Help with mold fillout

[Gswain]

Did my first cast today, lee 358158 TL SWC, and i kept having problems with wrinkly bullets. After reading much advice on the forums, i am fairly sure that this is a problem with the mold not being hot enough or the melt not being hot enough. Thing is, I was casting at 750 degrees, and the mold was hot enough that when dipped in the melt, the lead ran off easily. So now im wondering what would be causing this?

[Ben]

Can you describe how you cleaned the mold and with what ?

More info please.......are you using a bottom pour or a dipper ?

Ben

[HollowPoint]

When I first started casting I used lee bullet molds and still do.

I got the same kind of wrinkled bullets as you've described so I ended up dipping the corner of my mold into my melt for two or three minutes. I do this regardless of the name brand of the bullet mold.

This insured that when I poured my alloy into the mold it remained in a liquid state for a couple more minutes afterward.

I just kept a close eye on it till it solidified then immediately cut the sprue, ejected the cast bullets and started my casting session at that point.

At that point I knew my mold was hot enough and my alloy was hot enough so in theory there should be no reason you would continue to get wrinkled looking bullets.

Alot of guys will tell you to add more tin but, I've never had to do so. Whatever amount of tin is in my lead or alloy when I initially smelted it or melted it, is all that I've ever used.

Incidentally, I'm using the Lee Bottom Pour. I don't use a laddle; although many guys do with very good success.

HollowPoint

[HammerMTB]

I have quite a few Lee molds. When I first started casting, wrinkly boolits were my norm. I found out that most of the info sent with the mold is wrong. Don't smoke your mold. Do lube the pivot, the alignment pins, and I lube the bottom of the sprue plate and the top of the sprue countersink.
If you have cleaned your mold thoroughly, great. If not, you need to. I have some clean petroleum-based solvent I use to soak the mold halves first. I scrub them with an old paintbrush with its bristles cut off to 1/4". Then I blow it dry with air. Now a caution: I'm suggesting working with flammable liquids. Use care and common sense! Don't do it over a hot pot of lead or any open flame!
My next step is to use brake cleaner to remove all traces of the petro-solvent. Again, caution is the word. My brake cleaner is mostly 1,1,1 tricloroethane. It evaporates quickly, but is flammable, and the fumes from it are highly poisonous. Don't screw around!
I dry after a brake clean bath with air again, and set in a warm place to completely evaporate.
I use Bullplate sprue lube on the points mentioned above. Then I give the mold some break-in. First, set it in the molten lead. It will float on top. Leave it there for 30 seconds. Take it off, and let it cool enough to touch. If you want, you can make a few boolits now. I do cause I'm curious how they'll look. If you rush here, your boolits will be frosty and kinds ugly, but they would shoot if you chose.
Repeat the heat and cool 3 times.
You're ready to start making boolits.
They may look a little wrinkly at first, but that will go away as the mold breaks in. Don't worry about that too much, it doesn't affect the accuracy of the round. As long as the edges and base are well filled out, wrinkles on the body of the boolit are no trouble.

It used to be that a good Lee-menting was required on most every new Lee mold. The last few I have gotten have not needed it, and have been closer to my desired dia. than they used to be. That makes me happy! :bigsmyl2:

[David2011]

Wrinkling is caused by a cold or contaminated mold. If you got it really clean, then you're not getting it hot enough. The aluminum molds require a faster rhythm than iron or steel molds to keep them up to temperature so crank out the boolits as fast as you can. If the boolits go from shiny to frosted you're approaching too hot so slow down and give the mold few seconds to cool down between pours.

You might read the speed casting sticky. It has some great info on going fast and controlling the mold temperature. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=57105

David

[David2011]

Oh, yeah, forgot to mention a +1 for Bullplate Lube. It makes casting much easier.

David

[geargnasher]

All good advise above.

Now, once you get the mould cavities totall degreased and all the machining fluid soaked out of the pores, try again. Get your pot temp NO MORE than 700 degrees and leave it alone. Preheat your mould like you were, until lead won't stick to the outside. Preheat the sprue plate also by dipping the tab in the melt for 15 seconds or so. Set up an analog wall clock with a second hand in front of where you cast. Start casting with your preheated mould at the rate of ONE POUR EVERY 15 SECONDS until they start to get a satin "frost" appearance. Your wrinkles will disappear. You will probably need to slow down to about three pours a minute once you get the mould casting good, which shouldn't take more than ten or so on a preheated mould.

Gear

[Gswain]

Ok, tried scrubbing the mold cavities and faces out with acetone, problem still has not gone away. I think next i'll take the blocks off the handles, and completely soak and scrub them down in dawn and water with scotchbrite, maybe thatll do it. Im thinking there still must be machining fluids or something that are still in the metal somewhere I havent found yet. Will report back on success or failure, thanks for help!

[snuffy]

Keep that scotchbrite away from that mold!:roll:

It is abrasive enough to scratch it badly. Use an old tooth brush. or other nylon brush.

[R.M.]

I have to wonder how fast/slow you are filling the mold. If you fill it too slowly, the lead can start setting before you have it filled. Not a good way to get nice bullets.
Don't be afraid of having lead spill all over the mold. Just have a tin plate or cookie sheet under it to catch your spillage. As you get better, the spillage will all but go away, but pour fast.

[Gswain]

I should clarify a couple things, I am using a lee pro 4 20 lb bottom pour, and have it set up for a fairly fast flow. Fills 6 cavities with generous sprue plate in about 5 seconds. Alloy is WW + 1% tin, temp is around 700, just trying to aide in fillout. mold preheated so that the lead falls off of it. As for the scotchbrite, was just planning on using it lightly on cavity edges to help deburr them if there are any, and on the faces to help clean ventlines of any crap i can't see. If its that big a concern though ill stick to the toothbrush idea. Im fairly sure at this point the issue is with the mold not being clean enough, a more thourough cleaning will be in order.

[Iron Mike Golf]

Maybe you need to deepen your vent lines.

[geargnasher]

Gswain, you're not casting fast enough to get the mould hot. A mould that is still too cool for ideal casting will make shiny, wrinkled boolits no matter how clean it is. Those six-bangers are big heat sinks, just keep casting until it's hot enough. It's difficult to convey how much heat the moulds need for good fillout, but they need to be HOT.

Like I recommended, cast as fast as you can, cut the sprues when "just" set, not liquid but still soft, until your boolits are FROSTY. When you get to that point, you finally have the mould hot enough, or maybe just a little too hot. You need to know, for yourself, what that point is, so you will know how to adjust pace to keep the mould in it's happy place, where ever you decide that is. Until you get the mould hot enough for frosty boolits (on the hot side of ideal), you won't have any idea where the middle ground is.

Gear

[cbrick]

Sure sounds like a cool mold to me. Dipping the mold in the melt is a pre-heat, doubtfull it will get the mold up to casting temp, it's only a good start and saves on the number of pours to get it up to temp.

Aluminum disipates (looses) it's heat very quickly, probably much quicker than you may realize. Stop inspecting the bullets between pours. Once you start casting dump the bullets, close the mold & sprue plate as quickly as practicle and re-fill. Keep casting at this pace until the bullets start frosting, your mold should now be hot enough and the bullets should be well filled out. Now you can adjust the casting pace to keep the bullets well filled out.

You will never get well filled out bullets from any mold that is too cool. Your pot temp of 700 degrees is fine. Mold temp is the key and 700 degrees is well above proper mold casting temp and will get the mold plenty hot, can even get it too hot.

Rick

[Bret4207]

I'm with Gear and Rick, more heat. You have to remember pot temp and mould temp are two different citters. Like the man said, stop looking at he boolits and pick up the pace of pouring dumping. Every single nano second that mould is empty it's getting colder.

Also- with a lot of my moulds, especially with my Lee's, I've found it takes 3-4 heating/cooling cycles or casting sessions for them to straighten up and fly right. Keep at it, it'll come eventually.

[Recluse]

I'm with Gear and Rick, more heat. You have to remember pot temp and mould temp are two different citters. Like the man said, stop looking at he boolits and pick up the pace of pouring dumping. Every single nano second that mould is empty it's getting colder.

Also- with a lot of my moulds, especially with my Lee's, I've found it takes 3-4 heating/cooling cycles or casting sessions for them to straighten up and fly right. Keep at it, it'll come eventually.

I have this same boolit, and in fact, it is my undisputed Number One Best Shooting Boolit in my entire inventory.

However, the mold I have is a two-cavity--not a six. I do not like six-bangers as a general rule because I have the dickens of a time keeping the mold at a consistent temperature for all six cavities. Aluminum DOES dissipate temperature more rapidly than steel or iron.

But the two-bangers do very well for me.

What I have found with my two-cavity TL158SWC is that the mod has to be hot. Period. It also MUST be perfectly clean. With those microbands, any contamination will really hose things up. I also cast with my alloy quite a bit hotter for that particular boolit, plus I add just a dash more tin via some solder into the alloy.

Then, as Bret says, three or four casting cycles and I'm dropping perfect boolits.

:coffee:

[Gswain]

I sure do appreciate the advice guys, next session ill clean, then preheat the mold on a hotplate instead of the top of my furnace. I won't stop till i get frosty bullets as a point of reference, I think gear may be correct in I have grossly underestimated the amount of heat the mold needs.

[adrians]

Maybe you need to deepen your vent lines.

or at least clean them out with a very fine pointed scribe, go easy and slow ,
might help ,,,might not but its worth a shot :twisted::popcorn::evil:

[geargnasher]

I sure do appreciate the advice guys, next session ill clean, then preheat the mold on a hotplate instead of the top of my furnace. I won't stop till i get frosty bullets as a point of reference, I think gear may be correct in I have grossly underestimated the amount of heat the mold needs.

We see this a lot, someone with their first new Lee six-banger, can't get good fillout or broke the sprue cam handle trying to cut ice-cold sprues. They will swear on a stack of bibles that their mould is "plenty hot" and call the rest of us fools for saying it's not, but usually too cold ends up being the case. Hot enough to burn you instantly and badly is only about a third of the way to casting temperature. Think 400 degrees or more.

Like was mentioned, don't even look at your first ten pours, just cast quick and cut the sprues as soon as they are barely firm enough to not smear molten alloy across the top of the blocks. This will reduce wear and tear on the sprue plate and mechanism, and speed your casting process a bit. Don't dilly-dally around looking at your boolits while your mould is open, in the other hand, and cooling off. If you need a quick glance at them during the initial heat-up, do it after you cut the sprue but before dumping the boolits, leaving them in the mould for a few seconds will help preserve mould heat, and keep the temperature EVEN around the cavities. Aluminum moulds are bad about getting cool at the edges of the cavities in the blocks, where the metal is thin. This causes wrinkles around the parting line, especially in the band-groove area. Minimizing the amount of time the blocks are empty or open helps keep the heat evened-out.

Gear

[harvester]

Some of the magic is in using the hot plate to preheat and maintain heat when you need a rest. I use a cheap wallmart model set on medium heat on top of a 7.25 inch saw blade. Works like a charm and solved many of the same problems you are having with my Lee six banger molds.

[Gtek]

+1 on gear, just start casting. When I was a newb my confidence, cadence, where this hand goes, and so on. I just started going for it and worked into what has become some pretty smooth and rewarding sessions. Worst case you melt them again. It was my own fear of unknown that slowed and kept me from advancing. I learned to watch the sprue and count in head. Everbody swims a little different. Be safe. Gtek

[Gswain]

OK, wanted to update for everyone that helped with this. Everyone who said the mold was not hot enough, spot on. Got a hot plate, let the mold sit on the hot plate while my pot was heating, just left it on medium. Once my pot was up to temp, started casting. Apparently, the first run the mold was WAY too hot, because the lead stayed moulten for about a minute, then finally solidified. After that, let it cool off just a little, and started casting beautiful boolits! Thanks again all, and to anyone having a similar problem, take the advice of TRY to get your mold too hot, then back off from there.

[geargnasher]

Good on you. Does what I said in post#13 about exploring both extremes of the mould temperature spectrum make a little more sense now? Now you have a better idea of what "just right" is for that mould and alloy.

Also, did you notice how little time it took for the overheated mould to cool off to casting temperature? It takes even less time for it to cool from ideal to too cold, so keep up the pace it needs, you can cull your boolits, add sprues/ingots to the pot later, but when you're casting, just focus on that and maybe a quick glance at your boolit pile to make sure nothing's gone too terribly wrong.

Gear

[Gswain]

Good on you. Does what I said in post#13 about exploring both extremes of the mould temperature spectrum make a little more sense now? Now you have a better idea of what "just right" is for that mould and alloy.

Also, did you notice how little time it took for the overheated mould to cool off to casting temperature? It takes even less time for it to cool from ideal to too cold, so keep up the pace it needs, you can cull your boolits, add sprues/ingots to the pot later, but when you're casting, just focus on that and maybe a quick glance at your boolit pile to make sure nothing's gone too terribly wrong.

Gear

Absolutely helped. As you stated, I really was having a hard time comprehending just how long it takes to get a mold up to temp. [smilie=s: I slowed down a bit at one point, and had a couple of casts get wrinkly, but just doing a couple quick casts got me right back to where I needed to be. Now that I stop and think about it, there is ALOT of aluminum to act as a heatsink, especially in the smaller cav. aluminum 6 holers!. Thanks again. [smilie=w:

[geargnasher]

You're welcome, I think you have the hang of it now, the rest is cake. You'll also have a good idea of what to do if you get an iron or brass mould, or a significantly different aluminum one: Get it clean, and get it to the "right" temperature.

Gear

[Gswain]

On an interesting side note, I also did some casting with a 420gr RD mold, and wow is that ever a different beast than a 358158! the RD mold casts at a MUCH slower pace, and have to wait about 15 seconds after pouring to open the sprue plate or it smears, and that is with melt at 650! Just thought i'd add that for anyone else reading this, heavier boolit molds seem to cast at a slower pace.

[Bret4207]

The bigger the boolit the larger the heat source. It's just a matter to relative size or surface area. If your mould was relatively larger so that it was to the 420 gr what the 156 is to your other mould they would work more alike.

It's very nice to hear someone come back and acknowledge that the advice given was correct. Far too many times we get noobs who simply can't grasp the concept of pot temp/mould temp/fillout quality/etc. Drives you nuts after the 137th post asking the same question. It doesn't click and they almost invariably turn to adding tin or wondering about Zinc contamination. Guys like Gear don't hand out bad info.