Handgun Stopping power

[Boz330]

I found this interesting.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2745992/posts

Bob

[white eagle]

food for thought

[MtGun44]

Interesting, and I don't have a lot of disagreement with him. 1) Have a gun. 2) Hit the
torso or head with it 3) Repeat #2 as required. 4) carry the most powerful gun that you
can, given your personal needs.

Probably THE most profound part is that "all handguns suck" at stopping power compared
to rifles. Yep. I always have said that anyone (like in the movies) going into a fight that
doesn't go and fetch a rifle is absolutely out of his mind. Hits are far easier, effective range
is far greater and stopping power is far higher. ALL much better.

OTOH, they are really unhandy to carry down to the McDonalds, but it is easy with a .45 ACP
on my hip. The rifles scare the chickens, too.

Bill

[Groo]

Groo here
I believe that some things are clear,,, Hits count ,,, Good hits count more,,,
Most of us train for double taps [ from the high number of 2 hit stops ]
High cap autos shoot more shots,,, and last "Sometimes It's Not Your Day".

[-06]

Did not see a significant difference in calibers in most categories. Seems accurate placement is far more important than size of round. Any projectile will take one out if put in the right place. A bud got it with a 22 rf to the heart. Another was hit 14 times before getting hit in the hip joint and falling.

[revolvergeek]

Very interesting read. Thanks for posting that.

[GabbyM]

Author noted his belief the use of ball ammo in 9mm as a reason for it’s poorer than expected showing. I’m more inclined to believe it’s the well documented spray and pray mentality of officers and gangsters carrying fifteen shot guns. Resulting in poor hits.

Also think the 44 mag and 45 auto would do better if not for the misconception of so many that all you need do is hit a man anywhere with the big gun and they’ll go down.

[subsonic]

Seems pretty obvious to me what to do if you need someone to stop RIGHT NOW:
"Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation."

[nicholst55]

I've read anecdotal accounts of well-trained special ops troops - people who CAN shoot very well - having piss-poor results with 9mm Ball ammo. One account from Desert Storm involved a Navy SEAL and an Iraqi soldier; the SEAL had both hands full of surveillance equipment that he was going to emplace, and walked up on an Iraqi. The SEAL's MP5 was slung across his back, and he had to rely on his Sig P226. It reportedly took all 15 rounds in the mag to put the Iraqi on the ground.

On the plus side, high performance ammo like Hydra-Shok is almost as effective in 9mm as it is in .45 ACP.

And if there are rules for gunfighting, #1 would be to bring a gun, #2 would be to bring a rifle or shotgun, as Dan stated above. That makes me chuckle while watching TV when I see the hero enter a building full of bad guys, and he and his team are all carrying pistols.

[telebasher]

Interesting to be sure, I wonder how the Taurus 410/ slug revolvers will fare in real life as intended. That might be really interesting!

[tek4260]

Interesting to be sure, I wonder how the Taurus 410/ slug revolvers will fare in real life as intended. That might be really interesting!

410 slugs are probably pretty anemic from a Judge. I think they are around 1700fps from a shotgun and are only around 90gr or so.

http://mcb-homis.com/judge/

Around 1300fps per the link above.

[Multigunner]

Author noted his belief the use of ball ammo in 9mm as a reason for it’s poorer than expected showing. I’m more inclined to believe it’s the well documented spray and pray mentality of officers and gangsters carrying fifteen shot guns. Resulting in poor hits.
The 9mm picked up the rep for so-so stopping power before WW2, I think mainly due to the switch from truncated cone flat point bullets to the common rounded nose FMJ. I think the Germans didn't fully switch over till mid WW1.
I once ran across some cupro nickel jacketed truncated cone bullet ammo, that might have been Italian SMG ammo. The bullet had much the same profile as that of the SuperVel ammo I was using at the time.




Also think the 44 mag and 45 auto would do better if not for the misconception of so many that all you need do is hit a man anywhere with the big gun and they’ll go down.
Depends on the man. Someone who has it in their mind that any bullet wound is fatal can drop dead on the spot from a minor wound.
Some footpad who isn't quite so desperate to make your money his will as like as not run at first sight of a gun, no shots fired.
Then theres the Moro. They could absorb multiple hits from a .30-40 Krag and still take out their intended victim while blood pumped from dozens of holes like water from a garden hose.

Only certain way to stop any attacker is to cut off the nerve impulses. A spine breaking shot can't be shrugged off no matter how doped or fanatical the subject.

On rare occasions men have taken a pistol bullet in the brain and continued to fight. A powerful magnum that clears out the brain pan would certainly do a better job.
A sniper once told me that he'd shot an NVA in the head, blowing out most of the brain, and the body walked forwards firing his AK then turned in a tight circle firing till the magazine was empty. The body stayed on its feet for several more seconds stumbling along. The sniper said he then always aimed at the neck instead of the head. If the neck is broken it doesn't matter if it takes the subject an hour to die, the victim is going nowhere under his own power and won't be able to speak or shout an alarm.

[GabbyM]

Look at the incapacitation chart. Note the pink line actual one shot incapacitation. 22 , 380, 357 and 44 tie while 32 acp beating them all. That proves it’s not all abut the size of the gun.

[44man]

It is always the bullet---always, always. The wrong bullet will not put a man or animal down right off.
To compare calibers only with all different bullets in each is nothing but a waste of time.

[pdawg_shooter]

The brain stem, the junction between the brain and spinal cord is the only for sure one shot stop. If you are good, close, or lucky, the triangle made by the bridge of the nose and the corners of the mouth works every time.

[Ziptar]

It just proves the point, You don't stop what you don't hit. So it doesn't matter what you shoot, what matters is that you practice, practice practice and hit what you are aiming at.

Caliber and bullet doesn't really matter with two legged critters.


And if there are rules for gunfighting, #1 would be to bring a gun, #2 would be to bring a rifle or shotgun, as Dan stated above. That makes me chuckle while watching TV when I see the hero enter a building full of bad guys, and he and his team are all carrying pistols.

+1 with the addition of, even if that rifle is just a pistol caliber carbine.

[NoZombies]

Where's Molly? He had a whole long thread going about the .32 as a man stopper. I'm sure he'd appreciate the statistics in that link

[DrB]

I thought an interesting implication from this and similar studies is that if you missed completely or were firing a cap gun the "one shot stop" would not be zero in reality -- it's just that the way they've defined their stopping power metric they throw out any data that would illustrate this.

All of us hunters know that without a CNS direct hit or indirect CNS effect (something like clipping a vertebrae, or hydrostatic shock in the large vessels of the neck to the brain) there is no such thing as instant incapacitation. I've shot many deer and pigs through the heart with a high powered 30 caliber rifle and they still typically run fifty yards or more with the heart shot out (well, the pigs typically don't make it anywhere near that far, but you get the point).

Americans who've been watching movies all their lives expect to get shot and die/fall down. A significant number of folks in these statistics just stop when shot or shot at -- it doesn't have anything necessarily to do with physiological incapacitation from trauma, just a psychological unwillingness to persist. The anecdotal evidence about folks hopped up on hallucinogenic drugs, fanatics (phillipine wars, etc), or elite troops trained to keep going at all cost suggests a far different story, IMHO.

I disagree with the folks saying rifle vs. pistol, or bullet or velocity characteristics don't matter... they do matter in the instances where the incapacitation of the thing shot is physiological and not psychological. There is no question that a 30 cal 180 grain explosively expanding ballistic tip flying at 3000 fps is going to have more physical terminal effect than a 32 caliber fmj ball round going at 1200 fps. If the shot is CNS and penetrates sufficiently, there may be no significant difference between the two. Otherwise, there is likely to be a very, very great deal of difference in the physiological capacity to incapacitate a person in a short period of time.

If you get a fellow who mentally says "Argh! I'm shot! I'm going to fall down!" when they see a gun pointed in their direction and it goes BANG, that's one thing. If your assailant is single-mindedly determined to kill you and prepared to ignore any physical damage to themselves, then you are in a whole different ballgame.

Best regards,
DrB

[DrB]

works every time.

If you have adequate straight penetration.... :)

[Echo]

I've read anecdotal accounts of well-trained special ops troops - people who CAN shoot very well - having piss-poor results with 9mm Ball ammo. One account from Desert Storm involved a Navy SEAL and an Iraqi soldier; the SEAL had both hands full of surveillance equipment that he was going to emplace, and walked up on an Iraqi. The SEAL's MP5 was slung across his back, and he had to rely on his Sig P226. It reportedly took all 15 rounds in the mag to put the Iraqi on the ground.



I remember reading an account of a South African woman rancher. She was alone in the house, the men being out at roundup, when a Mau Mau tried to break in her french doors. She reached down and picked up her Sten, and the MM turned and left. As he departed, the woman put the magazine full into his back - and he continued his rapid departure. Seems that he probably was wearing about 12-14 overcoats as armor - and it worked. Results may have been different if she had a Thompson...

[jwp475]

Without the wound channel size, depth of penetration and the exact shot location not much is gained by such data IMHO

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't have anything meanigful to add to this discussion , however after reading all the posts I feel compelled to add my .02.

First: I have no first hand experience in shooting people.

Second: I have lots of training on how to shoot people.

I know that many first shots are not killing people, and I know some do.

The one thing I do know for sure is, if you hit someone with any bullet from any gun it MAY kill them, however it will ruin their day for sure!

I have stated many times that it is more important to hit the guy, than it is to shoot a powerful gun.

We are trained at Frontsight to hit multiple targets once first, and then go back and hit them again as needed. The idea is to make them hurt alot even if you don't kill them, and that makes them less likely to hurt you before you get back to killing them permanently.

A hit in the hand with a .22 is better than a miss with a high powered rifle.

Misses don't count! period.


Randy

[jameslovesjammie]

Regardless of interpretation of the data...the data itself is pretty darn fascinating to look at.

[GabbyM]

A 44 magnum at 25 yards is less likely to deliver a one shot kill than a 32 acp at press fit against the skin contact shot. Just my opinion.

Different type guns are used in different type situations. Also carried by different type people. For instance. There is a huge difference in the level of violence a Mexican drug cartel hit man brings to the fight with his 32 acp than a soccer mom with her 38 snub nose.

I bought me a 380 acp yesterday. Was a 32 next to it that I know would be more fun. But we already have 380 in the family and I just could not see more dies and brass in the pile.

[GabbyM]

PS

I wonder how rifles would do at six inches nose to nose.
On a moonless night.

[Boz330]

I posted this because I thought that it was interesting. The guy worked with the numbers he had and broke them down the best he could. Is it absolute, NO, and he stated that.

On a side note I was friends several years back with a doctor that did his residency in the emergency room at University hospital. This is the hospital that all gunshot wounds in the city of Louisville go to. He told me that any torso gunshot wound from the .380 down even through the heart was usually savable if they arrived alive. Whole different story with a 357, 9MM or the 40s.

Funny story; he had a drug dealer brought in one night that had been in an auto accident and they had him strapped to a back board. They X-rayed him and when the X-rays came out for him to read there was a Mac-10 in the small of the guys back.:shock:

Bob

[pdawg_shooter]

I think a lot of Jeff Cooper. His 40/200/1000 made a lot of sense to me. You want to depend on your 32 thats fine with me. I will stick to my 45s. I want large diameter with a flat nose to destroy tissue, and enough weight to give full penetration. You leak more blood from two holes than one. I want to shatter bones, not just break them. Shatter the pelvis and the gomer is going down.

[cajun shooter]

I read the Marshal report when it first came out as all cop firearms instructors did at the time. When younger I put much stock in Ayob stories until I had some experience that did not quite line up with his. As far as to what caliber is used to kill most people it is the 22LR. The shots at the base of the neck work quite well for all the mob, Drug Cartel hits. I read where a few of you stated that if you do the double tap correctly then the bad guy will fall. I have seen the Louisiana PPC Top shooter miss from 7 yards when the bullets were flying all over the damn place. True enough that your training will help but your pucker factor will put some holes in it. The first thing that your mind tells you after you shoot at someone is "THAT GUY IS SUPPOSED TO FALL BECAUSE I SHOT HIM". Don't happen that way folks. My partner in Narcotics Division told a suspect one night that was across the hood of our unit; That man there is the firearms instructor and he will tell you that I'm not the best shot. But being that the the barrel of my 357 magnum is screwed into your left ear he will also tell you that I seldom miss from this distance. All fighting ceased with that statement. The FBI Miami shootout is a good case in point and is still used in training today. Two felons who received several what the doctors called non- survivable wounds killed two agents and wounded 3 others after they were dead on their feet from multiple 9mm wounds. I could go on with two more that I had involvement in and first hand knowledge about what happened but I will not. My point is that a person who writes stories for a living or a lab technician can't cover the points to say WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE. If you have room to move then carry a shotgun. If you have to carry a handgun then make sure that you can empty the cylinder or magazine into what target you may have to shoot. Become so conditioned that it all comes to you with out a single thought about what to do next.

[44man]

Had a White House security type here once. Glock on the hip, puffed up with importance.
He set a 10 yard target and kind of sprayed the landscape.
My friend asked to try his gun and rapid fire, poked out the center spot.
Never seen the man again! [smilie=l: