Ruger .45 ACP Blackhawk

[Wally]

Have a convertible. When shooting .45 ACP's w/ the .45 ACP cylinder I often have FTF incidents and was wondering if anyone else has this happen to them. I also have a two other Blackhawks in the .30 M-1 Carbine & a .357 Mag Convertible (w a 9mm cylinder)..no such problems. As all three calibers (9mm Luger/.45 ACP/ .30 M-1 Carbine) are rimless I do realize case length is critical--so I use little crimping with each--just a gentle crimp with a taper crimp die to remove the bell on the case.

[subsonic]

Headspace - sounds like too much of it. Brass is too short or something is off in cylinder fit. Try a different brand of ammo.

[Wally]

Headspace - sounds like too much of it. Brass is too short or something is off in cylinder fit. Try a different brand of ammo.

I think that you are correct. The ammo used shoots just fine in my Camp Carbine .45 ACP. I think the cylinder is set out a bit too far for the FP to make good contact...

[MtGun44]

Most .45 ACP brass is fairly short, I have never actually seen one that was at or above
the max length. Maybe the cyl is chambered too deep.

Possibly the firing pin is too short or there is a crud build up keeping it from moving
forward as much as it should. Remove the cyl and let the hammer down from full cock,
and keep the trigger pulled so the firing pin continues to protrude. Measure the amount
protuding with feeler gages - which is tricky, but you should be able to get a decent
approximation. Then do the next check.

Push a fired case into the clean cyl and then rotate it to the firing position and see what
feeler gage will slide in between the case head and frame. Should be only a few thousandths,
maybe .010 or so max, I don't know the correct value, but too much and the firing pin
will not reach the primer - excessive headspace. Not a safety issue in this design, but
a functional issue for sure.

See how much of the firing pin protrusion is being 'consumed' by the headspace and you will
see how much the max indent on a primer will be. Short firing pin protrusion or excessive
headspace seems like the issue - assuming that it is happening with factory ammo. Fire
a few rounds of factory and examine the primer dents. Should be deep and strong.

Bill

[Wally]

Most .45 ACP brass is fairly short, I have never actually seen one that was at or above
the max length. Maybe the cyl is chambered too deep.

Possibly the firing pin is too short or there is a crud build up keeping it from moving
forward as much as it should. Remove the cyl and let the hammer down from full cock,
and keep the trigger pulled so the firing pin continues to protrude. Measure the amount
protuding with feeler gages - which is tricky, but you should be able to get a decent
approximation. Then do the next check.

Push a fired case into the clean cyl and then rotate it to the firing position and see what
feeler gage will slide in between the case head and frame. Should be only a few thousandths,
maybe .010 or so max, I don't know the correct value, but too much and the firing pin
will not reach the primer - excessive headspace. Not a safety issue in this design, but
a functional issue for sure.

See how much of the firing pin protrusion is being 'consumed' by the headspace and you will
see how much the max indent on a primer will be. Short firing pin protrusion or excessive
headspace seems like the issue - assuming that it is happening with factory ammo. Fire
a few rounds of factory and examine the primer dents. Should be deep and strong.

Bill
Thank you,
I was thinking of the a feeler gauge as mentioned...then perhaps others can tell me what their's measures...if mine is too large a gap I think I'll have to contact Ruger. I don't have/use factory ammo. Also will blow out the FP recess--maybe it is gunked up

[smkummer]

My Colt 1917 revolver has this problem with some cases that are too short. Evidently the problem is as old as the gun. It has no problem when used with 1/2 or full moon clips.

[Poygan]

I have the opposite problem: my new model convertible .45 has never had a FTF with .45 acp. The carbine new model has been so hit and miss that I resort to .32-20 brass.

[Wally]

My Colt 1917 revolver has this problem with some cases that are too short. Evidently the problem is as old as the gun. It has no problem when used with 1/2 or full moon clips.

It would probably be a good idea if I get some of those clips... I have measured resized .45 ACP cases and they are all short, some quite a bit under the min length that they should be. Can it be that they actually shorten with use?

[Wally]

I have the opposite problem: my new model convertible .45 has never had a FTF with .45 acp. The carbine new model has been so hit and miss that I resort to .32-20 brass.

So far my .30 M-1 Carbine has never had a FTF...

[Wally]

[QUOTE=MtGun44;1340464]Most .45 ACP brass is fairly short, I have never actually seen one that was at or above
the max length. Maybe the cyl is chambered too deep.

Possibly the firing pin is too short or there is a crud build up keeping it from moving
forward as much as it should. Remove the cyl and let the hammer down from full cock,
and keep the trigger pulled so the firing pin continues to protrude. Measure the amount
protuding with feeler gages - which is tricky, but you should be able to get a decent
approximation. Then do the next check.

Push a fired case into the clean cyl and then rotate it to the firing position and see what
feeler gage will slide in between the case head and frame. Should be only a few thousandths,

Got out a feeler gauge---with cases .879" long I could pass a .025" through it tightly--with the .45 Colt a .014" would just fit--both have a cylinder gap of .009". No cases that I measured are the minimum length of .895"---some are .02" shorter. This must be the reason for the FTF..looks like I need some half moon clips...not sure where to get them... any ideas where I can?
maybe .010 or so max, I don't know the correct value, but too much and the firing pin

[theperfessor]

I don't think moon clips will work in a Ruger SA unless it has had the back of the cylinder cut to accommodate them. They were designed to allow for proper headspacing and ejection in a swing out DA revolver. They would prevent ejection unless the whole cylinder was removed.

If your chambers are cut too deep you may be able to have a few thousandths taken off the back of the cylinder ratchet and use a shim at the front. This might set the cylinder back enough to help your FTF situation.

[MT Gianni]

Try seating the bullet out a little until you find the oal that is right for your cylinder. Then mark your cylinder and see if all 6 are the same. You might need to load for this gun only and keep them separate from the rest of you acp loads but it should work.

[M-Tecs]

If you are using a roll crimp back it off some. I recommend switching to a taper crimp.

[MtGun44]

I think I would contact Ruger and ask what the correct dimension should be. ALL .45 ACP
brass is way shorter than the book value, this is entirely normal, really. I tend to think that
the .014 for .45 Colt and .025 for .45 ACP indicates too deep chambers or too short brass.

I will get mine out and do some measuring and get back to you.. . . . . . . .

OK, my BH shows .012 -.013 with a .895 case, .016 with a .890 case. Can't explain the
difference fully, but the primer looked like was protruding a hair on one. The firing pin
protrusion is more than the .035 leaf, maybe .005 or .008 more by eyeball. So call the
firing pin protrusion about .040 to 043.

I was surprised, I have not measured a .45 ACP case in decades. The ones I grabbed were
all running between .889 and .895. But BY MEMORY (!) they were much shorter decades ago.
Get some new brass and measure it, may make all the difference. I was pulling from a
can of brass that is all of recent manufacture, although mixed headstamp. It looks like to
me that the .45 ACP ammo makers have gotten a lot closer to the book dimensions recently,
whatever recently means in this context.

New brass is the first move, short brass could be the entire problem.

MT Gianni's approach should work, if your boolits can hold the case back.

Bill

[white eagle]

I agree use the boolit for headspace

[casterofboolits]

If the cylinder chambers are bored too deep, Ruger should (?) replace it with a correctly chambered cylinder. I don't expet to have to fix factory errors.

[Wally]

I think I would contact Ruger and ask what the correct dimension should be. ALL .45 ACP
brass is way shorter than the book value, this is entirely normal, really. I tend to think that
the .014 for .45 Colt and .025 for .45 ACP indicates too deep chambers or too short brass.

I will get mine out and do some measuring and get back to you.. . . . . . . .

OK, my BH shows .012 -.013 with a .895 case, .016 with a .890 case. Can't explain the
difference fully, but the primer looked like was protruding a hair on one. The firing pin
protrusion is more than the .035 leaf, maybe .005 or .008 more by eyeball. So call the
firing pin protrusion about .040 to 043.

I was surprised, I have not measured a .45 ACP case in decades. The ones I grabbed were
all running between .889 and .895. But BY MEMORY (!) they were much shorter decades ago.
Get some new brass and measure it, may make all the difference. I was pulling from a
can of brass that is all of recent manufacture, although mixed headstamp. It looks like to
me that the .45 ACP ammo makers have gotten a lot closer to the book dimensions recently,
whatever recently means in this context.

New brass is the first move, short brass could be the entire problem.

MT Gianni's approach should work, if your boolits can hold the case back.

Bill

Thank you--would seem that mine has twice the clearance. With a short case it is not surprising I get a FTF. I have wedged the FTF round with masking tape so it sticks out a bit more--usually it will then fire. Others have told me to use softer primers...I used to use WW and had far fewer FTFs with them...what I now use is Wolf.

[Wally]

If you are using a taper crimp back it off some. I recommend switching to a roll crimp.

I have been TCing and have tried so test rounds with no TC--makes no difference...I never did over TC any

[Wally]

If you are using a taper crimp back it off some. I recommend switching to a roll crimp.


Try seating the bullet out a little until you find the oal that is right for your cylinder. Then mark your cylinder and see if all 6 are the same. You might need to load for this gun only and keep them separate from the rest of you acp loads but it should work.

I will try that--thanks. As I use Lee TL bullets may not be as easy to do as with a regular .45 Cal CB....as I liek to lead it so the front case edge rests on lead and not on a shallow TL grease groove. But I shoot a lot of 454389's that aren't TL---it's with these round I have the most FTFs.

[Wally]

I don't think moon clips will work in a Ruger SA unless it has had the back of the cylinder cut to accommodate them. They were designed to allow for proper headspacing and ejection in a swing out DA revolver. They would prevent ejection unless the whole cylinder was removed.

If your chambers are cut too deep you may be able to have a few thousandths taken off the back of the cylinder ratchet and use a shim at the front. This might set the cylinder back enough to help your FTF situation.

I did think of that--the cylinder gap is at .009" and if I did that it'd be even bigger---I'd be better off sending it to Ruger...thanks for the suggestion.

[96wa6]

No slam, no harm meant.

a) You can't use moon clips (1/3, 1/2 or full) in the Ruger. Only in guns designed for them. Check out the gap on the back of a 1917 Colt or Smith, or a 1955(?) Target/25-2 Smith, then look at a Ruger or any other convertible (or view photos). You will see the gap at the back of the ACP guns is MUCH wider.

b) ACP doesn't headspace on the bullet (and shouldn't). It headspaces on the mouth. Bullet choice should NOT influence headspace or firing reliability. If you use your boolit to change headspace, that is a work-around/Rube Goldberg. Get the gun fixed or the ammo in spec, whichever is out of whack. Or if you seated them out too much and they're a tad bigger than the throats, that might be causing the headspace problem; hanging back a tad and the firing pin pushing them forward.

c) Therefore, NEVER roll-crimp .45 ACP. You risk FTFs. You MIGHT get away with it in an auto, if the extractor holds the case against the breechface. You will probably not get away with it in a wheelgun, at least not a whole cylinder's worth. In fact, Redding does not even MAKE a .45 ACP roll/profile crimp die (the only brand I have a catalog for here at work).

d) Here's my 2 centavos: It is probably a headspace issue. 1) .45 ACP brass often SHRINKS with repeated firings, not stretches, so there's one possibility. Measuring can also tell you if it's shrunk. Or if you lack measuring tools, if your brass is more than 5 or 6 shootings, consider fresher brass. 2) Also, since you reload, I suggest even less crimp. Hold one loaded round against another, side-by-side but head-to-tail. Look at the mouth area from the side, held up to a good light. If you see anything more than the TINIEST space (and you will see your crimp clearly), reduce the crimp. 3) Lastly, make sure your primers are fully seated. If not, the Firing Pin might just finish seating the primer.

If you continue to have FTFs, shoot a box of store-bought factory ammo. If it all goes Bang, then sorry, it's still your reloading components, dimensions or technique.

[Wally]

No slam, no harm meant.

a) You can't use moon clips (1/3, 1/2 or full) in the Ruger. Only in guns designed for them. Check out the gap on the back of a 1917 Colt or Smith, or a 1955(?) Target/25-2 Smith, then look at a Ruger or any other convertible (or view photos). You will see the gap at the back of the ACP guns is MUCH wider.

b) ACP doesn't headspace on the bullet (and shouldn't). It headspaces on the mouth. Bullet choice should NOT influence headspace or firing reliability. If you use your boolit to change headspace, that is a work-around/Rube Goldberg. Get the gun fixed or the ammo in spec, whichever is out of whack. Or if you seated them out too much and they're a tad bigger than the throats, that might be causing the headspace problem; hanging back a tad and the firing pin pushing them forward.

c) Therefore, NEVER roll-crimp .45 ACP. You risk FTFs. You MIGHT get away with it in an auto, if the extractor holds the case against the breechface. You will probably not get away with it in a wheelgun, at least not a whole cylinder's worth. In fact, Redding does not even MAKE a .45 ACP roll/profile crimp die (the only brand I have a catalog for here at work).

d) Here's my 2 centavos: It is probably a headspace issue. 1) .45 ACP brass often SHRINKS with repeated firings, not stretches, so there's one possibility. Measuring can also tell you if it's shrunk. Or if you lack measuring tools, if your brass is more than 5 or 6 shootings, consider fresher brass. 2) Also, since you reload, I suggest even less crimp. Hold one loaded round against another, side-by-side but head-to-tail. Look at the mouth area from the side, held up to a good light. If you see anything more than the TINIEST space (and you will see your crimp clearly), reduce the crimp. 3) Lastly, make sure your primers are fully seated. If not, the Firing Pin might just finish seating the primer.

If you continue to have FTFs, shoot a box of store-bought factory ammo. If it all goes Bang, then sorry, it's still your reloading components, dimensions or technique.


Thank you...all what you have stated makes sense.. the brass (WCC/TZZ) I have been using has been used for 5~10 loadings and none is close to the min length of .895" so it seems they have shrunk in size. I use just enough crimp to remove the bell and I measured it so it is the same as on a factory round (I have one for that purpose). I do seat the primers all the way. I may be able to use some "Jesus" clips that look like "C"s that are thin and might fit the rim cut out...will look into that. Also, I'd never roll crimp a round that head spaces on the case neck.

IMHO if I had brass that was at .898" in length I doubt I'd have any problems. But I have to use what I've got... Seems to me that WW primers have less FTF's than Wolf's...so I best use a softer primer next time.

I have both a steel & carbide RCBS sizer dies...from what I can determine the steel sizer lengthens the case by about 0.01 to 0.013" in length--that might help as well.

[MtGun44]

Actually, the reason you can get away with ANY short round in a 1911 is that the
firing pin max protrusion is like 1/2" or more. It WILL find the primer if it is in there anywhere. :-)

Buy a box of new Win ammo and shoot it or buy a batch of Starline new brass and I will bet you
are done with problems. You will have long enough brass to work.

Bill

[Wally]

Actually, the reason you can get away with ANY short round in a 1911 is that the
firing pin max protrusion is like 1/2" or more. It WILL find the primer if it is in there anywhere. :-)

Buy a box of new Win ammo and shoot it or buy a batch of Starline new brass and I will bet you
are done with problems. You will have long enough brass to work.

Bill

Thanks for the suggestion...more than likely doing so would solve the problem.

[Wally]

I returned the pistol to Ruger--they replaced a no. of parts on it including the hammer--I now have to try it out..hopefully it will shoot just fine now.

[Trey45]

Once you get your testing out of the way, you can have the ACP cylinder faced off enough to take 45 Auto rim brass, since the acp headspaces on the case mouth, you can still use 45ACP in this cylinder without issue.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=611&pictureid=4419

45 bucks for the machine work, and it opened up a whole new cartridge for me to play with. Well worth it if you ask me.

[Reg]

Had one of these a few years back and had plenty of problems. Have several other Ruger convertibles and had no issues with them.
What I found was that EVERY aspect of that reloaded shell must be perfect. Got a Wilson gage and as long as the reloaded shell fell withing the limits of the Wilson gage it would work and the gun would properly function. This was all diameters, length, a perfect crimp, everything. Even found that some bullet designs, I think because of crimping groove dimensions, would not work.
Now this is the kind of ammunition we are supposest to be making all the time and I think most of us do. The 45 ACP has great popularity not only do to it's preformance but also due to the fact there are literally tons of good cheap empty casings out there and what is cheap, we tend to shoot a lot of. These casings have been made by about everyone in the world capable of making casings and some don't tend to let a few thousands get in the way and unless you are shooting a very finely set up and tuned target gun, you never notice these very minor differences. Even a top of the line 1911 clone will digest about anything within reason but for some reason it must be that Ruger, at least in my case, set it up so unless all was absolutely perfect anything and everything could and did go wrong.
It was the only Ruger I ever gladly parted ways with. Too fussy, too much trouble.

Wally,
If your cylinder gap is .009-- thats way too much. Not sure what Ruger reccomends but I think a call into the factory would be in order. Even if you do get 100 percent ignition, that gap will effect accuracy to some degree.


:brokenima

[Wally]

Had one of these a few years back and had plenty of problems. Have several other Ruger convertibles and had no issues with them.
What I found was that EVERY aspect of that reloaded shell must be perfect. Got a Wilson gage and as long as the reloaded shell fell withing the limits of the Wilson gage it would work and the gun would properly function. This was all diameters, length, a perfect crimp, everything. Even found that some bullet designs, I think because of crimping groove dimensions, would not work.
Now this is the kind of ammunition we are supposest to be making all the time and I think most of us do. The 45 ACP has great popularity not only do to it's preformance but also due to the fact there are literally tons of good cheap empty casings out there and what is cheap, we tend to shoot a lot of. These casings have been made by about everyone in the world capable of making casings and some don't tend to let a few thousands get in the way and unless you are shooting a very finely set up and tuned target gun, you never notice these very minor differences. Even a top of the line 1911 clone will digest about anything within reason but for some reason it must be that Ruger, at least in my case, set it up so unless all was absolutely perfect anything and everything could and did go wrong.
It was the only Ruger I ever gladly parted ways with. Too fussy, too much trouble.

Wally,
If your cylinder gap is .009-- thats way too much. Not sure what Ruger reccomends but I think a call into the factory would be in order. Even if you do get 100 percent ignition, that gap will effect accuracy to some degree.


:brokenima

It is back from NH and I will test it out later this week...all maybe well. I did not check the cylinder gap after it was overhauled. We shall see. Thanks for the info... It shoots the .45 ACP quite accurately so to me it is worth a bit of trouble.

[Multigunner]

I've noticed that revolvers having a cylinder much longer than necessary for the cartridge its chambered for are less effected by a large cylinder gap.
With a long free bore travel in the chamber mouth the pistol cartridge has time to accellerate the bullet much more before it reaches the gap, giving more consistent velocity than a cylinder with throats not much if any longer than the bullet itself.

[Char-Gar]

I have two Ruger SA with 45 Colt and 45 ACP Cylinders and have never had a failure to fire with either when using the ACP cylinder.

I would be interested in knowing what kind of ammo you are using, the type of primers and if the pistol has modified or replaced springs.

I have three Smith and Wesson and one Colt DA in 45 ACP and don't have problems with any of them failing to fire.

It is possible, the Ruger made a boo-boo, but more likely it is the ammo, primer or strength of the hammer strike.

[Wally]

I have two Ruger SA with 45 Colt and 45 ACP Cylinders and have never had a failure to fire with either when using the ACP cylinder.

I would be interested in knowing what kind of ammo you are using, the type of primers and if the pistol has modified or replaced springs.

I have three Smith and Wesson and one Colt DA in 45 ACP and don't have problems with any of them failing to fire.

It is possible, the Ruger made a boo-boo, but more likely it is the ammo, primer or strength of the hammer strike.

Handloads with cast bullets. The ammo I've loaded shoots fine in a a Marlin camp Carbine..never had a FTF in it. On occassion some handloaded .45 Colt's have also FTF... As mentioned, a few years back Ruger replaced the cylinders and that's when the problem started for me.

[NHlever]

A few years ago I heard that some Ruger 45 ACP cylinders got out of the plant that were cut too deep. I would send it in to Ruger, and get that checked. Call ahead, and they will probably send you a postage paid carton to send it in. The cylinders are made on much more accurate eqipment these days and shold be much better.

[Wally]

A few years ago I heard that some Ruger 45 ACP cylinders got out of the plant that were cut too deep. I would send it in to Ruger, and get that checked. Call ahead, and they will probably send you a postage paid carton to send it in. The cylinders are made on much more accurate eqipment these days and shold be much better.

They would not send a postage paid carton--I shipped to them and I have it back now..will test it out on Friday.

[Wally]

Ruger fixed my .45 Caliber Blackhawk...it now fires all reloaded .45 ACP's that I have shot in it...looks as if the firing pin protrudes out by an additional 0.5mm and that solved the probem.

[MtGun44]

Good news!

Bill

[Wally]

Good news!

Bill

It surely is....thanks...

[Iron Mike Golf]

It was not mentioned, so, just to cover the bases, the engraved numbers on the .45 ACP cylinder match up to the frame, right?

[Wally]

It was not mentioned, so, just to cover the bases, the engraved numbers on the .45 ACP cylinder match up to the frame, right?

Yes, they sure did.