bore 0.4420"
Rifling 0.4515"

Do these numbers seem about correct?...

I do get some leading, but I think the thorough cleaning with the J&B and the copper strands might have helped smooth the bore slightly...

I cleaned with the J&B until I could actually feel the heat on the barrel from the friction...

Yet, I still have not got the accuracy with this handgun that I think I should get...

I am shooting the 45-270-SAA sized to 0.454" and Caranuba Lube...

BCB

subsonic

08-07-2011, 05:57 PM

I had a real bad time getting the 270SAA to ahoot under 3"@ 25 yds with my gun. I tried everything - hardness, sizes, powders, loads, 3 different molds, etc. The Lee 452-255rf shoots much better with the first loads i tried.

Iron Mike Golf

08-08-2011, 12:15 AM

44man

08-11-2011, 03:21 PM

BCB, your boolit is too large at .454". Go to .452" or even .4515".
Throats and groove the same size should shoot.

BCB

08-11-2011, 05:29 PM

BCB, your boolit is too large at .454". Go to .452" or even .4515".
Throats and groove the same size should shoot.

I will give that a try...

I guess I was always under the philosophy that shooting them "as cast" was good...

Although 0.454" is not "as cast", but they are only sized down about a thousandth or so...

Thanks...BCB

12DMAX

08-11-2011, 10:41 PM

Got to the woods tonight and ran 20 rounds loaded right up 25gr 296 and had zero leading on my cylinder face, but +- 1 1/2" into the bore the leading streaked right up the rifilings to the muzzle. Restriction? Bullets to hard?

PacMan

08-12-2011, 06:49 AM

Restriction most likely.Bullet sized down at frame and gas escaping after the bullet moves into the larger bore dia.
I really think that you are going to continue to have problems until you firelap the barrel.

subsonic

08-12-2011, 09:00 AM

Clean your bore with a chore boy wrapped brush and then solvent patches. Take your pierce-type jag and a patch that fits tight in the bore. You might need 2 patches, but you want it to fit snug. Not where you have to drive the jag in, but tight enough that you can feel resiatance when you push it through the barrel. Start the jag in the muzzle with the cylinder removed. Close your eyes and slowly push the jag through the bore with your cleaning rod several times until the patch come out the breach end. If it gets harder to push at the frame, you have a restriction. You may notice loose/easy sections too. It should get a littlw easier to push until it pops out into the cylinder window on an ideal barrel.

subsonic

08-12-2011, 09:01 AM

Also, i think your boolits are too soft for a 25gr load of h110. Go back to 20 gr.

Everything points to needing to fire-lap.

12DMAX

08-12-2011, 04:45 PM

Dwight & subsonic:

I think you guys are right on the firelapping. I do however need to back up a bit and start over with the most fundemental thing, bullet size. I, like an eager beaver recieved my bullets from the caster and didnt even measure them assuming they were .452 but after 2 nights at the bench measuring they range from .450 to .452 with the majority at .451. So all loads from right now forward will be .452. Sub, I was shooting 20grs of 296 with great results but was told that load was very dangerous with 296 because of low density issues.

subsonic

08-12-2011, 07:56 PM

I know that a lot of people will disagree with me, but since there is data out there all the way down to 20,000 cup in the 2011 hodgon annual manual for H110, which is 296, draw your own conclusion.

They load it down to 8700 LUP in the .410. My 1985 winchester manual shows the image liked below.

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/Tornado6/?action=view&current=image.jpg

subsonic

08-12-2011, 08:02 PM

One other thing. If you dont feel comfy with that load of 296, use AA9 or 2400. They are both ball powders with burning speeds very close to 296/h110, but there is no warning associated with them. AA9 is cleaner than 2400.

subsonic

08-12-2011, 08:20 PM

I should add, both of those powders are "faster" than 296 and will need something lik 17 gr to get the same effect as 20gr of 296. 20 gr of AA9 is a max ruger only load for a 250 gr jacketed bullet.

NHlever

08-12-2011, 08:21 PM

Yep, WAY too much. Another alternative is to have a gunsmith unscrew the barrel and refit
it without the obviously huge over torque. If he removes the correct amount from the
barrel shoulder and resets it with red locktite, it will remove the constriction and you can
pull the barrel with gentle application of heat if you need to some time in the future.

Bill

Bill, sometimes because of the manufacturing process, the face of the Ruger revolver frames is slightly out of square with the barrel threaded hole. Your process would work fine if the gunsmith checks for this. My guess is that he wouuld find a shiny spot, or area on one side of the barrel shoulder, and perhaps on the frame. This puts a slight bend, or kink in the barrel that is measured as restriction. I have spoken to Ruger about this, but so far they haven't corrected the problem.