What is a Good AR in .223

[terryt]

Hi:

I had a Colt M-16 just before I got out of the Marine Corps in 1967. Had an M-14 over in Nam. The Colt was not that good.
I see there are quite a few out there today. Who is a good maker in a price range of $ 700.00 to $ 1000.00? I would like an accurate rifle but do not plan on shooting matches. I like the Red-Dot sights and would like to know what a good one at a reasonable price. Any and all help would be very must appreciated.

Thanks,

Terryt

[David2011]

One with a good trigger, or plan on upgrading the trigger. What do you want to do with it? Prairie dogs at 600 yards would scream for a 24" bull barrel with a free float handguard, flat top to accomodate a high power scope and a good bipod. That would be a really heavy rifle to tote around in the hills. For home defense, plinking or just to own one, something more like an M-4 may appeal to you. Bushmaster has an excellent reputation. DPMS and Olympic make decent guns at decent prices. Rock River has a great reputation fortheir 2 stage match triggers. I think most internet badmouthing is from people who don't own or have never even handled a particular brand. Sabre Defense makes some nice rifles but the price gets stiffer. I would trust anything Les Baer makes but guns like LaRUe, Baer and Wilson are going to be top dollar production guns. Many ARs have 5.56 NATO spec chambers and will shoot 5.56 and .223. Be sure to find out if the rifle that you like has a .223 or 5.56 chamber. Most of the more accurate guns will have .223 chambers. Let us know what you intend to do with it and we can probably as a community point you in a good direction.

David

[Lee W]

I am a Spike's fan.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html

These guys are very good too:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bravo-Company-Rifle-Carbine-M4-AR15-M16-s/140.htm

[Combat Diver]

Would also suggest Smith and Wesson and Double Star. If you want to add a red dot than suggest a flat top upper. You still have the option of adding a detachable carrying handle or Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS). Depending on your size you might find an adjustable length stock more suitable then the fixed A2 stock. Good luck with your search and thanks for your service from another generation.


CD

[Ed in North Texas]

I'll second the Rock River recommendation. I have one in 6.8 SPC and one in .223. Both M4 configuration - A3 (flat top upper receiver) with detachable carry handle/rear sight and CAR stock. If you plan on having young shooters using the rifle, I'd recommend the CAR stock. Fully extended it fits me and fully closed it works for a 9 year old Grandson who is on the small side, the other Grandsons fall somewhere between us or with me.

RVN '65-66

[txbirdman]

I have a S&W ORC that I like. Shoots about 1.5 MOA with most anything. There's a chart on AR15.com that some use to evaluate various AR's. LMT; Colt; and Spikes are well thought of by those guys. My ORC has all the features I wanted and was fairly inexpensive for an AR (about $700)IIRC.

[BoolitSchuuter]

Would also suggest Smith and Wesson and Double Star. If you want to add a red dot than suggest a flat top upper. You still have the option of adding a detachable carrying handle or Back Up Iron Sight (BUIS). Depending on your size you might find an adjustable length stock more suitable then the fixed A2 stock. Good luck with your search and thanks for your service from another generation.


CD
+1 on the S&W.
Just picked up an M&P 15 Sportical (A3 upper, no fwd assist, no dust cover) for under 600$. I added a quad rail fore end, Aim point clone, and changed out the sights for a set of YHM flip ups. Added several other goodies as well. Sportical to Tacticool Zombie stopper in under 1000$ [smilie=w: If the goal is to build one on a frugal budget, it is possible to kit bash one in an M4 config for right at 800$.
Hey Combat Diver, THANK YOU for your service.
I just gotta ask, where does a combat diver swim in a sandbox?:veryconfu

[Jack Stanley]

Plus one to what Combat Driver said , I have seen several fellas put optics on the handle of the AR and it never seems to work as well as using a flat top reciever . My older brother has his carbine setup this way and it is fine for combat targets close but precise shot placement at varying distance is going to take more practice than he is likely to do .

His son has an Eotech mounted on a forward rail and it does OK but I've never seen him shoot farther than thirty yards or so with it .

My "service rifle" is a standard rifle and no optics but has a Jewel trigger and heavy barrel . It does right well for itself and my old eyes just don't do it justice anymore . The three rifles mentioned are all Colt but I have friends with Rock River and Armalite that never miss a beat .

If you want accuracy , I have seen purpose built flat tops built that will put a magazine full into a very small group at a very quick pace . I'm not sure if they would fit your price tag though , the last one I saw built was thirteen hundred bucks .

Jack

[Moonie]

They really are simple to build, plus you save the $200 fee the gubmint takes for a complete rifle. If you insist on purchasing a complete rifle in 5.56/.223 I would suggest any of the ones mentioned above.

If you want one in 6.8 SPC I would suggest either ARP (AR Performance) or where I got my barrel, Bison.

[Ed in North Texas]

They really are simple to build, plus you save the $200 fee the gubmint takes for a complete rifle. If you insist on purchasing a complete rifle in 5.56/.223 I would suggest any of the ones mentioned above.

If you want one in 6.8 SPC I would suggest either ARP (AR Performance) or where I got my barrel, Bison.

I'm sorry, what $200.00 fee is that?

[NickSS]

I have the ARs one made by Olympic Arms, one from DPMS and one fromBushmaster. They all shoot about the same giving me 1 to 1.5 inch groups from a bench rest when I am doing my part. The Olympic is a carbine with a heavy barrel and an A1 upper that I use for a plinker and general bear around rifle. The DPMS is also a carbine but has an A3 upper and a light weight barrel that I use for a home defense weapon it is fitted with a holographic sigjt woth a 1 MOA dot and a 65 moa circle around it. At short range (10 to 20 feet the circle is really fast to use and at longer ranges the 1moa dot is accurate enough for target work. My Bushmaster is a 20 inch HB setup for HP rifle matches with a 1 in 8 barrel and a free floating hand guard and target trigger. It shoots really well out to 600 yards with the 77 gr matchking bullet.

[Moonie]

I'm sorry, what $200.00 fee is that?

Sorry, its a 10% fee not a flat $200:

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/gun%20pages/constructing_and_gunsmithing_the.htm

[Ed in North Texas]

Sorry, its a 10% fee not a flat $200:

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/gun%20pages/constructing_and_gunsmithing_the.htm

Sounds like the Pittman-Robertson Tax (though I believe it is an 11% tax). Levied on hunting and fishing equipment to provide funds for wildlife restoration. The hunting portion was first, requested by various hunter groups to restore whitetails (sure did work!), etc. The fishing gear portion was added in the 50s (IIRC) to provide money for stream restoration, stocking programs, etc. The money is mandated to be spent on the programs, the Clinton Administration got in a bit of trouble when they tried to divert the funds to anti-gun and anti-hunting activities (IIRC that was the purpose the diverted funds were intended for - could be wrong on what, but they were trying to divert funding from the wildlife programs).

One of the few taxes I don't mind paying (and, as you know, it is incorporated in the wholesale price of the equipment).

[terryt]

Hi

Thank all of you for your replies.
I am looking for 1-2 inch groups at 100-300 yards if possible. Thanks for the information about the flat top for scopes. My grandson is 9 also and is on the small side as well. He shoot an M-1 Garand last weekend and did quite well with it. Like most young people he likes what is current and I want to get an AR for him to shoot.

Him and his 12 year old sister shot an AR in .223 at the range and both of them loved it. There mother and father did too. The granddaughter would not shoot the M-1 because it was not cool like the AR.

Thanks,

Terryt

[David2011]

TerryT,

I tried to avoid going on in the last post about the success I've had with my AR but here's the scoop: It's a flat top upper with a 16" bull barrel, free float handguard and A-2 stock. There are a lot of good rifles out there and this one is a factory built Olympic K-16 but the name brand probably is the least important factor unless you’re buying a high end AR. It's not one of the Rock Star brands but I’ve been happy with it. The flat top holds a Nikon 6-18 scope for little critters. It has had some trigger work. The factory trigger broke at about 8 pounds. AR trigger work should be done only by someone with some experience. I called the manufacturer, who makes all of their own parts and asked then about stoning before I worked on the trigger. They said they stone them all the time and they are through hardened unlike the mil spec case hardening. It also got a set of JP springs and a takeup (creep) adjustment screw. It breaks at 3 pounds now but I don't intend to do any more AR trigger jobs. You also have to re-fit the trigger to allow the safety to engage properly. For the amount of time and work involved, the cost to the customer is about the same to install a Timney and the Timney eliminates adjustments.

It has a 5.56 NATO chamber. For the ultimate in accuracy the .223 chambers on match barrels will fit factory ammo better but you can't shoot surplus 5.56 in a .223 chamber. You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber safely. I stumbled across a load using Winchester 748 and at first Sierra MatchKing 53 grain and then later Hornady V-Max 50 grain bullets that shot beyond my expectations for an AR-15. It will hold inside an inch at 200 yards with that bullet and powder combo. Good bullets are EVERYTHING if you want an accurate rifle. This same rifle with mil-spec bullets will shoot about 2.5" at 100 yards. SS-109 62 grain steel cored bullets are only good for about 4" at 200 yards. In all fairness, I haven't spent a lot of time developing loads for the SS-109s but the SS-109 shoots groups twice the size of Sierra 63 grain 1370s with the same powder charge. I use CCI small benchrest primers because I had really good results. I hate paying the extra for BR primers but they just worked really well. I have a feeling that the guy behind the trigger would make more difference than any accuracy difference if I went to regular CCI small rifle primers. There are a lot of good powders for the AR. I started experimenting with 748 because it meters so easily. H4895 also meters easily and has done very well for me in .22-250 with the same bullets I use in the AR.

Oh, yeah- one other thing. This is a heavy rifle with the bull barrel, big scope and 23" Harris bipod. Weight without ammo or magazine but with a sling it's right at 13 pounds. It's great for static shooting like prairie dogs or other varmints in concentration but not much fun for stalk and hunt carrying. Almost all of the weight is at the muzzle end making for a very heavy load at the handguard. I've tried carrying it in rugged areas but a lighter rifle is much more pleasant. Unless you're shooting a lot of rounds in a short time the really heavy barrel is unnecessary. A medium weight barrel would be fine. A 3-9X or 4-12X scope would do for medium sized targets at 100-200 yards. In heavily wooded areas where shot are short a 1-4X scope or red dot would probably do just as well.

David

[gew98]

Hi:

I had a Colt M-16 just before I got out of the Marine Corps in 1967. Had an M-14 over in Nam. The Colt was not that good.
I see there are quite a few out there today. Who is a good maker in a price range of $ 700.00 to $ 1000.00? I would like an accurate rifle but do not plan on shooting matches. I like the Red-Dot sights and would like to know what a good one at a reasonable price. Any and all help would be very must appreciated.

Thanks,

Terryt


Terry ; When the M16 was ramped up for government purchase it was dumbed down in a few ways to include ammunition loaded with an incompatible powder which caused no end of failures and got alot of our troops killed over there.
The investigating committe on this pointed out all these stupid moves and failures but of course not a soul was held accountable.
On AR's since the introduction of the M16A1 are all good rifles from my experiance within the limitations of their caliber.
The 55 grain bullets generally are not going to be takc drivers to 300 yds and beyond especially. The 1/7 twist is the most optimal for longer heavy bullets in 223 caliber. I've got some friends with heavy floated barrel AR's shooting 60 through 77 gn bullets and they can really do some tight groups from the bench at 300 and beyond . I'm no big fan on the 1/7 or heavier than 55gn bullets as I use my AR's simply for fun shooting under 300 yards.
I've got some friends with olympics all the way up with high dollar name brand stuff. My one neighbor has an olympic - it had a 16" long 1" bull barrel up to the FSB and is .750" from FSB to muzzle - ban era no FH. With 55 gn bullets it shot rather nice out to 200yards without a hiccup. He hated the weight of the bull barrel and the muzzleblast was pretty stout. I traded a spare M4A1 barrel for a 16" delton 1/9 and it's almost as accurate but considerably less noisy after I put it on his rifle.
Some fellas love the m4orgery look - flat top with all kinds of rails and every bell and whistle out there pimped on it. I prefer the 'retro' look and it works for me for what I do with them. With all the accessories and options out there for the AR system you can build to suit. Now makers like olympic and older DPMS guns tend to have a less qualitative fit and finish but they have all shot well for me when I have used them. I still have the fisrt AR I ever bought back in the early 80's...a Sendra corp , though it's on it's third barrel ( shot two out over the years ).
Personally if it were an olympic I ended up with I would change out BCG's with a milspec BCG and enjoy it as a shooter.

[Ickisrulz]

I suggest reading through the m4carbine.net website for advice on different manufacturers and their products.

My suggestion is getting a stripped lower locally and then putting it together using an upper receiver, BCG, etc. from Bravo Company USA. By doing this you will have a much better rifle than buying one of the more well known brands. This will run around $1050.

For a red dot sight....Aimpoint owns the game on this. There are less expensive products...but you get what you pay for. Check out the C3 or PRO models.

[gew98]

Ick ; not bad advice but I find the AR fanboy types there have a penchant for the high dollar brand names or nothing else attitude - generally the same type that puts about every bell and whistle on a AR to make near as heavy as the M249 !.

[Ickisrulz]

Ick ; not bad advice but I find the AR fanboy types there have a penchant for the high dollar brand names or nothing else attitude - generally the same type that puts about every bell and whistle on a AR to make near as heavy as the M249 !.

I won't disagree with you there...and I'm not a member of m4carbine.net. But there is lots of good information there about what works and what doesn't. Some of those guys burn through more ammo in a month than I do in a couple years. Obviously not everyone needs a rail system, white light, laser, short dot scope, etc. But I would think buyers would want to know what companies offer high quality equipment.

I suppose if someone was only going to shoot a few rounds a year a bottom basement AR with chinese optics would be fine. But I shoot mine a little more than that and want to be able to count on it if I ever need to.

When I did my AR...I went with Bravo Company. Highly regarded and not extremely expensive either. I was not disappointed. I went with an Aimpoint C3 in a Bobro mount also. The whole thing was about $1600 and IMHO well worth it.

[perotter]

I suppose if someone was only going to shoot a few rounds a year a bottom basement AR with chinese optics would be fine. But I shoot mine a little more than that and want to be able to count on it if I ever need to.

When I did my AR...I went with Bravo Company. Highly regarded and not extremely expensive either. I was not disappointed. I went with an Aimpoint C3 in a Bobro mount also. The whole thing was about $1600 and IMHO well worth it.

Who make Bravo's upper? Who makes there BCG?

[perotter]

All the ARs are about the same, expect for the barrels. For less than $1000 you can get 2 Blackthorns.

FWIW, Sarco has Colt kits (A1 & A2) for under $500 right now.

http://e-sarcoinc.com/partskits.aspx

[Ickisrulz]

All the ARs are about the same, expect for the barrels.

http://e-sarcoinc.com/partskits.aspx

Not everyone's parts are from the same materials, to the same specs, or receive the same QC. Some are better than others.

[Ickisrulz]

Who make Bravo's upper? Who makes there BCG?

Don't know. Seems to be a secret. It's the specs, QC and assembly that matter.

[perotter]

Not everyone's parts are from the same materials, to the same specs, or receive the same QC. Some are better than others.

Who on the low $ doesn't use Carpenter 158 steel for the bolt or shot peen it? How about the BCG or barrel extension? What are the specs(detailed) used for a low $ one vs high $ one?

Do you have a legit test of low $ ones failing before high $ ones?

FWIW, a low $ one I put together last month shots smaller groups with Winchester white box ammo than the Bravo that SGN tested with BH match a while back. Also, I love Benelli auto shotguns. My 1st one was about $1000. I also think they are made better than a Coast-to-Coast pump($75 used for mine) was. I believe the Benelli is a better gun, but I doubt if it's gotten a single extra pheasant(hard to test). Gotta shot a lot of extra pheasants to recoup $925.

[Ickisrulz]

Who on the low $ doesn't use Carpenter 158 steel for the bolt or shot peen it? How about the BCG or barrel extension? What are the specs(detailed) used for a low $ one vs high $ one?

Do you have a legit test of low $ ones failing before high $ ones?

FWIW, a low $ one I put together last month shots smaller groups with Winchester white box ammo than the Bravo that SGN tested with BH match a while back. Also, I love Benelli auto shotguns. My 1st one was about $1000. I also think they are made better than a Coast-to-Coast pump($75 used for mine) was. I believe the Benelli is a better gun, but I doubt if it's gotten a single extra pheasant(hard to test). Gotta shot a lot of extra pheasants to recoup $925.

Here's the thing. I'm not an AR expert. I'm not an expert on many things. When I have questions I try to seek out those with some experience. I came to Cast Boolits for casting and I went to m4carbine.net and AR15.com for AR questions.

The merits of Bravo Company’s offerings have been discussed on the two websites I mentioned over and over again...replete with anecdotal evidence. Most people on those sites (to include professional carbine course instructors) recognize that the quality equipment provided by Colt, BCM, LMT, Daniel’s Defense and Noveske are well worth their premium prices. They have provided enough arguments for their position they made a believer out of me. I don’t have the time and money to test all manufacturers’ AR15s…so I went with the consensus and I have not been disappointed.

I suggest anyone wanting an AR15 do a bunch of research before making the purchase. I suppose many people could get by with your suggested Blackthorne kit (although they are not well thought of), I wanted quality over cost savings. I hate dealing with returns and like to have a certain amount of faith in my equipment. Someday an AR15 might be asked to do a little more than put holes in targets.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive had olys and the old ones were basicaly junk but the newer ones ive shot have been decent guns. Ive got a dpms a colt a rra a stag a bushmaster and a smith and an alexander arms in ars. there all good guns and about comproable in quality. If i had to go to just one id probably keep my stag. Its not that its that much better its that there warantee is the best. Break or wear out anything, even a barrel and they will replace it for the life of the gun. Even if your not the original owner. Cant beat that.

[Ickisrulz]

Ive had olys and the old ones were basicaly junk but the newer ones ive shot have been decent guns. Ive got a dpms a colt a rra a stag a bushmaster and a smith and an alexander arms in ars. there all good guns and about comproable in quality. If i had to go to just one id probably keep my stag. Its not that its that much better its that there warantee is the best. Break or wear out anything, even a barrel and they will replace it for the life of the gun. Even if your not the original owner. Cant beat that.

With 7 Ar15s you probably have more experience with different manufacturer's than most of us. What is the round count on these rifles?

[Rustolium]

Who make Bravo's upper? Who makes there BCG?

Bravo is the manufacturer of their products.

[schutzen]

I've shot Colts, DPMS's, Rock Rivers, LMT's and CMMG's. My personal opinion is the LMT is overpriced for the average shooter. If I was LEO or contract military, I would probably have one. Of the others, my choice would be the Rock River 1st and the CMMG 2nd. The Rock River Varmint delivers excellent accuracy; it will come very close to a Savage M12 bull barrel. The CMMG is only a shade behind it. For my own use, I purchased a CMMG because I could get it $200-300 cheaper. My SIL purchased a M4 style CMMG with a heavy SS barrel. It delivers very good accuracy for coyotes and is good for home defense (the reasons he bought it).

Watch the gun shows in the central US. CMMG is out of Missouri and generally runs specials at guns shows. My varmint model with a 22" SS Bull Barrel and a target trigger was $850 and the SIL's M4 with a SS HB was $700. I though the prices were good.

[sundog]

Last year I took the AR15 plunge for high power. I got a Rock River A4 NM, and it was good to go right out of the box. I don't care that much for AR15/M16, never did all the years I was in service, but always shot expert with them. But, you have to admit, the good ones are very accurate, and certainly easy to shoot for high power. More economical to load than the 30 cals, too.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Aaron Fouraker is co-owner of Delta Company Arms, and a member here. Check the ones his company makes.

Rich

[Ickisrulz]

Bravo is the manufacturer of their products.

Sorry, but this is not correct.

[looseprojectile]

is a Bushmaster XM15E2S, the spitting image of the one the DC Snipers used.
It don't make a lot of difference what make the lower is just how it fits the good upper.
Mine has a RR two stage trigger and will shoot most any load into less than an inch at a hundred if you can hold it. Some loads are one holers. 20" one in nine twist heavy barrel and flattop upper. I have a Burris tactical scope on it but I am just as happy when the 50mm red dot is on it.
You have to decide if you want a light gun or an accurate one. Mine is heavy.

Life is good

[milprileb]

You get what you pay for. Go cheap like Olympic and suffer the consequences. Most civilian AR are not shot much so maybe that rings your bell and price drives the decision

However your price range means you can have a LMT, S&W,Rock River or other high quality M4 / AR rifles. First choice is go this route.

Second choice:: buy the best upper you can get with factory installed BCG and install it on a named brand lower unit (factory or build up one yourself).

There is a limit though on what makes sense. Yes you can go LWRC and be just as well off with a LMT with lesser cosmetic finish. You can chase HK name and pay twice what a S&W will run you.

The Camero will do just fine but if you seek Corvette and Porsche, you are focused on other aspects other than performance that mere mortals need.

[161]

I see Mossberg has jumped on the AR band wagon. I helped my Son build one, kit came from Model 1 Sales with a Superior lower. EG Shaw stainless fluted bull barrel 1 in 9 twist, flat top Rock River two stage trigger and a Redfield 4X12. Shoots 1/2 inch @ 100 yards all day. A lot cheaper that way.

[Surplus Shooter]

I would say you should look at the smith and wesson M&P they are great guns for the price or you could build one.

[zomby woof]

If you only looking for 1-2 inch accuracy at 100 yards with Walmart ammo, it can be easily accomplished. I just finished a build for my cousin, total cost $600. That is on the low end of the scale and will fit your accuracy requirement. If you want better it's all up to the barrel and ammo.

If this is just for your grand kids to plink with, I suggest a kit. You can get an upper already assembled and just put together the lower with ordinary tools. It's real easy and the web is a great helper.

Ar accuracy comes from:
barrel
Ammo
Float tube
Trigger
Sights

All these are easily upgraded from any kit.

I have a Mass produced barrel that shoots under 2 inches with Remington 55 grain, 1X9 twist.

My Krieger service rifle barrel with tweaked ammo will shoot all day long under 3/4 inch.

It is the most versatile rifle system out there IMO. They're easy to take apart and just keep on shooting.

[hiram1]

colt sp1

[dualsport]

Any locally available stripped lower: $100. CAR kit from J&T Sales $500. You're shooting for $600. Mine was plenty accurate. No problems at all. Like a dummy I sold it, kept the A2. The CAR was more accurate! Assembling a lower is easier than you might guess.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got a colt a stag a dmps a bushmaster a smith and a alexander arms (beowulf). Out of all of them the colt is my favorite but there higher priced too. The rest of them cost about the same and out of them id take the stag. Ive had a few others through the years and the only ones i could really say were junk were 2 olympics i had. I have to say in there defense the newer ones ive shot have been decent guns. One other advantage to a stag is there the only one that has a no questions lifetime warantee on every part of the gun. Even if you wear a barrel out shooting they will replace it for free.

[Ickisrulz]

ive got a colt a stag a dmps a bushmaster a smith and a alexander arms (beowulf). Out of all of them the colt is my favorite but there higher priced too. The rest of them cost about the same and out of them id take the stag. Ive had a few others through the years and the only ones i could really say were junk were 2 olympics i had. I have to say in there defense the newer ones ive shot have been decent guns. One other advantage to a stag is there the only one that has a no questions lifetime warantee on every part of the gun. Even if you wear a barrel out shooting they will replace it for free.

I asked this before, but what kind of round counts do you have in these rifles? This will provide a little more insight on your opinions.

[cajun shooter]

I did my tour in 65-67 with the 4th ID. I came back to be a cop and armorer for the dept. I was in charge of all the 16's and built many guns for the officers. A Colt lower would be great but after that it becomes a little muddy. I have had at least 4 of the other guns. If you can do your own build then do so. As a mud marine you should know that you don't need all the TV **** that they put on the units of today. Buy a flattop upper so that you may add the carry handle if you wish. Lights and barrels trimmed so that a 40MM launcher may be attached is not needed. Unless you have some HE stored. Ha!! Ha!! The Stag, Bushmaster, with heavy barrels would be my choice. Stay away from Olympics as the quality shifted around. I did also have a DPMS that I bought ready to go that never had a FTF.