Loading by weight or volume????

[oldracer]

I have been trying both and it appears my loads seem to work best with the volume method. I have a digital scale and use a drop tube and here is how I have been doing the powder loads:

- In stall the drop tube on the powder measure.
- Load the powder measure which is same setting as last loads.
- Run several measures of powder to get the cavity equaled out.
- Measure the volume of the load several times and tweak the amount of powder to make 68gr by volume. Repeat several more times.
- Weigh the powder which is generally between 67.5gr and 68.5gr.
- Proceed to load 25% of the cases and then measure the volume again. The volume appears to be stable throughout the load process.
- With this powder volume/weight I am using a juice wad and newprint wad and compress the powder 0.310 to make my Lee 500gr pointed bullets set just off the lands which the guns seem to like.

Are there others loading by volume? I find the weight seems to change with relative humidity and if the powder sits in the measure for more than 30 minutes the charge weight creeps up slightly? I have been recording the humidity when loading and when it is 30% the powder weighs less than when it is 80%.

[felix]

Volume is the best method to obtain the same energy, but loading at the range by altering the volume is the only way to assure the same acceleration curve (accuracy) as the day/hour before. In a perfect ambient (A/Ced warehouse) the accuracy of target sized cartridges seemed to be more constant with volume changes of large granule powder like single-based sticks. This suggests crunching these kind of powders has little effect with regard to the weight and/or volume of successive charges. Naturally, this is not a guarantee of anything unless having been verified with the on-hand application which includes ambient. ... felix

[Chicken Thief]

IMHO by volume is BS, execpt from BP shotshell loading!

Is a volume of Fg the same as a volume of FFg, and if so is a volume of FFFg the same as a volume of FFFFg???
Is a volume of Goex the same as a volume of Elephant, or a volume of Swiss?

Weigh what you use and thats it!

As to shotshell loading the volume thing aplies to powder/shot ratio, and that only if the same granulation of BP is used!

Most if not all BP loaders compress so volume has no relevance. Load the veight you want and compress to the degree you have found works best.

Here's why it dont work:
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

BP is not just BP and cant be interchanged for one and other!

[felix]

You are not considering energy equivalents between the various grades of BP. Progression of burn with BP DEPENDS 100 percent on the proximity of the granules. NOT SO with smokeless. However, smokeless depends more so on ignition characteristics between the granule sizes, and that is somewhat converse from BP. BP typically fires or it doesn't in comparison. 100 percent density loads always work best with either powder type. ... felix

[hiram]

I load by weight.

68gr volume of 2f will fill a case with a different amount of powder of 68gr of 3f. 3f, being smaller in size, will settle closer(denser) because of smaller voids between the kernels of powder. Powder measure is set at 68 volume. You throw a 2f 68 gr charge, and then throw a 68gr charge of 3f, then weigh them. They may fill the same space, but the 3f charge will weigh more. That's more powder, more kaboom. The charges are equal in volume but not in weight.

[John Boy]

BP is not just BP and cant be interchanged for one and other! I'll agree. Here's why based on density of various powders (even difference between lots of same powder):
.902g/cc Goex Cartridge
.912 DuPont FFg
.919 KIK FFFg
.941 Goex Cowboy
.944 Goex FFFg 99JY02C
.925 Goex FFFg 03 46 07NO03B
.916 Goex FFFg 03 56 08NO02 B
.944 Meteor FFg
.970 Meteor FFFg
.972 Goex Express FFg
.978 Schuetzen FFFg
.992 KIK FFg
1.023 Swiss FFFg
1.026 DuPont Fg
1.027 Skirmish Fg
1.044 Swiss 1.5
1.049 Swiss FFg
100cc volume - pan weighed

Another source:
http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

[mustanggt]

I favor Swiss 3F in my 45/70. I've never tried anything else in it and don't intend to but I ordered a 74 Sharps in 50/90 and am open to KIK outside of Swiss. I've been following the discussions here and elsewhere concerning KIK as alot of guys are very impressed with it. I weigh each charge. Never done it by volume as I wasn't taught to do it that way. I'm happy with the way I was taught to do it and it works very well for me.

[cajun shooter]

This comes up so much that maybe we could have a sticky on it. With postings for both sides as it is a very divided opinion subject for sure. I have quite a few postings in the favor of weighing all my charges. Powders such as Swiss have a smaller grain size than Goex.
John Boy has shown this difference many times as he has the screens to show the accurate measure of the different powders. I have compared them under a microscope slide and it is very easy to see. What else stands out when one does microscopic testing is the more even the grains of Swiss powder which allows for two things to happen. First it is a much more even and smoother burn with the grains all being close in size. That is because as we all know, every BP burns from the outside in. If your grains are of varying size so will be your burn rate. That is why so many shooters take time to sock the powder that they use in serious shooting. Compare Swiss and Goex 2F to see of what I am speaking.

[montana_charlie]

There are two kinds of discussion on the weight vs. volume difference.
The classic argument is between those who do all of their loading with weighed charges as opposed to those who throw charges with a pocket type volumetric measure.

Yes ... with the pocket measure, any change in granulation, and most changes in brand of powder will result in a different amount of weight in the thrown charge. But, to the shooter who is not changing granulation or brand, volumetric measuring can be very consistent ... and consistency is the soul of accuracy.

And that leads into the discussion this thread's author is wanting to have. He has found his sweet load. He knows what it actually weighs. He used scale weight to develop it.

Now that all of the particulars have been worked out, he is wondering if it's necessary to continue to weigh each charge ... or if he can just trust the volume of powder provided by his bench-type measure.

Personally, I can't seem to get out of load development mode. I am either trying for a bit smaller group, or trying to get back to a tiny group from several sessions ago. So, I continue to weigh charges.
But, based on my own opinion and that of several other shooters who have played with it, I am convinced that oldracer can proceed with his plan to trust his measure.

I think that will turn out decent ammunition which will be dependably accurate ... unless he is involved in the high end of competition. Then, everything needs to be perfect.

Of course he knows that if he were to change powder, it would mean starting over again.
But his accuracy should not be degraded, and there certainly will be less of a safety issue than exists with smokeless ammunition loaded by volume.

CM

[41wyom]

Agree with Charlie. A friend of mine and I had this same conversation recently. He was at a benchrest match recently and whether is was the 100-yard or 200-yard stage, no one was weighing their powder charges. If anyone had a scale, it was in their trunk. He did see one guy double check his powder measure setting with a scale, before the match started, which is a good safety item to conduct. All day they will re-use the same cherished handful of cases, loading them over and over. But powder?...develop a repeatable operation of the powder measure and just throw the powder. When the 5-round groups are in the 1/10th inch center to center neighborhood, you have to believe that powder weight, and you know a powder measure has some variability that can't be eliminated, is not as high on the list of addressable concerns as other items.

Tom

[bigted]

cajun...you mentioned something that i may have read before but it caught my eye here..."socking powder" ?

would you or someone explain this for me and the rest that wonder as well about this procedure please?

[oldracer]

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many answers and they seem to be somewhat split. I loaded 40 cases this morning that were prepped from shooting Saturday. I decided to use the volume measure and weighed charges at the beginning (67.1gr), after 10 loads (68.1), after 30 (68.8gr) and after the last one (70.0gr). The volume in the case looked exactly the same for each throw and as I mentioned in my first post I think the weight change may be due to humidity? We have a "monsoonal moisture" movement into southern CA right now so humidity is high and that is the only reason I can think of??? The volumes by my volume measure, which is the same as I use for the muzzle loaders stayed exactly the same too.

NOW, since volume was constant and weight went UP, does that mean if I were weighing charges, I would be slightly closing the adjuster periodically to keep the weight constant. That I was doing before and is one of the reasons I went to volume.

As noted, maybe this should be a sticky?

[Southern Son]

cajun...you mentioned something that i may have read before but it caught my eye here..."socking powder" ?

would you or someone explain this for me and the rest that wonder as well about this procedure please?

"Socking" black powder is little more than sifting the powder to remove the "fines." As you get to the bottom of a can of powder, there are more fines in the powder. Fines will increse the loading density, effectively putting more powder into the case. This in itself would cause a slight increase in velocity, but if you factor in the fact that the smaller grains of powder burn faster, then the increase will be greater than first anticipated. Of course there is also the fact that if you change the loading density, you are changing the load, and therefor chaning the fouling from the firing of that load.

I believe that the term "socking" came from the people pouring the powder into a sock and using the sock to strain the fines out of the powder. I have used a fine strainer.

The need to "sock" the powder varies. I have sifted Wano FF and got about 200 grains of "fines" from a single can. But then I sifted some Wano PP, and got about 20 grains out of the can. I am told that it is not worth the time to sift Swiss powder, and some of the Goex grades.

[oldracer]

The "fines" are why I rotate the can a few times easily before I open it for use. Since I live on a hill and the house concrete slab where my powder locker sits does vibrate some from traffic and such I figure I'd mix it all back together before use.

[John Boy]

Ted, here are my previous posts about socking ...
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=3215890

The factual definition of fines is: small micron grains of loose graphite and grains of powder that are outside the the 'standard' vendors combination of powder grain sizes for the various grades of sporting powder: Fg to FFFFg
One has to remember also - graphite is an inert material and by it's self does not burn (explode). By removing the loose graphite 'fines', it aids the AVG Velocity and SD of a powder charge.

Socking is exactly what it is - put powder in a sock, rock it back and forth, then 'fines' stick to the threads of the sock ... a manual additional 'screening' process

Does every powder brand have fines? Yes, in varying amounts.
Can one see the fines when socking? Yes, look at your black hands and don't sock indoors.
Why? Blow your nose even the next day and look at the black spots in your snot

The concept of socking is done by every powder house ... screening the powder after the corning and before the polishing processes

PS: Racer, just rotating the can will never remove the loose graphite!

[John Boy]

Here are some examples of powders that have abnormal 'fines' that I determined by screening the powder with certified micron size (mesh) laboratory screens ... Bold percentages:
Goex Cowboy
20 mesh - 32.9% retained
30 mesh - 64.9% retained
Through - 2.2%

KIK FFFg (Lot Jan 2007)
12 Mesh - 00 %
14 Mesh - 00 %
20 Mesh - Trace
30 Mesh - 91 % Hold
40 Mesh - 07 %
Pass - 02 %

Goex 3Fg, 99JY20C
70.8% retained on a 30 mesh.
26.2% retained on a 40 mesh.
3.0% thru 40 mesh

Elephant 3Fg, S-10, 22/00
58.7% retained on a 30 mesh.
35.1% retained on a 40 mesh.
6.2% thru 40 mesh.

Diamondback FFFg 01-3309
20 mesh - 65.57% hold
30 mesh - 23.77% hold
40 mesh – 06.56% hold
50 mesh – 04.10% hold
60 mesh – Trace

[Don McDowell]

Both the Sharps and Remington catalogs from the 1870's stressed the importance of carefully weighed powder charges, and even went on to explain the difference in elevation required at different distances for even a 1 gr variation in powder charges......

[bigted]

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many answers and they seem to be somewhat split. I loaded 40 cases this morning that were prepped from shooting Saturday. I decided to use the volume measure and weighed charges at the beginning (67.1gr), after 10 loads (68.1), after 30 (68.8gr) and after the last one (70.0gr). The volume in the case looked exactly the same for each throw and as I mentioned in my first post I think the weight change may be due to humidity? We have a "monsoonal moisture" movement into southern CA right now so humidity is high and that is the only reason I can think of??? The volumes by my volume measure, which is the same as I use for the muzzle loaders stayed exactly the same too.

NOW, since volume was constant and weight went UP, does that mean if I were weighing charges, I would be slightly closing the adjuster periodically to keep the weight constant. That I was doing before and is one of the reasons I went to volume.

As noted, maybe this should be a sticky?



old racer...somehow your question turned into whether different granulation's and brands of powder weigh the same volume for volume....even tho this was not your original question .

i have been weighing all my loads kinda like charlie mentioned...cant seem to get of the experimentation thing. i will however compare accuracy in loading with the only difference being weighing the charges versus throwing the charges with my lee powder dippers. just what i needed...lol...another experiment!

the 'socking' method will have to wait however and i appreciate the explanation of such a method. not sure how much difference this would make in the relatively short ranges i shoot at tho. 300 yards is my longest range here-bouts without driving for a hundred miles. the military have a longer range i hear but have not gotten the gumption to go ask about it as yet.

this is very interesting and i seem to stand in the middle of the road on this one so far...srry...no opinion yet. will chime in with one as soon as i get to experiment with the comparison. however id say that if your volume loads do what you want...stay with your method.

[cajun shooter]

Southern Son, Socking is done at the opening of a new can of powder and not waiting until the end. If you wait till the end then you have fired many rounds that contain different grain sizes.
What John Boy did not point out was the size of the screens as they relate to powder grain size. No powder produces a very precise granulation size and therefore most all powders are a mix of different sizes. If you were to view a small amount under a microscope as I have you will see that the grains are indeed different size and shape. As you know all BP burns from the outside in. The closer the grain size and shape of these grains makes the burn more uniform and powerful. For the most part as this is not exact but the 20 mesh screen will hold 2F and the 30 mesh will hold 3F. The socking will also help remove the extra graphite which is put there to make the powder flow easy through your measure and flask. It slows the burning of the powder.
41 wyom, How do you think those measures were able to drop such precise charges time and time again? The most particular loaders in the world are those BR shooters. Each powder is purchased by the lots not 1or 2 cans at a time. All powder is socked and each measure is checked with not one but two scales. When you are loading a round of ammo for target shooting, hunting or any serious business that round is weighed or poured from a measure. That measure was not just set on what appeared to be a good setting. It was set with a measure!! When the buffalo hunters of old went out to collect the hides, they did not just dip into the keg and fill the case. They built dippers that were made and adjusted with scales. I have stated this many times and will again. Where do you think the names 45-70, 38-40, 32-20, 56-50 and so on came from? Show me a box of old ammo that states this ammo was loaded with a volume of powder. The boxes will say that these were loaded with 40 grains of powder. This volume thing did not show up until the advent of Pyrodex. It being a much more powerful powder than Black Powder the loading charts needed to be changed to avoid any accidents. That is were you have the first printing of load by volume. As so many other things in life, it has been stated so many times that it has now been called the truth.

[montana_charlie]

NOW, since volume was constant and weight went UP, does that mean if I were weighing charges, I would be slightly closing the adjuster periodically to keep the weight constant.
oldracer,
I don't think humidity can make enough change in a hopper-full of powder for you to see it change the weight of charges in a single sitting. If you poured dry powder in the hopper, then waited for a day or two to pass, a weight increase attributable to high humidity may be detectable.

When you fill the hopper, the powder is poured in ... much like powder dumped in a case is ... and is in an 'unsettled' state.
Tap the case on the bench a few times, and the internal level will drop, which means the charge inside there just got denser.

As you operate a powder measure with a fresh load of powder in it, the supply of powder will 'settle' due to the vibration. So, each charge falling into the metering cylinder is 'denser' than the last one. Denser charges are heavier charges.

If you could fully settle the powder supply before beginning to throw charges, the results (from start to finish) should be more uniform.

CM

[Lead pot]

I fill my case by volume.
Once Once I have that volume weigh that volume and load the rest of the cases by weight of that volume.
This keep my compression provided the cases all have the same inside volume.
All of my cases I use for match shooting have the same inside volume even tho the cases might not have the same weight. Sounds complicated eh?:smile:

[oldracer]

Thanks for the input everyone. As I noted in my earlier posts, I do run several charges and dump them back into the hopper and I'll try tapping the unit a bit more to see if I can get more settling in the powder that is in there. I am not sure if that is the issue as remember I said I was dropping the charges through a tube also so the powder gets unsettled until it gets into the case. As I noted also, no matter what the weight, the volume or level of powder in the case seems to remain very constant?

As for the different brands, well at the moment I am happy with Goex FF and plan to continue to use it as long as Coonies will sell it. I don't do any competing and I am not absolutely sure moving to another brand would change the accuracy of the rifles that much. This might be one of those things I'll experiment with some day?

[Lead pot]

Nothing wrong with Goex. I used it for many years with good results.

[kokomokid]

Lead pot, how do you get to brass with the same volume? I match brass by weight / length and dont get serious till about three fireings. I still have some with less volume even after going back and drop tube again to check myself. I put a baffle in the lowest point of my redding and it is very accurate weight or volume.

[oldracer]

The most accurate way to measure the case volume would be to leave the spent primers in and clean out the powder residue very well. Then use a beaker or other type of lab device that measures cc's and note each case right to the top. I would say alcohol would be better than water so there is no "volume" above the edge of the case due to surface tension. The alcohol would evaporate better also. Each case could be sorted by their volume and remember we are doing a comparison so the actual measurement units are not important.

I had thought of doing this but decoded against it for the time being as I also decided not to weigh the cases either. If I ever start competing and need that very small edge I might do it but since I am 66+ and have bad arthritis I figure that I am way behind the gun in shooting ability?