BP bottle neck cartridges

[gunnut14]

I do not shoot a 45/70 so I am in need of a little information.
I shoot a 43 Mauser. It is a bottle neck case, not much of a bottleneck but still is considered one.
My question concerns BP compression.
All of the data I can find says "never compress an powder in a bottleneck cartridge".
Why?
If I want to get the recommended load of 75 grains of FFG it requires some compression. Is there another way to do it?

Any info you wish to share will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


gunnut14

[mustanggt]

Can't help you much with this except to say my blackpowder loading mentor said that bottleneck blackpowder cartridges are a PITA. You don't want to mess with it. He has dozens of modern replica and original Sharps rifles in straight and bottleneck cartridges so I will take his word for it. However if you are up for the challenge a challenge it will be. There are guys here and over on the Shiloh forum who can guide you through this I'm sure. Good luck.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The 43 Mauser is an excellent and accurate cartridge.

I shot a 71/84 for many years using GG and PP boolits. Use a drop tube. I used 78 grains GOEX FFg and compressed (after drop tubing) about 1/8" in seating and just straightened out the slight case mouth bell after seating to depth. 12" foam cups............no worries @ 300. Install a higher front sight and use the ladder sight. See the Olson book for sight leaf settings with the issue sight . BvT

[gunnut14]

Baron,
What is the name of the Olson book?
This is the first time I have seen anything that will give me any data and or history ( other than magazine articles) on the 71/84.
They are great rifles and shoot great with smokeless but I am determined to shoot one of mine with BP only and any data is worth looking up.
I do not envy the people that shoot Sharps, Remington, or Ballard rifles it is that is what almost all reloading data is for.



gunnut14

[martinibelgian]

Gunnut14,

There is only 1 reason why one shouldn't (heavily) compress BP in a BN round - and that's because heavy compression doesn't give good results accuracywise. After all, you cannot uniformly compress the powder column. No safety issues.

Still, they can and will shoot pretty well - at least as good as a straight cartridge. To ge the powder in, use a droptube, that will lower the level quite a bit. some light compression will work fine, no issues there. but they usually do their best work with very light to no compression. Taking that into account, it is pretty easy to work up loads. Also, it usually is best to use the heaviest bullet compatible with the barrel twist. Most people who claim they won't shoot usually are just repeating what they have been told, and have no experience with them.
True, some are harder to get to shoot than others (577-450 isn't that easy), but they will perform.
FWIW, 2 weeks ago I shot a Military rifle match at 200, ending in 2nd place - shooting a BN round (#2 Musket) in a bog-standard military rifle (Roumanian Steyr-Martini Model 1879). I shot a group of 3 MOA wide and a bit over 2 MOA high, ending with a score of 47/50. The winner? He shot another BN round, and scored 48... All shooting prone, with sling only, no rest.
11mm Mauser is very good, and I've been beaten quite a few times by a shooter using one - so you shouldn't have any issues there. BTW, try some Fg too - you might be surprised...

[Lead pot]

I shoot two .44-90 BN's and in the past I have had the .43 Spanish two .40 Rem and a .44-90 rem, all bottle necked cartridges and all with the exception of one of the .40 Remington's shot quite well and yes the BN shoots best with slight compression of .200" or less.
I have worked probably more with the .44-90 BN's from using no compression to compressing powder filled to the case mouth and compressing it till it's just above the shoulder and there are two levels of compression that shot well but the cases would suffer from separation right at the shoulder.
The extra compression of .580" or less I tried in the .44-90 did nothing but cost the extra brass expense and added recoil and had no benefit as far as accuracy.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The author's name was Ludwig Olson and I believe his book was named "the Bolt Action Mauser" or something close. Mine was new from the '60s imports , right out of the crate. FFFg Goex is the powder for BP. I could never get Fg or FFg to shoot goot as the FFFg.

I used the RCBS 44-350-FN which cast out as .447. The 43-xxx- xx Rcbs is for the 43 Spanish @ .439.

The bore is marked in metric on the original barrels and mine was right on. I got the groove by slugging, so .432" - .446. My sizer produced .4467. I used the .439 mould patched up, but never as good of accuracy as the RCBS 44 FN.

I reached the conclusion after many trials that GG of lead with about 10% WW and smokeless was as good as it gets for accuracy. BP accuracy was a bit less as it was harder to control fouling, because what worked yesterday would not work today if the weather changed very much. I used 5744 as as great powder for smokeless. The IMR were not very helpful. Doing it today I would go to VARGET for trials up to original duplication levels with a TP 1/2 sheet down hard on the powder from the start. TP for 5744 too. Good Shooting.

BvT

[RMulhern]

To each his own...but I'd rather try standing on my head and stacking greased BBs in a rolling boxcar with boxing gloves on than work with a BN!!

[Lead pot]

Rick.

Bottle necked cartridges are as good as the bottle necked containers Barley Pop comes in.
Never liked the straight containers. :drinks:

[martinibelgian]

Well Rick,

Allow me to remind you you once said the same about PP bullets? :)

[Lead pot]

He will learn some day:smile:

[RMulhern]

Well Rick,

Allow me to remind you you once said the same about PP bullets? :)

No need to.....but I still say they're more PITA than should be necessary!! We've already read about Kurt saying he's had case seperations using the BN and I'd bet that occurs more with the BN cartridges per shot fired...than with SS!![smilie=w:

[martinibelgian]

Rick,

for the moment my 45-70 W-W brass is in the lead - nothing on the drawn #2 Musket brass. Then again, I still have to do the PP thing in that one.
Now, when using HDPE wads in turned brass, that would give me case separations, true... But that's old, turned brass.

[Lead pot]

Rick.

Yes I have had some case necks pull off the .44-90 brass but it has always been when I loaded PP bullets using Swiss powder with out a lube wad under the bullet.
I think a lot of the problem with the BN cases is it has to be formed from parent bress that has been stretched formed and blown out again to match the chamber. The brass that has pulled apart is very thin at this point some as thin as .006"
I lost more cases with the .40-70 stretched .30-40 brass then I have with the bottle neck .44

[gunnut14]

Thanks all for the answers!
I feel a little better about shooting the 71/84 now.
Have shot it with some success with accuracy but only at 300 yards.
Am using 70 grains FFG, grease cookie , and 385 grain PP boolit.
I need to up the powder charge a little and that is the reason for asking about compression.

Thanks again


gunnut14

[The Double D]

Let me toss in this thought about compressing in BN cases using the BN case numbers I am familiar with, the 577/450 Martini.

The Martini cartridge powder chamber has a .590 diameter.

The Martini cartridge has .468 diameter neck.

How do you compress a .590 column of powder through a .468 neck?

[dave roelle]

To each his own...but I'd rather try standing on my head and stacking greased BBs in a rolling boxcar with boxing gloves on than work with a BN!!


Thats priceless [smilie=l:

[Lead pot]

The head on my .44-2-5/8 has a .512 and a .467 neck and there is no problem compressing the powder.600 if that is what you want but it is not a ideal load.

[Seth Hawkins]

I'm not having any problems with the 44 2-1/4 in my sharps. Accuracy improved with light compression. And I always keep the powder level in the neck.

[Lead pot]

:) Higher velocity is not always the answer :Fire: