Berdan Primers Coming: what size do we want ?

[milprileb]

Okay, it looks like Tula Berdan primers are coming and I talked to the importer about availability. This opens up reloading cast bullets for brass that you (I do) have on hand which has been useless for the last few years.

He asked me a question and the answer may drive what arrives. It regards size of primers.

He said: Which of the Berdan Primers do you think would be most popular? 7.62 x 39 Large Rifle or the 7.62 x NATO, looks like we are going to get some within the next two months.

I have emailed asking for sizes/ measurements of these primers. From what I understand , there are several sizes of Berdan primer
pockets in brass so this begs the question what size is most needed by us reloaders.

Yugo 8mm, 762x54R and Swiss GP11 brass is Berdan primed and a great deal of us have saved this fine brass for the day we could
get Berdan primers to reload these cases. That said, can anyone who does reload them tell me what size the Berdan primers must be?

DAG and other European makers of some 762Nato ammo has been sold here in the last few years so what size primer is needed?

If you can help Identify the need, perhaps we can prime the supply line to arrive with what is most needed by us reloaders.

[bumpo628]

I think less people would be interested in reloading berdan .308 due to the easy availability of boxer brass.

7.62x54R and 7.62x39 would probably be popular calibers since there is a lot of Yugo berdan brass cases out there and not a lot of boxer. As you mentioned, 8mm & Swill GP11 would be a close second. I'm not sure, but they may all take the same primer.

[lead-1]

I don't need any right now but I will add my two cents in, everything that I had reloaded in Berdan was a Large Rifle Berdan in a .217 dia. primer. I loaded a couple thousand 7.62x51 and a limited supply of 8mm and 7.62x54.

[TinCan Assassin]

Damn. I tossed all my berdan brass as useless.

[milprileb]

Large Rifle Berdan or a .217 dia. primer

Can anyone confirm what caliber of brass this primer will work in ?

[milprileb]

[]Damn. I tossed all my berdan brass as useless. ][/B][/B]

Well Lads, if you got some, hold'em cause you may have a choice in using that brass.

Swiss 7.5 brass (GP 11) is awesome brass and if I could use it with my cast loads, I would
have some great range fodder.

I have Yugo 8mm and 762x54R brass that is equally nice and berdan primers would put this great brass back on the firing line !

[dverna]

Bumpo makes a good point. Alas, I have junked thousands of Berdan primed .308's or I would say .308 for selfish reasons.

I was not aware .308 Berdan primers were a different size than Large Rifle Berdan primers.

Don

[mroliver77]

It is hotter than the dickens out there but if I get to the shop I will deprime some 7.62x51 and measure. This size would be the most useful to me. Even though .308 is fairly plentiful the brass is still not cheap. If I could reload some of the beautiful berdan brass I have it would sure help I know others that would want the same. If the same primer worked for my 7.62x54 brass that would be just ducky!
Jay

[lead-1]

Bumpo makes a good point. Alas, I have junked thousands of Berdan primed .308's or I would say .308 for selfish reasons.

I was not aware .308 Berdan primers were a different size than Large Rifle Berdan primers.

Don


I'm sorry to mislead you guys but the rounds that I loaded used the Large Rifle Berdan.

Large Rifle Berdan = .217 diameter

7.62x51 Nato, 8mm and 7.62x54 were what I loaded

Edit to add that I just measured some 7.5 Swiss brass that I have and it is also .217 diameter

[bumpo628]

Here's some more info that I found:


.217 ( Standard Rifle)
.250 ( .303 br.)
.254 ( Russian 7,62x54R and other Cases pre-1890s )
http://milsurpshooter.net/topic/37188/t/Berdan-versus-Boxer-Primed-Ammo-Don-t--Reload.html#.TiSeMluvadA


and these pages too (but they're a bit confusing):
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdan_supplies_dimensions.html
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdanprimers.html




Here are some RWS Berdan primer #'s, sizes and use from 2004

4506 -- .177 dia -- .090 hi -- Small pistol
4520 -- .177 dia -- .080 hi -- Small rifle
4521 -- .177 dia -- .090 hi -- 9mm Luger
5005 -- .197 dia -- .090 hi -- non-standard Large (this may be the Tula size)
5608 -- .217 dia -- .110 hi -- Standard NATO
5620 -- .217 dia -- .100 hi -- Most common Berdan Rifle primer
6000 -- .250 dia -- .110 hi -- Large rifle - (303brit?)
6504 -- .254 dia -- .090 hi -- Large Rifle - Like 11mm Mauser
6507 -- .245 dia -- .133 hi -- Big boys like the Brit Nitros - Same as #172 Eley

EDIT by bumpo628: The .177 dimension above was listed as .117 in the original post. This looks like a typo since the metric dimension of 4.5mm was also given (which is .177). The last dimension of .245" could be a typo too. Maybe the poster transposed the .254". The metric dimension for .254" was also given as 6.45mm which matches nicely.


Here's the calguns page where I found all of the above.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=320998

I don't know if the above information is correct; I'm just trying to get the ball rolling so we can nail down the information. It would be great if anyone with berdan primer experience would double check and correct the table above.

[Gtek]

Just asking because I do not know. Would these not be metric in measurement, and we Yanks are using inch?. Gtek

[bumpo628]

Just asking because I do not know. Would these not be metric in measurement, and we Yanks are using inch?. Gtek

Yes, they are in metric. However, it is difficult to find a clean table with all of the info.

Here are two examples from my post above:
.177" = 4.5mm
.254" = 6.45mm

Here are the other numbers converted to metric:
.197" = 5.0mm
.217" = 5.5mm
.250" = 6.35mm

The last number is probably an error:
.245" = 6.22mm (that just doesn't look right)


Hopefully the vendor selling the berdan primers will give us the outer diameter and depth of the primers instead of just model numbers or descriptions like "large rifle".

[NuJudge]

One needs to specify Berdan primers not just by diameter, but height, hardness and explosive strength.

I bought a lot of the last two batches of Berdan primers to come in. About 10 years ago, PMC brought in a small, and then a large batch of primers made by Murom in Russia. Those were .217" diameter, relatively tall, and they seemed soft but with rather strong explosive force. They worked great in bolt action full power cartridges such as the 7.5x55, .308, 8x57, 8x56R, FN-made .303, and Albanian & early Bulgarian 7.62x54R. Because I thought them soft, I was afraid to try them in semi-auto rifles without a firing pin retraction spring. The Murom designators for these primers are KV-7.62N.

Fairly recently, there was another batch of Murom-made primers imported, these by TulAmmo, again .217" diameter, but shorter and harder. These worked great in the 7.62x39, but not in any larger cases. The Murom desgnators for them was KV-24N.

Most 7.62x54R has .254" primer pockets, except for the Albanian and early Bulgarian, as noted above. Priming .254" primer pockets is hard, but .217" primer pockets prime with the same tools as .210" Boxer. Back when the only Boxer 7.62x54R brass was expensive Norma, I reprimed and reloaded a lot of .254" Berdan brass. I'd love it if they brought it in.

Most .303 has .250" primer pockets, except for the FN and late South African brass, which had .217" pockets.

Give some thought about how you are going to remove spent primers. Some primers are heavily crimped and sealed in, and are nearly impossible to get out, such as late South African .303 and, IIRC, Australian .308. I use the RCBS tool usually, with some use of various hydraulic methods. The RCBS tool works OK on cases with heads the size of the 7.62x39, better with heads the size of the 7.5x55, and well with the the 7.62x54R.

[MtGun44]

I would like to buy some of them for GP11 brass.

Bill

[lead-1]

NuJudge, are these the ones that you had from PMC? I was thinking these ones were Russian but I couldn't remember for sure what country supplied PMC with these.
I used them in a jacketed load for my FAL and CETME with no ill effects or misfires from soft primers.
I know these aren't the same as whats being offered but using them as a size comparison.

Note that these are marked Large and Standard Berdan along with .217.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/96984e252991c5fe4.jpg

[milesray]

Damn. I tossed all my berdan brass as useless.

Me too.

[mnkyracer]

Dumb question here - what tooling does it take to deprime berdan primed brass. I have been saving all the brass I can and putting the Berdan stuff in the scrap barrel. Might have to go back thru it if it is not much of an expense.

[lead-1]

Dumb question here - what tooling does it take to deprime berdan primed brass. I have been saving all the brass I can and putting the Berdan stuff in the scrap barrel. Might have to go back thru it if it is not much of an expense.

There are a couple different ways to decap berdan brass, RCBS makes a tool that you adjust a pointed tip to dig the old primer out without ruining the anvil in the pocket. Some folks use a sort of die that holds the brass and you fill it with water and insert a plug that you hit with a hammer and kind of hydrolic the primer out.
All I ever managed to do with the hydrolic method was severely deform the brass.

[Frank46]

Sounds like a great way to recycle that south african 303 brass. Good brass and does not bulge out to the extent win and rem brass does. Think it takes the .217 dia. primer. Frank

[3006guns]

I've been waiting for this ship to come in for a long time. Thank you for your effort!

I've got over 3000 rds. of that Turkish 8mm sitting in boxes and about 4000rds. of 7.65 Mauser....both calibers have beautiful brass and I sure didn't want to toss it.

I'll be popping off and depriming a couple tomorrow.

[BigRix]

This video has an interesting approach to de capping berdan primers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNDgjcgofY

[milprileb]

Frank 46,

I too have the SA 303 brass. Its primers are peened into the pocket and hard to get out. I ruined 3 of 6 tries last night. I have the case secured in a upright die for a holder, sitting in Rock Chucker press: good holder solution and I use a awl to puncture and pry out primers: no issue with 7.5 GP 11 Swiss brass and Yugo/Serb M30 762x54R brass cases. Now the SA 303, is darn right hard to lever that primer out. Maybe my technique needs refinement or I need a different shaped probe to lever primer out. Will work on that.

The Berdan primers sizes are different for GP 11 cases and the Yugo M30 54R cases. Maybe someone can confirm what size the South Africans used on their 303 cases.

[GRUMPA]

Man here I am doing all kinds of google searches for Berdan Primers and it leads me right here in my own back yard. Now I read all the threads and now I'm scratching my head wondering, now I have to educate myself even further and find out more than I thought I would have to. Haven't got the 7.35 carcano brass from a customer yet so as far as size goes I have no clue yet.

Here I was reading on how to just form it from some other type of rifle cartridge. Sure hope if I go thru all the paces to find out the size of primer pocket I can get the primers I need.

[superior]

I've pulled many a jword from steel cases, as well as, berdan primed brass cases to load my own boolits. Now, not only do I still have a large supply of unfired berdan primed, brass cased x39's, but steel cased also. I will most certainly reload both using new Berdan primers. Steel cases can be reloaded too, ya know?

[milprileb]

The importer needs to know what we want and if you contact him at :

info@dagammo.com , and state how many primers you want (no money , just
your wish list), then he can plan to import these.

Right now, no one is doing that and only 6 folks have done it. He is not going to import a 40 foot container of Berdan primers on a expected demand of only 6 reloaders.

If we want primers, we need to email him and let him know we need Berdan Primers.

Time for folks to get off the side lines and participate here ... otherwise we lose out.

[milprileb]

Hold'em or Fold'em

You want Berdan, email and get your voice heard.

Otherwise, we sit on this fine brass and are in limbo

[Frosty Boolit]

Search for member Dschuttig. He was buying a bunch of berdan brass on here awhile back and I'll bet he is knowledgable about the different sizes.

[MtGun44]

I sent an e-mail asking for primers to work with GP11 brass, 7.5x55 Swiss caliber.

Bill

[indymadcaster]

anyone get prices on these ? or a date?

[bumpo628]

Is there a list of the sizes and specs that are available? How about prices too?

[milprileb]

dagammmo.com

Send your wish list of what you want so importer can plan what the market demand is:

info@dagammo.com

The 7.62Nato size fits the 7.5 Swiss by the way.

As soon as folks email importer, he can figure out what to bring here.

Last week only 6 folks got off their duff and emailed him. Problem is: if everyone sits and does not email their wish list, how can the importer sort out what to bring in ?

[mpmarty]

I throw away my GP11 brass at each match as I can't be bothered with the berdan primers and just use 284 Winchester brass resized to 7.5X55 for loading for my K31s. The GP11 is wonderful ammo for matches but too expensive for plinking. That's where the 284 brass and cast boolits come into play. I recently scored about a thousand once fired 284 brass.

[skeet1]

The web site for Dag Ammo is http://www.dagammo.com/shop/?main_page=index&cPath=7 They are advertising Berdan primers for sale. You might like to go to their site and see what they have.

Ken

[milprileb]

Why form 7.5 Swiss or 7.5 French brass from other calibers when you can get it boxer primed from Grafs darn cheap.

However , for those of us with a ton of 7.5 Fr, 7.5 Swiss, 762 Nato high quality brass in berdan cases ..... these berdan primers are a welcome supply

But............................................... ................

Ya gotta email : info@dagammo.com and tell owner what you need.

[NuJudge]

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=100000280

Most of the 7.5x55 ammo I shoot (including that I shot in the National Matches Vintage Military match, taking 5th place) is Berdan primed, but some of it is Boxer.

The Widener's brass is primed, and $10 a hundred cheaper than Grafs.

[milprileb]

Not so fast there NuJudge, while its a bit cheaper, its primed so you pay haz mat to ship it. I buy the unprimed brass that is cheap to ship and prime here at the bench. Its faster, cheaper in the long run.

However, if you are buying large quantity then perhaps your way is better. Of course, if one lives near Grafs, its all a wash!]

[3006guns]

I've ordered primed brass in several calibers in the past and I don't require ever paying a hazmat fee........for primers alone, yes, but not for primed cases. Maybe something has changed in the postal regs?

[milprileb]

Let me quote USPS regulations: Nothing liquid, perishable or potentially hazardous.

Are you saying Wideners mails (or any vendor) you primed brass? That is news to me.

If they do, pls tell me and I will move my order to them

UPS : hazmat for primers is a fact. So why would primers inside brass not be hazmat?

I will call Wideners and find out but I am certain the logic of primed brass not needing hazmat
is flawed.

[mac60]

I bought some primed shotshell hulls recently from Gamaliel in Ky. and they shipped to me without a hazmat charge.

[thehouseproduct]

There is no Hazmat but primed brass does need to ship ORM-D like ammo.

[bumpo628]

I sure that you can not ship bulk primers through the USPS.

UPS is a different story though. No hazmat for primed brass makes sense because there is no risk of mass detonation. There is no hazmat fee for ammunition, right? Ammunition has powder and a projectile too.

[thehouseproduct]

Primed cases are held to same standards as loaded ammo. ORM-D or whatever they call it now.

[dodgyrog]

I'd love to know how I could get Berdan primers in the UK!!!
The only ones around are left over from the 70's. They work fine but are in very short supply.

[jonk]

Well I'd be in for some .217s suitable for 8mm, 7.5, etc.

[milprileb]

Contact Dominic at DAGAMMO.COM
if you want some.

Otherwise: SNOOOOOOZE YOU LOSE !