9mm mould questions

[Harry O]

I am looking for a 115-125gr round-nose bullet (NOT a SWC, flat-nose, or a hollow-point) for the 9mm Luger and Largo cartridges. The problem is that I am looking for one with a gas-check. I have not found one. If anyone out there knows of one, let me know.

I have tried several plain-base 9mm moulds with different hardnesses (up to Bhn 22) and three diameters (up to 0.358") and three types of lube (homemade, NRA 50-50, and SPG). Accuracy was originally nonexistent with Bhn 15, 0.356", and homemade lube. It improved to poor with Bhn 22, 0.358", and NRA 50-50 lube. This is with three different 9mm handguns. Jacketed bullets in all three guns gave much better accuracy -- not as good as my revolvers, but certainly acceptable for a semi-auto.

I use a 358156-GC with my .357 Magnum and it has absolutely no problem with full power loads. They are just as accurate as jacketed if I do my part. There are several other SWC's with GC's available for the .357 Magnum. The top pressure for the 9mm does not trail the .357 Magnum by a whole lot. Why are GC moulds for the 9mm so hard to find?

[gefiltephish]

Accurate Molds has 2, but sorry they are not exactly what you're looking for. I believe he'll make pretty much whatever you want though.
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-120A-D.png (TC)
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-125A-D.png (RNFP)

I haven't used either of those molds, but I've been thinking about it. I do have an Accurate for 30-30gc that shoots great. I really like his sprue plate and pivot screw set up. I had the mold in my hands in not more than 2 weeks after ordering.

I'm sure his aren't the only available and folks will chime in for other mold makers.

[MtGun44]

Because they are completely unnecessary, cost a lot more and are a PITA to install. You
might take the hint that a GC is not needed by the fact that nobody else is asking for
them, at least not enough that the suppliers find any market need to fulfull.

I wonder why your minded is so closed to the TC or RF plain based molds that have worked
for so many others?

Bill

[fecmech]

By the time you get through with the cost of checks and the hassle of casting and adding the checks you might want to consider buying jacketed bullets. Personally in 3 different 9MM guns with plain based bullets I have been able equal or exceed jacketed velocities with PB cast and equal or exceed the jacketed accuracy with those bullets. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[afish4570]

Try casting moderately hard bullets and sizing them 356, 357 and 358, as large as they will chamber and function in the gun. This may improve the accuracy and leading issues. afish4570

[lwknight]

I find that hard bullets work best in my 9mm.s and also that when using harder bullets and that the oversized that are more than 1/1000 over bore slug are less accurate.

[MtGun44]

Large helps, and is frequently the most critical change needed to stop leading and gain
accuracy. Harder than air cooled wheel weights is unnecessary and often worsens the leading.

Bill

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I might simply advise you to get one of Pat Marlin’s Gas check makers for plain base 35cals. That way you can simply crimp a gas check on any plain base 35/38cal mould you own.

[Harry O]

Because they are completely unnecessary, cost a lot more and are a PITA to install. You might take the hint that a GC is not needed by the fact that nobody else is asking for them, at least not enough that the suppliers find any market need to fulfull.

I wonder why your minded is so closed to the TC or RF plain based molds that have worked for so many other
Bill

You must be one of the guys the new "notice" on the front of the webpage talks about.

[Harry O]

Accurate Molds has 2, but sorry they are not exactly what you're looking for.

Thanks, but all of my 9mm's are old (1940's to 1960's). They handle only round-nose reliably. Flat-nose and hollowpoint don't work.

[Harry O]

To the others who have commented: Bhn 22 is the highest strength (hardest) I can easily get. I have gone to about 28 with heat treatment, but it more difficult and it does not last. The largest diameter I can get in the tightest chamber I have is 0.358".

When I first started, the bullets hit sideways on a target at 15 yards. It was impossible to keep them on the paper at that distance. When I went to the hardest mix and largest diameter I could get, they hit mostly straight on (I think there was still a slight yawing), and I could keep them on a 9" x 12" target. Unfortunately, they were all over the paper. With jacketed, the groups are 1/3 the size or occasionally better.

I am not sure where you guys are at, but while gas checks are not as cheap as they once were, but they are still a lot cheaper than jacketed bullets.

I guess my point is that if you check the records here, there is probably more discussion on how to get 9mm cast Luger bullets to work than any other handgun caliber. I have absolutely no problem with cast auto bullets from .32ACP to .45ACP, but they are a lot lower pressure. The 9mm Luger is a lot closer to the .357 Magnum in pressure than it is the .45ACP.

[deltaenterprizes]

What guns are you planning to use these boolits? Check the twist rate of your barrels.

[CPL Lou]

You must be one of the guys the new "notice" on the front of the webpage talks about.

No, he isn't.
His experience, I believe, has not gone to his head.
You asked for help, he shared information based on his experience, that's all.

You did not mention powder(s) used.
In my experience, slower powders (Unique, Blue Dot and HS6) work better then the fast powders.

My .02

[Harter66]

I will have to check my notes. I believe I'm getting about 1100 fps w/ a LEE tumble lube boolit w/Unique and 950 w/Red Dot,and a lube that is basically Barry Darrs.

I don't know you or your work up but will offer mine.

I start w/ a minimum load from the Lyman book . Load 5.
Step up .2gr load 5. Repeat for as many as it takes to get to the max load.
I shoot every load for accuracy on paper. Generally the 1st load fails to eject,and the 2 fails to feed or stove pipes.
The 3rd load will cycle and starts to close the group. For me in my HP clone.
From there I tweak the load and length.

I shoot 5 as I've found that my feed failures show up in the last 5 of all but 1 magazine. I think this method keeps me from hitting leading pressures and let's me find good accuracy too.

1 more thing I didn't see mentioned was brass . If you have some that is thick you may be swagging your boolit some. Thick brass/necks are the bane of more than a few of us. You might pull a round or 2 down an see if your swagging your boolit in the case.

[fecmech]

Thanks, but all of my 9mm's are old (1940's to 1960's). They handle only round-nose reliably. Flat-nose and hollowpoint don't work.

Harry--The truncated cone designs by Lee, Rcbs and Lyman will all feed in anything a RN will feed in. I think powder selection is a big factor and IMO Blue Dot is a very "cast friendly" powder in the 9MM. It has the advantage of being slow and bulky. I do not think you can dangerously overload a 9MM with any bullet wt and BD due the case capacity of the 9. Before you go the GC route try some BD and if you want to try some TC bullets I'll send you some @.358.

[MtGun44]

The orginal bullet design in the 9mm Luger was a truncated cone. The Lee 356 120 TC
is a truncate cone, it has a small flat point so may be called a flat nose by some, but is
an extremely reliable feeder, often working when there are problems with a round nosed
design.

As to gas checks, I again point out that if here were a significant need for GC in the
9mm, do you not think that the casters would be clamoring for them, and the mold makers
would be producing them? They are not common because they are not needed. The
solution to most leading in the 9mm is to increase the boolit size to .357 or .358, even
.359 for some, not "hard cast" or GCs, as is the conventional wisdom. Some guns are more
accurate with harder alloys because of very shallow rifling in some 9mm barrels.

Bill

[TomAM]

As a mold maker I can state that casters are indeed clamoring for gas checked designs for the semi-auto pistols, and that mold makers are indeed making them.

Not everyone marches to the same drum, and to some folks, the time and expense spent endlessly experimenting with special alloys, lubes, powders, lapping compounds, customized dies, and aftermarket barrels is far more inconvenient than spending a few minutes worth of income every month on gas checks.

[MtGun44]

HMMM. I found zero GC designs for 9mm on Lee's site. The Lyman site offers zero GC designs
for 9mm. RCBS's site isn't arranged by size or caliber so that I can be totally certain, but I couldn't
find any GC designs for 9mm. SAECO does list one GC design for 9mm/.38 Super, of the 12
designs that they catalog. Did I miss a major mold maker? Certainly we have a good number
of small, custom mold makers that work frequently with our members, and I have no good way
to check out their wide range of designs. Might be some GC 9mms there.

Sorry, one design doesn't seem very much like responding to clamoring to me. Your point that a
GC is a workable solution for leading is a point well taken. GCs DO work, in my experience. A
GC can be a quick shortcut to reduce leading when the user is either ignorant of the way to
do without GCs and/or is unwilling to study the topic. It is very clear that for the overwhelming number
of 9mm mold designs sold by the big mold makers, that GCs are not included. It would seem that
the mold makers recognize that GCs are not necessary in 9mm. Most loaders can fairly quickly
get one of the better plain base designs to work well.

In my view, for all handguns, GCs are a viable solution, but are not necessary with a good design
and lube.

Bill

[TomAM]

I certainly never suggested that the major mold makers were responsive to customer requests.

If we all cast the way that Lyman expects, we'd all be using undersized oval bullets made of #2 alloy.

[turbo1889]

My first gas checked boolit for the 9mm (you never forget your first love) was a 35893.

That boolit design is a spire point not a round nose and it is a little long in the base and takes up a little too much room in the case to be ideal for the 9mm cartridge. But oh did it ever work despite its imperfections for the application. The difference between it and a plain base design was utterly amazing. Granted I had already learned how to load and shoot PB boolits in the 9mm to good effect by trial and error along with some helpful hints along the way from the more experienced. But with that boolit I could break every rule in the book for loading cast lead in the 9mm except for using a properly sized boolit to fit the actual real groove diameter of the bore and get away with it. Alloy, lube, and powder burn rate it didn’t matter anymore like it had before.

I still load and shoot PB boolits in the 9mm cartridge but I also know the value of a gas checked design in that cartridge as well. One of my favorite uses for a GCed boolit in the 9mm is to cast the boolit dead soft with nearly pure lead with a little tin thrown in and then load them cranked up all the way to +P performance levels. No hollow point needed they mushroom real nice done up that way with a solid nose profile.

Heck, if you were to put up a group buy feeler thread for a 9mm boolit with a military ball nose shape, a single lube groove, and a gas check shank weighing in at about 130 grains or so you might be surprised how many people would be interested. Personally I like a RNFT (Round Nose Flat Tip) profile better for the most semi-auto pistol rounds then a pure RN and I can get that from the guys who lathe bore custom molds (got one from MM before I knew about AM) so I have no need for a group buy mold in that category but a lot of people do like a true RN profile.

[gefiltephish]

Another option for the OP is to design his own bullet at Mountain Molds (http://mountainmolds.com/).
One thing I've noticed in this thread is that most responders seem to keep addressing a leading issue whereas I believe the OP stated he has an accuracy issue. The guy sounds like he knows what he wants, why beat him up?

[rototerrier]

I had leading issues and solved them by changing things up...hardness, size, power and lube all worked together to form the correct recipe.

BUT, I would also be interested in a 9mm GC for both the fun and ease of it. I was just looking at some GC for my 38 special and if they made one for 9mm, I could probably work it for both.

[bowfin]

Is your 9mm Largo firearm a Spanish Destroyer rifle?

I know mine shoots very well, but it definitely prefers a roundnosed bullet.

[bowfin]

...ask and you shall receive:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/13838

Here is a previous thread on this gas check mold:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68560

[Harry O]

Thanks Bowfin. That looks to be exactly what I am looking for. I had looked at my sales catalogs (paper type, not internet type) and did not see that one. Also thanks for the truncated cone suggestion. I had not even thought of that one.

To the other questions asked, I have been reloading since the early 1960's, have been casting since the late 1980's, and currently load about 30 different calibers (including three that I have to form the cases myself). I am not a newbie. The problem was clearly stated as accuracy (or lack thereof) -- NOT leading. If I had a leading problem, I would have stated that. Seems that some people like telling others how stupid they are without bothering to read what was actually posted.

I have used several faster powders (Bullseye, W231, and Red Dot), but Unique is the most common one I use in this caliber. The 9mm guns I have currently are an Astra 400, a Star Super A, and a Star Super B. All are in very good to excellent condition. None of them have any accuracy problems with jacketed. I had a Browning Hi-Power and a Walther P-38 in the past, both with the same problems.

I agree entirely with TomAM "Not everyone marches to the same drum, and to some folks, the time and expense spent endlessly experimenting with special alloys, lubes, powders, lapping compounds, customized dies, and aftermarket barrels is far more inconvenient than spending a few minutes worth of income every month on gas checks."

I am not interested in wasting time chasing my tail when a simple gas-check will solve the problem. I have been through this before with a few other calibers. In some cases (usually rifles, but sometimes handguns), a gas-check is all that is needed with higher pressure cartridges.

[Cherokee]

Harry - You said you used .358 bullets as the largest that will chamber. Have you slugged the barrels ? .358 may still be too small for your barrels.

[garym1a2]

I would like to know how to put a gas check on the lee 120TC boolit. Not for my 9mm, but to run it in a 357 Rossi 1892 at 1800 fps or more.