Revolvers that will not shoot.

[44man]

A friend bought a used S&W 629. I can NOT make it shoot with anything.
I slugged the bore at .4294" and the throats at .4336". I tried over size boolits. It still does better with 240 XTP's.
I never had trouble with my old 29's but this one just rubs me wrong.
Then the cylinder unlocked and went backwards so the next shot was a "click." I did not have a stronger cylinder stop spring but found a tiny spring that fit inside the other. It stopped the cylinder reverse.
I don't know if any of you have seen the .500 S&W double with the first shot with the cylinder full but there are videos out there. The cylinder unlocks, goes backwards and hammer bounce will fire the round. Seems as if it is only safe with an empty chamber under the hammer.
Accuracy with this 629 just plain sucks!

[GLL]

What is the model "dash" number on this 629?

Jerry

[9.3X62AL]

I "balked" on buying one of a NICE brace of Model 29s two summers back, all of which had .433"-.434" throats. Priced decently, but I didn't want the potential headaches. Especially since I have a Redhawk with NICE dimensions that is a pleasure to run. If there's another 44 Mag in my future, it would likely be a Ruger BisHawk and/or a lever rifle of some sort. The S&W revos in this caliber are too "iffy" for my taste, when subjected to a "tale of the tape" via pin guage.

[Bret4207]

Every now and again you run into a gun that just doesn't want to co-operate.

[MtGun44]

Send that one down the road or accept mediocre accy with only J-bullets.

Life is too short, and there are a LOT more 629s out there, many will work just fine.
Some users will not be able to tell the difference due to the common 'jerk -n- flinch'
shooting by many .44 Mag owners. Minute of berm is good enough for some, and
this is the perfect gun for one of them. It IS kinda irritating, tho!

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a 3 in blued 29 that is about the same. Ive been tryig to get a cast bullet to shoot but am really struggling. Mine doesnt really like jacketed either. the throats measure .4335 and the biggest sizer die i have is 432. Ive got a 433 comming right now but im not holding my breath that it is going to turn it into a tack driver. Its suck a cool little gun that ill probably just live with it and use it for pig hunting where the range seldom is over 25 yards or self defense where the range is rarely past 25 feet.

[Guesser]

I came into a really nice M29-2 back about 1997 or so. Beautiful 8 3/8ths", really nice. I liked it but could never get it to keep pace with my Super BH or my 10" Contender. The SBH was sold for something else and about 2 years ago someone fell for the 29 and now I don't have to worry with it. The 29 never did shoot as well as I thought it should.

[44man]

What is the model "dash" number on this 629?

Jerry
No dash, it is one of the first stainless guns they made. It also has the pinned barrel.
I have some .433" and .434" boolits here somewhere. I made the molds for the Marlin, just have to check and see if I have any left without casting. It is just too hot to stand over a pot.
I don't hold much hope of such a large boolit in the tight bore.

[Jack Stanley]

Hearing stories like this makes me feel fortunate to get not one but two that work pretty well with .433" bullets . My six inch I bought brand new in 1985 and I shot it enough to wear two barrels and cylinders off it . It was nice of S&W to replace them at no charge . This one is fun to use in IDPA matches [smilie=l:

The four inch gun I found a couple years later , it was an unused pinned and recessed in a Bangor Punta box . It's been used out to twenty-five yards and does what you would expect of a service revolver . Oddly enought the trigger was fine right out of the box with the exception that I really don't care for the grooves on the face of the trigger in double action .

Jack

[subsonic]

Could always fire-lap the snot out of it until bore is closer to throat?

[44man]

Could always fire-lap the snot out of it until bore is closer to throat?
Not worth it! [smilie=s:
The gun should go away and he should listen to what I tell him. But he has too much money for that. He is a "see and buy person."

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thoughts..

1. The cylinder unlocking and turning backwards was the problem the early silhouette shooters had with the 29 that caused the factory to change the lock work to a more durable set up. These early 29s and 629s, often shot loose in less than 1,000 rounds.

2. The factory or a good pistolsmith can put the sixgun back in fighting trim, but less than full snort loads is what is needed to get good service life out of these earlier pistols.

3. I had a good 29 (early lock work) with .433-434 cylinder throats and it gave me good accuracy with 250 grain Keith bullets over 10/Unique. This is a 1,100 fps load and has all the power I can use. Some years ago, I had RCBS make a .432 sizing die and this is what I used with ACWW bullets.

5. I gave the pistol to my son last year along with 500 rounds of the above handload. I told him if he needed more ammo, bring me the cases and I would load it for him.

[subsonic]

Not worth it! [smilie=s:
The gun should go away and he should listen to what I tell him. But he has too much money for that. He is a "see and buy person."

Would probably run out of rifling depth too, now that I think about it.

[44man]

I tried the RD .432" boolits that will do 3/4" at 50 from my SBH. I only had 3 hit paper, shotgun at best.
I get the impression that 3 chambers hit close and 3 somewhere else. I might have to test POI from chambers. I found nothing wrong with chamber alignment but who knows?

[9.3X62AL]

Has anyone here tried the 11* forcing cone modification to address the wide-throated S&W M-29/629 issue? I gave that blurb about 15 seconds of consideration while fondling that VERY NICE 5" M-29 two summers ago, but balked as above.

[subsonic]

Have you looked at the crown? Good mainspring?

[Changeling]

Have you looked at the crown? Good mainspring?

I looked at the crown today though not through a magnifier and it looked fine to me. This is not a crown type problem, not at the close shooting range! The target shots are random, on each target !:veryconfu

[Char-Gar]

We often are overly concerned about cylinder throats larger than we would like. It is not uncommon to find older Smith and Wesson 44s with throats .433-.434. I have several Pre-War 2nd Model Hand Ejectors like that. Even so mine and others can shoot very well.

Our problem in these days, is we want to shoot bullets too hard to obdurate at 44 Special or even 44 Magnum pressures. It is no trick for a 38/357 bullet to "slug up" .001 and a 44 or 45 bullet to "slug up" .002. We just think our cylinder throats are too large because our bullets are too hard. Soften our alloys and the problem goes away.

[Lloyd Smale]

I would think the soft bullet and obdurate theroy, alough i dont buy into it, would apply more for a gun with a cylinder smaller then the bore. I dont think id want to have a bullet bump up to the throat and then squeeze back down through the barrel. There wouldnt be much left that looked anything like a bullet. This isnt just smiths either. Im also stuggling with a redhawk in 44 at the same time that also has .433 throats and wont shoot.

[songdog53]

I guess a blind hog will find an acorn once in while, for i have model 29 and model 629 that have worked well for me for several years and real pleasure to shoot.

[44man]

I always had faith in them. I owned 5 or 6 original 29's over the years and all were tack drivers. Whitworth has one that shoots very well.
My response to those that have trouble with a S&W was always that it should shoot. I have to retract that now. With all that I have worked on over the years, this one sours me.
I might just cut an 11* forcing cone on it, it sure will not make it worse.
The used gun market scares me. There are only three reasons to sell a gun. The man can be broke and needs money, the gun kicks too much or it will not shoot. When you see a gun in the case, how does anyone know the reason for getting rid of it?

[Char-Gar]

There is at least one more reason to sell a gun. I have sold many of them, but because I had them long enough, the fun or having a new gun had worn off and I wanted to go on to somethings else. I have sold many guns that were fine shooters and were not broken.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have an early M-25 in 45 colt that shot shotgun patterns with lead cast but not jacket or soft factory.
After a recrown and an 11deg cut [by SSK] the gun is a tack driver with anything..
I suspect the crown is not square, the forcing cone is off or ruff or the barrel has a tight spot...
I believe that unless the cylinder is verry bad that the barrel is where
most of your problems come from...

[44man]

There is at least one more reason to sell a gun. I have sold many of them, but because I had them long enough, the fun or having a new gun had worn off and I wanted to go on to somethings else. I have sold many guns that were fine shooters and were not broken.
That is true in my case too. I could never afford the new gun without selling an old one. However, my friends gobble mine up because they know what they are getting. Anything not good was sold at a gun show because I would never sell one to a friend.

[44man]

Groo here
I have an early M-25 in 45 colt that shot shotgun patterns with lead cast but not jacket or soft factory.
After a recrown and an 11deg cut [by SSK] the gun is a tack driver with anything..
I suspect the crown is not square, the forcing cone is off or ruff or the barrel has a tight spot...
I believe that unless the cylinder is verry bad that the barrel is where
most of your problems come from...
Inspection shows a good crown and the forcing cone is very even. It slugged smoothly without a tight spot and the bore is good looking.
I shot a lot of my lead from it and found zero leading, not a single speck.
I need to see if a neck sized case with a larger boolit will chamber. It is just too hot to shoot with this heat wave. I don't want to go outside! :groner:

[Changeling]

Inspection shows a good crown and the forcing cone is very even. It slugged smoothly without a tight spot and the bore is good looking.
I shot a lot of my lead from it and found zero leading, not a single speck.
I need to see if a neck sized case with a larger boolit will chamber. It is just too hot to shoot with this heat wave. I don't want to go outside! :groner:


Hi Jim, going outside in these temperatures would be just plain stupid! There is nothing worth answering that is worth your life, stay cool and keep your butt inside!

[MtGun44]

Not worth your life??

I did 26 miles on the bicycle today in 102F heat after work. Not so wonderful, but if you drink
properly, and take a midpoint Gatoraide break, not too big a deal, either.

Bill

[44man]

Not worth your life??

I did 26 miles on the bicycle today in 102F heat after work. Not so wonderful, but if you drink
properly, and take a midpoint Gatoraide break, not too big a deal, either.

Bill
You youngsters are nuts! :kidding:
It is going to be 101* today with a 115* heat index. I am almost 74 and bikes are not air conditioned! 8-)
I prefer to sit inside and drink beer today.
I was smart and gave up bikes when I got my first car.

[MtGun44]

Youngster? I guess that depends on where you are, yes I am younger than
74. I'm 60, and thanks for accusing me of being a youngster - THAT doesn't happen
any more! :-)

I need to do something to keep me a bit in shape and keep my motorcycle
accident damaged knee from locking up on me. If I bike it hurts a lot less and
works better all around, strengthens the muscles and stretches the ligaments
without hammering it to death. Just trying to keep the machinery going as long
as it will still work.

Bill

[44man]

Youngster? I guess that depends on where you are, yes I am younger than
74. I'm 60, and thanks for accusing me of being a youngster - THAT doesn't happen
any more! :-)

I need to do something to keep me a bit in shape and keep my motorcycle
accident damaged knee from locking up on me. If I bike it hurts a lot less and
works better all around, strengthens the muscles and stretches the ligaments
without hammering it to death. Just trying to keep the machinery going as long
as it will still work.

Bill
I am lucky. I take NO medications and have no pains. I feel like 30!
I hate heat and high humidity worse being from Ohio. I love a good blizzard and tons of snow. I can hunt for days in blowing snow when my glove freezes to the barrel. Love is winter when snow falls down my neck from trees. Deer are beautiful with full coats and frost on muzzles.
I love fall and spring but winter is when I am in my glory as long as there is snow. Summer is pain, heat sucks.

[Changeling]

Excuse me Jim, I have to go outside and warm up, be back in 5min, LOL!

[44man]

Excuse me Jim, I have to go outside and warm up, be back in 5min, LOL!
Well I got the really nice Weigand base for the Mark I today. I spent a long time to make sure I was level and at the Ruger screw spacing. This is not easy by hand but I have it perfect. Drilled and tapped, Ultra Dot is on.
You needed to be here for the 5 minute warm up to sight the gun in! :2 drunk buddies:
I am about ready to see if my home brew is good.

[44man]

I cut the forcing cone to 11* and accuracy did improve. I shot this at 50 yards from creedmore and had a better group the first time but shots were high in the backstop.
The bad thing is that now the gun shoots 4" higher with the rear sight all the way down.
The gun is still not what it should be. Now why did the POI go up?????
Cast shot better too but everything was too high.
You might say velocity was lower but I loaded the cast FAST yet they also hit just as high.

[44man]

OOPS, picture.

[x101airborne]

Ja, even for hunting out to 50 yards, that is minute of piggy. If I could get a nice, consistent group at 50 offhand at around 3 inches, Id hit that.

This thread exactly explains why my early 29 had to be rebuilt about every 1100 - 1300 rounds. I never knew why, but I was constantly fighting crane alignment issues, rotation issues, reliability issues, and sometimes the dang thing would just lock up!! I still have it with all the bluing nearly worn off, the blunted front sight where it was knocked out of my holster by a bulll helping me over the loading chute fence. The crack in the grip from when it fell from the tree stand. And the finger prints around the barrel when I did not know that blood removes bluing quick. Never get rid of it, but my ruger is twice the weapon although not as elegant.

[44man]

This sounds like a Colt SAA 44 special I have been negotiating with.

Your group after the 11 degree forcing cone is about 3 1/2" x 2" ?

That is about the the best I can do with the Colt SAA so far, sometimes 5", sometimes it will put a couple cutting the same holes, but then there are the others :killingpc
My SBH has a red dot and will do 3/4" at 50.
All the 29's I owned would do 1/2" at 50 with open sights but I had great vision then. This is the same load I used.
I still feel like I was holding very good and had great sight pictures from Creedmore. It is the only position that puts sights far enough from my eyes.
This gun really hates cast boolits and shoots the 240 XTP best.

[Paul D. Heppner]

Gentlemen, this discussion is most interesting as I have a 625 mountain gun that will only shot jacketed. I have had the forcing cone reworked, it wasn't concentric with the bore. It's better now, really good with 250 xtp. But I am still not happy with my cast loads which is what I really want to use. Cast just kills so much better in my opinion. So please keep the ideas coming. I have slugged the bore at .4515 and the chamber throats at .4522 to .4524. I have looked the crown over with a 10x loupe and it seems okay. As to it's squareness to the bore I dont't know. In contrast I have a 625 Model of 1989 in 45 auto rim that is by far the most accurate handgun I haver ever shot with anything I put thru it.

I quess if this stuff was easy we wouldn't be as devoted as we are.

[44man]

It drives me nuts and makes me realize why some do not believe the groups we shoot. I also wonder about heat. I do not shoot as good in hot humid weather. I won't work loads for heat as my guns are for hunting. Yet this revolver used my IHMSA load.
A gun can be perfect and not shoot and in all these years I have not solved it. Buy a rifle and do your best to get 2" at 100 yet the next one off the line can make one hole.
Rifles today made by certain companies say 1/2" or better at 100 and it is true.
Why do revolvers take a back seat? Why do dimensions vary so much? Why is one a tack driver and the other is junk?
Even two revolvers that are exactly the same in every way will have one shoot and the other will not.
One time I bought a new Mark II pistol. I could not hit a target because I found bullets were hitting the ground 20 feet in front of me. The bore was straight, crown was good, nothing wrong that I could find. Ruger replaced it with no explanation. The new one could shoot a squirrel in the eye at 50 yards. Why would a gun turn a bullet down to the ground?
I bought the new Winchester .22 lever gun that was all machined. I could not hit a tin can at 20 yards. It sprayed shots. A box of 50 might make one hole in the can. I had a Marlin Mounty that would shoot a squirrel in the eye at 100 yards, every shot and did 3/4" all day at 100. My Marlin .35 Remington would shoot 1/2" at 100 with factory loads.
I had a TC .50 Hawken when they first came out. It would make one hole at 50 yards with both a RB and Maxi Ball, I killed a deer on a dead, leaping run at 125 yards with it. Friends bought others and a 2' target was safe at 25 yards.
Freedoms! Please don't get me started. Some were minted from gold and others made good boat anchors.
Colts, spare me.
Today I will buy Savage and BFR's. Ruger is next.

[Char-Gar]

I remember an old song, with a line that went..."mad dogs and Englishmen go about in the noon day sun". I an not an Englishman, mad dog or even a lizard on a rock. I avoid the hot South Texas summer sun wherever possible. Life becomes good again about mid to late October and remain that way through April.

[Freightman]

I remember an old song, with a line that went..."mad dogs and Englishmen go about in the noon day sun". I an not an Englishman, mad dog or even a lizard on a rock. I avoid the hot South Texas summer sun wherever possible. Life becomes good again about mid to late October and remain that way through April.
I am not even close to deep south Texas but the sun here this year would take the skin off a rino, and I am tired of it. Wish the eternal high that has been centered over us would leave and we could get back to evening thunder storms and cool nights. And why do different rifles or pistols of the same kind shoot different, why does one man work his hinie off and just barley get by, and another be a lazy bumm and stumble into a fortune?

[tek4260]

Here is my project.......

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/tk3945/2011-07-24082856.jpg


Pretty sad. I'm not holding my breath for anything acceptable from this ol 45

[Lloyd Smale]

well i had some progress with my two finiky 44s. Still not tack drivers but i have a load that shoots 1.5 at 25 in the 3 inch 29 and 2 inch in the 3 inch redhawk 44. Switching to .433 did help. There still a bit small for the smith but fit nice and snug in the redhawk. I guess for what id use a 3 inch 44 mag for that level of accuracy will do the job. I was sure glad to see that smith do at least fair. It was going to have to go down the road and its such a pretty little sixgun. Its odd that smith would cut .434 chambers in a gun that was made that recently. Every other 44 mag or special smith i have had worked great with .430 bullets.

[44man]

Spare me :( What have you found wrong with Colts so I can quit wasting my time?
I love the SAA but some had large firing pin holes and could double with a pierced primer. I never liked the lock work. The Python was a great gun but the Anaconda was a failure. Rough and not accurate.
1911's ran the whole range with some shooters and some sprayers.
A lot of Colts were really good but it was still hit or miss.
S&W was always the best of the best but then seemed to decline. They will not admit to problems and will blame the shooter. The .500 is doubling with reverse cylinder rotation from being unlocked and hammer bounce. The .44 has had reverse rotations with a click for the next shot, not nice with a bear on you.
Dan Wesson made some super guns then went down the drain. I seen many with barrels in so crooked sights needed to extend 2" to the side. Internal parts did not work as designed. They have come back some.
Freedom is in bankruptcy.
Guns made in Brazil can be good or really bad.
Magnum Research had a clone of the Mark II that sucked. So did some other company I don't remember. Nothing beats the Ruger! The BFR's have been perfect but now the .44 Shorty is showing undersize throats so I suspect they are 100% Ruger revolvers.
Ruger has been all over the place with tack drivers and so-so guns.
Understand I am not against any one company. Even Remington and WW has built real bad rifles and shotguns with troubles.
I even worked on a Savage with a crooked barrel to the action, yet it shot 1/2" groups at 100 with a shimmed scope.
Just why were so many military rifles so stinking accurate? Why were old, old rifles so accurate? You could buy a rifle long ago with confidence. Old lever guns rivaled BR rifles.
Today you need to spend $9000 for a rifle that sold for $13 back then to get the same accuracy.
Now, can you even imagine a $4000 scope when a Weaver did as good?
A $2500 custom revolver can shoot much, much worse then a $300 Ruger. The name on a gun will never make it shoot better.
How many poor guns does a gun maker turn out compared to good ones? The one that makes more good ones is where you should spend your money.

[44man]

I have other old Colts that will shoot circles around these 3rd generation 44 specials. One is a 44-40 Frontier Six Shooter the other even more accurate a 38-40 SAA. Both are well worn, no finish left with less then shiny bores. Then a Colt Official Police 4" 38 special that will drive nails with just about any ammo you put in it. One thing , the old rifling was deeper. A 1938 Colt 6" Woodsman that will shoot as good or better then most rifles.

I wish there was some reference of specifications for what works and what doesn't. Like a check list; forcing cone diameters, angles, rifling specs & twists, crowns, cylinder mouths and chamber spec's. There must be methods that take the mystery or guess work out . What works and what doesn't.
I wonder too. Button rifling might not be so good with cut being better. Yet it can be good too. Even hammer forged barrels have been super.
Rifling depth---YES, easy to see with muzzle loaders with modern shallow rifling. The best RB rifling will be around .010" deep. Some of the new guns are .003".
Marlin Micro groove rifles are .003" so they went to the Ballard rifling for cast yet they kept the .003" depth. Should be .006" minimum. Cast needs deeper then jacketed. Chicken scratches in the barrel are stupid.
How deep is the rifling in the .45 ACP or the 9mm? Just how much better would they be with real rifling and cast boolits?
Old, old guns are just great!